Wife vs. Slave- The Cage Match
For once, this isn’t my internal battle. Not that I don’t ever find myself confusing the roles, that’s just not my post for today.
There’s an interesting debate going on over at Fet. about marriage proposals. The original question was about the idea of a slave being ordered to marry their Master rather than being asked and given the option of refusing.
The replies were a mixed bag as they usually are, though it seemed to lean more heavily toward the Master having to ask and the slave having the option of saying no.
And that seriously, seriously confuses me.
It just highlights the extreme differences in how people view M/s. Which doesn’t surprise me, except… Yeah. It does. Every time I’m confronted with how differently M/s is viewed, I’m surprised all over again. I can’t help it. I’m naive or stupid or whatever.
To me, it just seems very backwards to be M/s and then see a marriage proposal as optional.
I guess I see the commitment to being his slave as an already binding and permanent role so the very concept of having the option of refusing marriage- or refusing anything for that matter- is.. weird.
As I said over there: I take my commitment as his slave far more serously than marriage. I’ve been married before- it didn’t work. I have not been anyone else’s slave. That only works with him, so, for me, that’s a much deeper commitment.
Dissolve the marriage and we’d still be Master and slave. Dissolve the M/s- and we’d not be together. It’s not the marriage that binds us.
It’s almost like first birthing a kid and then later asking him if you can be his parent. You’re already the parent, there is no choosing after the fact.
Likewise, he already owned me. On what basis could I have possibly refused a marriage proposal??
I don’t know. Another case of me coming from Mars or something. Very very odd.
So what do you think?
Would you find an order to get married to be hot or not? (It’s hot in my book. A-fucking-men. Take my ass! Own it! Rawr!)
Do you see M/s as more of a partnership or, hmm, something less “extreme” as a marriage? Because that was the impression I was getting through reading the thread; that while accepting him/her as your Master was one thing, marriage was something else entirely and should not be entered into “lightly”– whereas I come from the complete opposite direction, that M/s should not be entered into “lightly”.
Of course, it was all ruined for me anyway as soon as the words “true” and “gift” entered into the convo. Gah. Stoopid romanticizing of M/s anyway. Leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Pa-tooey!
~cunt
LikeTags: M/s rambles
Uncategorized | kaya | 
Wednesday May 13th, 2009 7:47am
I’m glad you asked here because I really hate getting into those discussions there.
Being ordered to get married? HAWT. Yeah. In my brain–in r.l., I dunno, because he’d probably screw up the ceremony.
I read M/s as D/s, which shows where I’m coming from. I don’t consider myself a slave so I can’t answer that. On the other hand, when we started the D/s stuff, we talked about what a huge commitment it was. I think doing D/s stuff with him is a giant commitment, as great as, but different than (and obviously, related to), our “other” relationship stuff. Which is confusing. But the short version is that I agree with you–if you take someone as your Master/Sir/Ma’am/Special One(s)(sssszz), and they take you as theirs to own, you just signed something in blood and heart and sex-connection, and you better not think of it “lightly”.
I got to comment first!
You get a cookie! :D
Getting a cookie must be nice! :)
Seriously though, I’ve enjoyed reading you and I think whatever works for you (or any person) is great.
IMHO, marriage and slavery are both choices. The marriage has more legal ramifications. Your slavery, if publicy known, would socially make you outcasts, with him the
Victimizer and you the Victim.
One Master that I knew very well said he would never MARRY his slave. In his opinion, slaves are property and can be traded, sold or given away. Never married. That implies way too much equality. In fact, part of his ritual in accepting a slave was the symbolic (in amount) exchange of money. He literally bought her or rather she sold herself.
But I think, whatever works for you. Or anyone. For me, the M/S doesn’t work.
I don’t think there’s a manual on how-to-be the perfect M/s or D/s. Nope. Pretty sure it’s mostly OTJ training. :)
I still like reading you. You have such a gift for expressing yourself. :)
“if you take someone as your Master/Sir/Ma’am/Special One(s)(sssszz), and they take you as theirs to own, you just signed something in blood and heart and sex-connection, and you better not think of it “lightly”.”
But they do and I wish I could stop being shocked when I encounter it. It’s almost embarrassing.
It’s the same whenever the conversation gets around to tattoos or permanent markings from a Master to a slave. People get all “oooooh you better be careful! Thats permanent!” and I’m left thinking, well, duh it’s permanent. It’s supposed to be. It’s supposed to symbolize the permanency of your relationship.
*sigh*
I don’t doubt there are people out there rooting for our demise just so they can whap me upside the head with my (romantic and unrealistic?) idea of permanency. ;)
Do you forget your day to day life? You say one thing but live another. It was not that long ago you were packing your stuff and moving back. That was your choice, just as the marriage was.
You can say it is ordered, forever, whatever you want to call it. Yet, as you have demonstrated, you always have a choice.
But did I go? Could I go? I think a lot of things, I say a lot of things… but what did I DO?
Maybe you should go back and read some of your posts. Wasn’t money one of the main reasons you did not go?
I am not trying to argue with you, just asking you open your eyes to the bigger picture you want all of us to think you painted. You have fought with, screamed at, and was purposely defiant. So, are you the slave you write that you are, or are you the slave who submits to the things she chooses to? See what I am saying?
I mean really, not a one of us are slaves.
Being asked to marry someone does not make it better or worse. It might make your fantasy easier to acclimate yourself to, depending on the side of the fence you are standing on.
Money was not the reason I did not go. In fact, we had the money all worked out. We had a place for me to go to. It was all set up.
Maybe you should go back and read? Or maybe I don’t share as much as I think I do. It is awfully different to be the one living it than the one reading it. But maybe I will go back and read.
I have fought, screamed, kicked, rejected, hated, hit at, ripped collars off- oh yeah. You name it. I’ve thought it would never work, could never work, I may even think that again next week.
But I ain’t going anywhere. He knows it and I know it. No matter how bad it gets (and it’s gotten pretty bad sometimes).
I guess if you’re trying to get me to say that I contradict myself? Sure. I do. And?
“Being asked to marry someone does not make it better or worse.”
Never said it did.
Hey Kaya, checkin in. How are things w/ you? Im working on an LJ post because so much has happened I can’t even begin to say here. I know exactly what you mean by kicking and screaming.. heh.
Here: http://underhishand.com/keepin-it-real
so why exactly are you reading this blog? i mean alll you ever do is say how it’s not real, not good, and pretty much all but jump up and down screaming, “WHAT YOU”RE DOING IS STOOPID!”, and yet, you still come back, again and again, to post. which means to ME that you just can’t get enough of a life you don’t have.
and you proved nothing with little diatribe either. kaya still IS with her Master. she didn’t leave. “couldn’t” is really a relative term COULD she have been dragged away physically? COULD she have had someone take her away? sure. could she realistically go through the act of choosing to leave on her own? i think it’s pretty clear that she couldn’t.
and she didn’t. and anyhow, that is totally not the point of THis discussion anyhow., the point is, if you’ve already given control to another, what’s the big frickin deal of them telling you to sign a piece of paper, as opposed to ASKING you?
again, anonymous, you miss the point in favor of trying to discredit kaya here, and once again, you look ridiculous. it’s fun! keep going! i really like laughing at you.
Thank you!
I believe the reason that marriage should be “optional” is because it is a LEGAL binding agreement that effects more than just the relationship but other thing like insurance, legal rights of someone passes away etc. When your just M/s if it ends you dont have any rights legally were as if a marriage ends you do, expecially if there are children involved.
So when it come to the intimate relationship of a couple, no it doesnt make a difference, but because of the legalitize of the situation I believe that marriage should always be a discussion not a demand. Just my 2 cents…
i’m glad i was asked/proposed to, but i don’t identify as a slave. i would still be daddy’s little one if i weren’t married to daddy, but it was just another level in our relationship– not only is he taking care of me in a d/s sense, but in a legal sense, too. (obviously this situation is seriously unfair to those who can’t legally marry, but that’s another bitchfest for another time.)
as far as my opinions of m/s goes from a non-slave POV, it does seem silly that a slave would be given the option to refuse a marriage proposal. if they’ve already entered into a verbal agreement as master/mistress and slave, then it seems pretty silly to me that they would be given a choice to make of whether or not to marry.
i guess my disclaimer is that “master/slave” refers to people who are living together (or all-but-living-together, in the process of moving and combining households), and NOT people who are “online slaves” or in other situations where emotionally they may be committed to the dynamic, but distance, outside relationships, or other living situations prohibit the ability of the couple to maintain a full-time master/slave dynamic.
btw: being ordered to marry is fucking HOT.
and, actually, i was technically ordered to marry my daddy. he didn’t ask. he just said “marry me.” HOT HOT HOT.
“(obviously this situation is seriously unfair to those who can’t legally marry, but that’s another bitchfest for another time.)”
I agree.
“NOT people who are “online slaves” or in other situations where emotionally they may be committed to the dynamic, but distance, outside relationships, or other living situations prohibit the ability of the couple to maintain a full-time master/slave dynamic.”
Well, therein lies another ranty post but…. yeah. I’ll just leave it at that. ;)
i agree with you
Thanks. :)
See, now I’m right back to agreeing with you. ;)
I wish people would take ANY (romantic) relationship with the attitude of seriousness that surrounds potential-marriage and/or M/s-partner.
After which I confess I didn’t. But, I blame being 15 when we met. Tehe. 15 is a great age to blame on.
lol. 15 is a terrific scapegoat. ;)
I agree with you Kaya. Being owned is the superior commitment. If/when I marry my Owner, it will be secondary.
I think a certain segment of people on FetLife are sooo careful to be all PC about S&M relationships. They’re so quick to call out what they think is abuse. They’re constantly chirping about consent and freedoms, as if these relationships are egalitarian. That may work for them, but that’s not what I do in my relationship and I’m pretty sure that’s not what you do either.
Best,
Kitten
Agreed on all counts.
I share your confusion about this, but from the opposite point of view. Marriage is a legal distinction recognized by jurisdictions around the world while slavery is explicitly banned in this and most other countries. You can consider yourself whatever you wish, but you are not now and never will be a ‘slave’ in the truest sense of the word. You are a slave by choice which is another way of saying that you’re not a slave at all. Marriage, in this country anyway, is a far more serious a concept as it does bind you legally to another person. It’s true that marriages end (something you and I both share, BTW) but even the flimsiest Las Vegas wedding carries more legality, and thus more potential life-changing ramifications, than the staunchest pretend slavery ever will. And please don’t confuse the level of personal abuse you endure as a willing slave with the ruined credit, deep financial damage and broken homes which can result from a divorce. The former you accept willingly while the latter can be done to you unwillingly. They’re really not the same.
“You can consider yourself whatever you wish, but you are not now and never will be a ’slave’ in the truest sense of the word. You are a slave by choice which is another way of saying that you’re not a slave at all.”
Agreed. The “fantasy” is only what we make it. It works because we believe in it. You won’t get any argument from me there.
I don’t agree with the rest though, at least not from my personal stand point. Getting married, for me, served to secure me from ramifications more so than to put me at risk for them.
He married me to provide me with those securities because his idea of slavery prohibited me from attaining those securities on my own.
I suppose he’s put himself at risk should he ever think I’d use the court system to “ruin” him in a divorce- but what level of trust and commitment exists between a Master and slave if that worry is even a factor?
I dont know that I’m making myself clear at all.
I wasn’t denigrating marriage at all. People marry for all kinds of reasons, most of which are honorable and significant. Your marriage provided you with certain legal protections and advantages which your existing relationship could not– good for you! Marriage is a real, tangible social contract which can change your life forever for better or worse. It’s far more of a serious commitment than ‘slavery’ ever could be in our society, especialy since slavery isn’t a commitment at all- it’s a condition forced upon a person or persons against their will. By definition, no one can ever be a willing slave. I personally think the only people who would choose to consider themselves ‘slaves’ are those who really don’t understand the true nature of slavery. Slavery continues in parts of the world, and it ain’t a game.
Go get married, take your beatings, endure your whippings and have a good time. But please stop calling yourself a slave.
*head desk*
So your main goal here throughout your comments is a semantics war?
Wonderful. Lord knows we don’t have enough of those.
Okay fine. For the purpose of ending the ridiculousness of arguing terms, replace slave with submissive (or cunt or bitch or whore.. whatever). It really doesn’t matter what term is used. It doesn’t change what I said in the post or in my replies to you. The meaning is the same.
And, you’ve highlighted what I was saying about taking M/s seriously- and how people don’t.
Maybe they don’t because it’s not supported by the courts. It’s easy to play at it, pretend to commit or whatever.
Maybe I’m a dolt for taking it as seriously as I do.
I don’t need the law on my side for it to be serious. Whether or not the law would support how “ruined” I’d be if it ended, my own personal moral compass would. I agreed to certain things when I chose to be his and those things trump what the court would say.
Or so I choose to believe. Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned, though. ;-)
My point was only that you chose to be in the relationship and the conditions agreed upon by your and your ‘master’. What makes it simple submission instead of slavery isn’t that the courts would not recognize it; it’s that you could change your mind at any time. If your ‘master’ wanted you to fuck your children, would you? A slave would have no recourse, but you would. An always would, I hope.
Actually, you’re missing something. Your basic assumption here is the continuing of agreement. After entering a M/s-relationship, that point is no longer valid, as the M *can* bend his/hers slave however s-/he wants to.
I’ve given the point on a Swedish forum. If my Owner WANTED me to eat my cat for supper he COULD bend my will to the point where that would be normal and acceptable. He could NOT introduce the idea as in “Hey, let’s fry Disa for supper!” without me bucking like mad, but he COULD condition me to the point where I would. The same goes for sex with children. It’s entirely POSSIBLE.
Which is WHY we argue that choosing one’s M needs to be a careful process. M/s ISN’T something you go into with agreedupon terms – there aren’t terms other than the M’s. “His will, not mine” is the basic idea.
That clear enough?
It’s clear enough for me! ;)
Just curious. Were you asked to marry or ordered? Only asking out of interest.
Technically, both. He proposed to me very very early on in our relationship, but it was a couple of years before we moved from engaged to married.
I was afraid to get married. I was afraid it would change the dynamic, that the title change (from slave to wife) would affect the expectations and behaviors. So I was pretty content to just leave it as it was. I was his slave, I didn’t want to jeapordize that by becoming his wife.
So he ordered it. It really was more about the benefits than anything else. Tax breaks, insurance purposes, things like that. His decision to pull me out of the work force affected quite a bit more than just losing an income. Health insurance for myself and my kids, retirement, social security, all of that was a concern. He rectified it by marrying me.
Having been married before and had it be a complete and utter disaster, I would have to agree that M/s is definitely more of a commitment to me than marriage. It’s not just because of the fact that I am a slave either – it’s because I have given him full control over me and that is giving him my heart. I can “marry” anyone – whether I love them or not but I could not submit to just anyone.
Master and I will marry someday – not necessarily because it is important to me (I think that marriage is an unnecessary thing… a tradition written on a piece of paper for legal reasons) but because it is important to him to have the ability to say that I am his WIFE within the vanilla world. He will propose and there will be a ring and it will all be very vanilla I am sure. We are eloping though because I can’t be bothered wasting the time and money on a wedding.
If he ordered me to marry him? I would have problems with it. As I said, not very eager to get married. We live together and he owns me. Enough said. Oh, and as for the proposal? I want the bling dammit. lol
>Having been married before and had it be a complete and utter disaster, I would have to agree that M/s is definitely more of a commitment to me than marriage.
Maybe the second part of the sentence helps illuminate the first.
>I can “marry” anyone – whether I love them or not but I could not submit to just anyone.
It sounds like you really have little comprehension of what marriage is supposed to be. I think most people would say that they couldn’t just marry anyone for any reason.
>If he ordered me to marry him? I would have problems with it.
So what happened to that whole “he ownes me” stuff? Couldn’t he have you marry a donkey and fuck it for his amusement?
But why would he?
I don’t think you really have the concept of an Ms relationship either, though I come more from a Ds background than Ms…the whole thing is supposed to be based on trust and commitment.
Going within your initial argument, no one can actually legally marry a donkey, and I’m pretty sure it is also not legal to fuck a donkey as it gets into animal rights, proving the donkey wants to have sex with you, ect…
But, on a whole, a Master or Dom, wouldn’t have a slave/sub marry and a fuck a donkey(though sorry to anyone I offend by saying this if you have married/fucked a donkey).
Marriage is a commitment, in my mind, no more so or less so than an Ms relationship. However, I think it is a lot easier to get married, than to be fully engaged and committed to an Ms relationship of the same level, regardless of the legalities.
-Lydiab6
and sorry for the real lack of sentence structure, or use of periods. A lot of run-on sentences.
“>I can “marry” anyone – whether I love them or not but I could not submit to just anyone.
It sounds like you really have little comprehension of what marriage is supposed to be. I think most people would say that they couldn’t just marry anyone for any reason.”
I think you have an extremely romantic idea of marriage. Seriously, how many marriages still today are arranged by parents? How many people marry for money? Or because it was the “right thing to do”? Or to gain citizenship? Or for some other benefit unrelated to love?
Love and romance? Pfft.
“I can “marry” anyone – whether I love them or not but I could not submit to just anyone.”
Terrific point right there.
Kaya,
I’m afraid I’m going to wierd out on you. You see, I seem to understand both perspectives in this. First, I see where you’re coming from, I really do. Your slavery is, at it’s heart, a relationship, a deeply intense personal relationship with your Master. It came first, and is much more heart felt than the later marriage. I have a couple I’m friends with on the other coast who are the same way. They see the M/s as vastly more important than the marriage. I have freindships I put just as much imprtance in.
But, I also understand those people who see marriage as so much more than “simple” M/s. The reason is that for them, M/s is truly a simple relationship, something entered into and left easily (like actors and marriage LOL). For them, Mathonwy is literally correct, slavery is pretend to them and they can re-enter the “real world” with a moment’s thought. Thus, for them, being ordered into a marriage is simply unthinkable. Funny thing is, you can’t tell a pretending slave from a “real” slave such as yourself by looking, only by engaging them in seriously reflective conversation.
As for myself, I don’t see myself as seeking out a slave such as yourself, at least not on purpose. I’m more of a D/s person rather than an M/s person. I’m not saying I couldn’t find myself owning a truly willing slave, or that I’d dislike it if it happened; just that start from a position of, I believe you called it, a sensuous domination, where I centered my dominance on what the submissive wanted/needed. So if I found myself with soemone of your outlook, I’d be totally owning you and beating you black and blue on a regular basis, while if I was with someone like Meg from Persephone in Love, I’d be a totally different Dom. My pleasure comes from knowing I’ve met the needs/desires of my submissive (and from watching her orgasms–the single most lovely sight in the universe).
Dave
>Funny thing is, you can’t tell a pretending slave from a “real” slave such as yourself…
Dave! Get a grip, dude. Calling someone a slave doesn’t make it so. If it’s a choice, it ain’t slavery. It’s submission.
>My pleasure comes from knowing I’ve met the needs/desires of my submissive…
Uh,… so you bottom from the top?
Mathonwy,
There is a reason I put real in quotes. It’s because I don’t need to get a grip, I understand perfectly that Kaya isn’t a real slave like those poor souls in Sudan. There just wasn’t a better term to distinguish between what Kaya practices and the others I refered to.
As for botoming from the top? I like that. Can I use it in the future?
Dave
PS no hard feelings.
Dave, does that make you a submissive to the submissive? ;-)
Kaya,
Not exactly, but kind of. I suspect the hardest part is to convince the submissive I’m being mean and evil while she accidently gets what she wants. ;)
Dave
Service top is the phrase I’d use. When your motivation is them more so than yourself?
Kaya,
That sounds right. Them is my motivation because I take pleasure in seeing them in pleasure. Cool, lots of new phrases today. :)
Dave
This is where I get totally tripped up. LOL.
If it’s HIS pleasure to see HER pleasure, how does that make him a service top? If he was doing something for her, but not necessarily enjoying it or the effects… isn’t that more along the lines of bottoming from below?
If a Dom seeks his own gratification through that of his sub… what’s the biggie? How is that so different from seeking his own gratification through something she hates?
(BTW, I have a hard time with the whole term “service top” in the first place, so please forgive me… probably just reacting.)
-canti
PS. Meant ‘bottoming from above’ in that post. Duh.
“The reason is that for them, M/s is truly a simple relationship, something entered into and left easily (like actors and marriage LOL). ”
Well yeah. And I get surprised by that every time I run into it. *shrug*
Kaya,
I understand THAT they treat M/s so lightly, I don’t understand why, or how they can. If I were to enter into such a relationship myself, I can’t imagine it having less significance to me than a marriage. I don’t know, really. Having never been in either, it’s too hard to tell how I’d react, only how I’d want to.
Dave
I agree with you in that um, yeah, if you’re already his slave, then he should just tell you. But I’m betting that a lot of slaves were asked, simply because that’s the tradition, even though I think the slave thing is a much bigger deal than the marriage thing.
What I don’t understand is why people become slaves before getting married – I’ve just grown to see marriage as a really big deal, it’s something that I think binds you in a public and private way – and then if you’re willing to be that committed to someone, in front of family, friends, the rest of the community, saying to the world that this is the most important person in your life, why wouldn’t you do that before giving away all choice. In short – marriage is a really big deal – slavery is a really fucking big deal.
Granted, I’m not married or a slave so my opinion is kind of moot, but still.
“What I don’t understand is why people become slaves before getting married”
Could you talk more about that? I’m perplexed.
I mean, do you think someone inclined to be a slave should hold out for marriage first?
I agree with what I think Tulsa is trying to say, partially because that’s how my whole relationship with my Dominant is going.
We had no D/s dynamic when we started dating 5 years ago… we were just a regular couple of vanilla-y college kids who met and fell in love and also became best friends. We decided, because of personal reasons and religious beliefs, that we would wait until marriage to have sex.
Then, natural dominant parts of his personality and desires and submissive parts of my personality and desires started coming out. So, we discussed it, we implemented some things, and we set goals for “upping” the D/s quotient or role in our relationship or whatever for the future. Now, we have a Daddy/little girl way about our relationship that incorporates shameless spoiling (which we both enjoy), fairly strict rules, sadism/masochism, and other good stuff. It works for us… for now.
Five years into our relationship (just a few months ago), he proposed to me. We had talked a lot about wanting to be married, wanting to be together forever, and about how marriage would not only be the time when we could have sex (w00t!), but the time when he would transition into owning me completely.
So, yeah, it was nice to see him get down on his knee and present me with a really beautiful ring and ask me… old fashioned-like… especially knowing this is the last big decision I will ever make. And he really wanted to do that, because, in a way, that’s sort of like my consent for him to have all the power, and make all of the decisions. When we’re married, it’s over for me… and I look forward to that. I have our engagement to wrap my head around it. On that day, I no longer get a say, because he will have claimed me as his own. And it wasn’t like begging, but in order for him to know I really wanted it, (and to remind me later, because we all know sometimes we want to say we didn’t ask for something) he asked, and I got to answer however I wanted.
Well shoot. If there is sex there as the prize then no wonder! Hell, get married now! Today! I’m rootin’ for ya!
;-)
Kidding aside, I see what you are saying. I understand how that’s working for the two of you.
Lol @ sex as the prize.
You are hilarious.
Kaya is my favorite person today.
I don’t think they should “hold out” for marriage – if you want slavery then do slavery and skip the marriage – everyone knows what’s right for them in the end. But for me, when I think about slavery, when I think about what it entails, I can’t imagine doing that without marriage. I can’t imagine choosing to be that entwined with someone, being willing to give up so much, trusting someone so much. I see marriage as something that strengthens a relationship – it binds you closer to someone. Granted, there are a lot of other good, practical reasons to get married that I also believe in, but for the purpose of the discussion I guess I see marriage as another stepping stone.
I guess it’s more like how most people kiss before they fuck – generally (not always, and I’ve definitely fucked before kissing, so I understand that people don’t)kissing can be a way to further intimacy, sexual interest, etc, in a person so that you want to go to that next step – some kind of sex.
So I can see how going straight to slavery works for people – you want what you want and marriage seems like an unnecessary step. But I guess I’ve gotten much more cautious about relationships, and for me, I just imagine myself loving someone enough, being intertwined enough with them to marry them, far before I can imagine getting to the level of slavery.
But I also know that whirlwind of feeling that will make you do anything for someone, where logic goes out the window and you’re just going to do what feels right. Does this clarify it at all? I’m confused thinking about it, but I like sorting this out. Although I probably should have just posted something on FL since I never do :P
“Although I probably should have just posted something on FL since I never do”
Yeah. Yeah you should. :P
It does clarify. Thank you. I can even see where I split off from what you think, though I’m not sure I can explain it.
I think, probably because my previous marriages had been so awful, that I absolutely do NOT see marriage as a way to solidify or strengthen a relationship. So, yeah, to have gone straight to slavery and skip marriage was logical to me..lol. Marriage was the enemy.
I almost feel like I have to be his wife to be his slave… to get to the place where I will be ready/able to sort of let go and give up everything. Maybe that makes me strange or even a bad submissive/slave/whatever, I don’t know.
Meg,
Absolutely not! You’re just as good a slave/sub as anyone else, you’re just wired differently. It would be like saying you’re a failure as a woman because oyu don’t like coffee, or don’t like Brussles Sprouts.
Dave
“you’re a failure as a woman because oyu don’t like coffee”
No no no Dave. Not a failure as a *woman*, a failure as a HUMAN.
Coffee is the nectar of the Gods. *nods*
Kaya,
I guess I’m a failure then. I can’t stand the taste of coffee. The aroma, though, is heavenly. Of course, I love Brussels Sprouts.
Dave
I’d think someone with the name “Dave” would want to be a failure as a woman….
Oh geez, there I thought Dave got me off the hook, but I actually hate coffee….
I love chocolate though, so there might be some redemption for me yet.
Indeed. Chocolate redeems everybody. *nods*
I can’t imagine why you’d think that makes you strange or bad. It makes you you, and it means that you know what you need and that’s never a bad thing.
I think that how I feel about it makes me strange..lol
Maybe I’ve read too many judg-y conversations about how slaves and submissives are SUPPOSED.TO.BE. because I got that idea from every single one… that I’m DOING.IT.WRONG. Lol
When there are no rules, it is impossible to “do it wrong”. I think what we (and those who think like I do) rail so vehemently against, is being told that we are doing it wrong, quite possibly to the extent that we’re pushing that same sentiment onto those who tell us that.
But, the fact remains that I have never encountered anyone who is “doing it wrong”. Not ever. If the people involved are happy and it’s working, then obviously they are doing it right.
What bothered me so about the original thread is that it was implied that any Master who orders marriage does so from a place of insecurity (or something like that)- in other words, we did it wrong.
And I disagree with that, obviously. So, if, in my defense of why it’s not wrong and is, in fact, right, I then made you feel wrong, I sincerely apologize.
:-)
No… not you. You rock. ;-)
“I see marriage as something that strengthens a relationship – it binds you closer to someone.”
See, I have to disagree. I said basically the opposite in a post I wrote called Collars and Rings (I think that was the name…)
Because IF that were the case, because homosexual couples can’t marry in most states, or because some people choose not to get married, or because polyamorous families cannot share the bonds of marriage – it would imply none of those people can have relationships as “strong” and “bonded” as those of us who CAN marry.
And I just don’t buy that.
~Chloe
Thank you, Chloe.
swan
I wasn’t implying that at all – I want that to be clear – marriage is ONE thing, one tool, that strengthens a relationship among a whole bunch of other things (like spending time with someone, sharing common interests, etc).
It does NOT imply that other relationships are less so because they can’t be bound by married. It DOES imply that people in relationships that aren’t married probably have to work harder at their relationships to keep themselves bound and determined to be and stay with someone through the hard times. Married or not married, long term relationships seem difficult overall – relationships take work no matter what kind – and I think marriage can help sustain certain ones.
For some people keeping that commitment is probably easier than others, and marriage (or threat of divorce) is one way to keep a check on that for those who choose to do it, and I think it’s another reason why everyone should be able to get married that wants to – no matter their orientation.
A D/s relationship is not one thing. Some people have relationships in which D/s is part of the dynamic, others have relationships in which they try to be ‘property’ and want to be owned fully. And there are bazillion other ways to have a relationship with BDSM, so obviously people will have different opinions.
My Dom and I have been togerther for 3.5 years, and we’ve been living together for one year. D/s is not a on or off thing for me, it’s something that has grown and still is growing. I don’t start with “I’m now yours, so obviously you can now do anything you want with me”, it started smaller than that. And it still is smaller than that. I don’t use the word slave, but I think I understand what you mean by that, and I don’t intend to become that. I will always be my own person. And although the D/s in my current relationship is strong, our primary relationship is a partner-relationship. I’d still be his partner is I wasn’t his sub. I wouldn’t be his sub if I wasn’t his partner.
I sometimes enter into relationship lighty. I think the only true way to find out if a relationship will work is to try it. I start slow and small, and it gradually becomes bigger. I don’t think starting a D/s relationship means you become full-TPE-to-da-max slave instantly. Fotr me, it’s like any relationship. You start small, go on a date, etc.
There might come a time when it would be apropriate in our relationship for him to order me to marry him. But at this stage? No. Maybe in 5 years, 10 years. Maybe never. I AM his sub, and we do have a ’24/7′ D/s relationship. But that doesn’t mean I have (or want) the kind of relationship you have :).
“I’d still be his partner is I wasn’t his sub. I wouldn’t be his sub if I wasn’t his partner.”
Yeah, completely the opposite on my end. :)
OMFG, I can’t even TELL you how many times I’ve fantasized that my marriage “proposal” will come WITHOUT the words “Will you…” preceding “marry me.”
I’m going to squeal just thinking about it… Omg.
I JUST want to hear him say “Marry me.” Thazit.
Adding “will you” in front just sounds like… Fuck, it sounds like he’s begging. My Master doesn’t beg me for anything. Ever. EVER EVER EVER.
I don’t care either way how he leads up to saying it, but I want just the two words when it comes to the actual proposal, no question mark, baby. NONE! OMG HOT HOT HOT HOT *melts* That, to me, would make the PERFECT “proposal.” I mean, I’m a girl, and I want him to plan it and to make it NICE and blah blah blah… But that’s my girly nature talking. The real fantasy lies in the wording.
Marry me. Simple, direct. An order.
I’ve thought about that marriage “proposal” scenario like nine billion times… Today.
Mmmmm….
Joking aside… I guess the way I see it is this: In order for to have an issue with a marriage order instead of a marriage proposal, I’d have to view marriage as a DEEPER commitment than slavery. And I don’t.
If someone else views it as a deeper commitment, I can get why they have reservations about that order. I wouldn’t “get” their personal brand of M/s, perhaps, but I’d get why they want a choice.
~Chloe
I have the same reaction. It’s begging.. or feels like begging, which feels weak and that feels icky and… no. No thanks.
And, to me? Marriage is so much LESS than M/s. Because, fuck it all, the legal resources protect me. They bind him, in real ways, to certain obligations- and I don’t like that.
Bah. I know what I’m trying to say but I’m running out of time to say it. I’ll be back!
“Because, fuck it all, the legal resources protect me. They bind him, in real ways, to certain obligations- and I don’t like that.”
And THIS is why I read your blog… I never even thought about that… Huh. Wow. I over-think everything and that never managed to cross my mind.
Now I have to sit and think. (Damn.)
~Chloe
Forced marriage?
That’s beyond hot. It’s the hottest of the hot. And I want a forced honeymoon, too!
Oh yes. Force me to go on a honeymoon..lol. Where to? Hawaii? Bahamas? Paris? Force me baby! ;)
A basement! A hot fucking BDSM basement!
Heh. I’m bored today, so I’m trolling the comments.
I don’t think 15 is a good scapegoat at all lol. I was 14 when hubby and I met and 16 when we got married and tomorrow is our 12th wedding anniversary. People still think we are newlyweds : )
As for this discussion I can see it from so many angles I am arguing with myself. I guess the answer depends on the true nature or your m/s relationship and since everyone has a different opinion on that they also have a different opinion on the priority a marriage would take. I think that the legalities of a marriage and what is entailed makes it something different that the decision should not be part of the m/s relationship. I think neither should be entered into lightly or without careful consideration of all possible outcomes and the decision made with those in mind. I am coming from a common law community property state which probably makes a difference in the way I view marriage. I also see marriage much the way you do slavery that it is a forever deal. When I said forever I meant it so I made damn sure I was sure.
I wonder if the reason I see it differently is because my previous marriage certainly was NOT a forever deal and it was embarrassingly easy to rid myself of.
I don’t feel that way about the M/s. Not even close. So, yeah, this is forever and I don’t need any law to back it up. It’s internal I suppose.
Pffft. 15 is a PERFECT scapegoat! Though I’m 20 now, so we’ve been together for 4½ years now. Will that ever stop working as a scapegoat, I wonder? ;)
Seriously though. I didn’t think through who I fell in love with. I didn’t think through who I was giving myself to, why and what he wanted for the future, for me and for him. Which is exactly why we’re here, struggling with the ugly compability issues. Not “you don’t hang your towel up!”-compability, but “I’m sorry, I can’t even pretend to Top you in a scene where you order me to!”-compability. Hell, it’s so basic it’s down to what I fucking like to EAT and how much toiletpaper I use!
… I still love him and am oddly very happy though. It’s just a rough spot. Roughspots come and go, they’re never enough to give up on the relationship. People today divorce too easily, and I’m not going to be in that statistic. Not that I will anyway, we’re not married. But you see my point, yeah?
“To me, it just seems very backwards to be M/s and then see a marriage proposal as optional.
I guess I see the commitment to being his slave as an already binding and permanent role so the very concept of having the option of refusing marriage- or refusing anything for that matter- is.. weird.”
For Master and myself, the bond between us is much stronger than our upcoming wedding. But, the proposal was VERY important to me, mostly because i am a huge girly girl, and so is “tradition” to a degree. If Master would have said “You are going to marry me” i would have been like ok, no problem. When? Where? lol. But, by proposing to me, and following “tradition” and romancing me…. well, it feels nice. lol. i appreciate things like that… but that’s just me :) i don’t see a proposal as an option to say no, it’s more of following a tradition and romancing the lady :)
I do understand the attraction to romance and tradition, for sure.
What I didn’t understand in the thread was the notion that a Master who doesn’t ask (propose) is doing so from a place of insecurity- being “afraid” she’d refuse. Does that make sense?
Clearly, that wasn’t why he proposed to you. So, yanno, thats just sweet. I get ‘girly girl’. I’m one too! (sort of)
That’s how it was for me… so swoony romantic.
Until recently I was VERY opposed to getting married again. I thought my first marriage would be forever, and yet, when it had all fallen apart and I no longer felt a connection with my ex it was very easy to dispose of the marriage. Complicated legally but easy to end emotionally. Now, I have realized that the commitment that I have as Sir’s collared submissive is sooo much deeper than any relationship I have ever had. If He wanted us to be married I couldn’t refuse Him. It wouldn’t matter if He asked me or ordered me, the answer/result would be the same. I guess that is how I see this issue. It is only the Owner/Master/Dom’s choice of how He wants to present the proposal…..if you are truly committed as His slave/submissive then your answer would be to get married no matter how they presented it. Maybe asking is a test of your commitment? If you said ‘no’ wouldn’t that tell them you weren’t as truly willing to be their’s forever as you say you are?
Just my humble opinion.
“It wouldn’t matter if He asked me or ordered me, the answer/result would be the same.”
Exactly! And what was being presented in the thread was that if a master *ordered* it, it meant something was wrong within the relationship.
Which just doesn’t make sense to me. Because I don’t see what difference it makes if he asks or orders, the relationship and commitment should already be there IF a couple if M/s or D/s or whatever.
Right? Right!
RIGHT!!
Ok, so I’ve been thinking about this some more…..
I think the difference between being asked and ordered can be seen in different ways.
The Dom/Domme/whatever could ask to see what the honest answer is, to find out how complete the submission of the other is.
The mood could determine how the words flow from the person.
Or, as I ‘imagine’ would be if it happened in my case…it would be asked because of the natural underlying gentlemanlyness (sorry making up words) and respect for me the sub. Chivalry if you will.
I don’t get how proposing in the form of a question can be viewed as wrong…that’s like saying if you don’t have a formal collaring with witnesses you aren’t really collared….PPL FRUSTRATE ME!
I’ll take marriage for $200 Alex :) lol
“I don’t get how proposing in the form of a question can be viewed as wrong”
It’s not. And neither is proposing in the form of being ordered. Which is what was being said. Order=wrong, asking=right.
“PPL FRUSTRATE ME!”
Me too!
I completely agree with you. Of course, that’s probably your fault because you brainwashed me. Oh! I mean, you helped me shape my own internal definition of a slave. :D
The people who are acting like it’s a huge deal are all either religious, or they full recognize that they are playacting and that ‘out’ is always there. I don’t personally have an out. It’s not an option for me to leave, and that’s a lot more than just circumstances like the fact that I don’t drive. I couldn’t imagine even attempting to go.
Of course, all of this marriage crap is absolutely irrelevant to us currently, and WHEN (no, damnit, not if) we can get married…well, I’ve been bugging him to marry me since before we were even a couple, so that’ll be the easy part. :D
The religion aspect came out later in the thread and, yeah, that played a huge part in why they feel the way they do. Which makes sense that I wouldn’t see it that way considering my budding atheism and what have ya.
Am is keeping track of states passing the marriage laws. :)
You have me singing “She’ll be coming ’round the mountain when she comes… when she comes!” all because i went to my last read post which was entitled, appropriately, “she’ll be coming ’round the mountain”.
Thanks. Bitch.
:-)
I miss blogging but there’s nothing to blog about. I seem to be having a rough adjustment as of late and there’s nothing to say positive. Oh well. Maybe it will take a beating… Thought i’d stop in and say i’m so happy you decided to stay on board and while i don’t know the stresses of balancing family & slavery, i know the fucking hassles of balancing normalcy- school, work, trying to please everyone and putting yourself last without asking for much or getting anything in return.
So while they’re not too alike, i am glad you came back to post anyway. Some days just plain fucking suck. Mother’s Day was tough for me, for obvious reasons. Anyway, saying hi again after being MIA for awhile and look forward to further introspective reading and any inspiration you can conjure up over here.
:-)
toy
Hugs.
Maybe someday soon I can actually do that in person. ;)
ok… ain’t no way i am gonna read the 76 !!! comments before mine.. to see if i am at least in the same chapter .. maybe even the same page as your other readers……..
i say.. Master says “marry me” the slave says “Yes Sir” there just isn’t any other answer … is there??
morningstar (owned by Warren)
Dammit. How do you sum it up so succinctly? Now that’s talent. :)
Oh boy.
Lots of places where this whole conversation wraps up in my head and my heart and leaves me thinking things — and that can get confused, so I’ll probably come back to this on my own blog, but here’s the set of ideas in my head at this particular point:
Marriage is not “more” simply because it is legally recognized. Those legal sanctions give participants in marriage more rights and more privileges, and that is a cultural, societal bias and an injustice, but it doesn’t make marriage more valid or more “real” than other kinds of relationship dynamics.
“Slavery” as a power based dynamic is not “less” simply because it is not legally sanctioned. There are certainly those in the lifestyle who “play” at this, but there are those who “play” at marriage in a variety of ways. Again, we are talking cultural and societal bias and prejudice.
I cannot marry. I AM His slave. The two are different. Comparing them is nearly impossible. It is like trying to compare an orange and a bowling ball. They are both round, but…
He occasionally states that if it were legally possible, He would marry me. He does not ever say that if it were legally possible, He would ask me to marry Him. Honestly? I have a twitchy place about the idea of marriage between us, but it is because of our polyamory relational model. I have enough trouble with the FACT of poly as things stand — a marriage would add another layer of cultural assumptions that I’d have to struggle with. On a day when I’m feeling ouchy about the latest “incoming” twat, I fantasize about never agreeing to marry knowing that’s the deal. But then, I sometimes fantasize about retiring to an Island in the Caribbean too…
swan
Yes.
I’d say more but I’d only be repeating your words back to you. So, yes.
*deep breaths*
Telling me we ARE getting married, “you WILL be my wife, slut, it is inevitable”, is fucking hawt and intensity and wonderfulness and *bursts of stars everywhere of light and gladness*…
Anyone who doesn’t get that kind of turn-on, that gut-reaction of goodness and depth, okay, then, fine; good-o, right-o, fucking-a, continue on with your lives…but don’t pipe up and tell those of us who find it hot as hell it isn’t hot.
Go hang elsewhere and debate your semantic arguments with those who enjoy the dry snapping sound of twigs that have long lost their juice and vigour.
Exactly!
swan
Thank you! That’s exactly what I meant to say..lol
I think that M/s or D/s for that matter (since that’s where I place myself) is more permanent for me than marriage. Master and I have talked and admit to each other that if the power exchange ended we would be over; married or not.
I would love to be proposed to someday though and knowing that Master is a romantic it will be powerfully so. I also know that my saying yes would just be a part of the ritual. He already owns me.
Being new to this lifestyle and my Master, all I can add to this is that when we started, Master said that He had never been closer to anyone then he is to His slave(me).To us, it is a deeper committment then marriage..you can leave a marriage but i can not ever leave my Master. All my will is His..it became that the day He collared His slave. Master said that if we ever decide to have children, then we would marry for their protection and security..not because it would make us any closer or more committed to each other. Maybe it sounds very romantic to some or very stupid to others..but for us..it is our lives until dead do us part…wildrose
Seriously? So you live where? In the Sudan?
So you didn’t accept his collar,he collared you? And you cannot ever leave your Master? Ever?
That is so online Gor.
Seriously.
Whew thought I’d never make it to comment lol… Only skimmed comments above. Wanted to give my view… I was married twice and both marriages failed, I had my first BDSM relationship with my second husband…it hurt *me* more to see the M/s portion of our relationship destroyed then our marriage. I’m now with my M of almost a year so yes it is still “new” but now that I know what the hell I’m doing as s things are better then any relationship I’ve been in, including marriages. I think the idea of a forced marriage is very hot but I also know my Master would never force anything I could not handle or was not ready for. To me what it comes down to is when I made the choice to become s to my M I did so knowing and trusting that he would not force me to do anything that is harmful to myself or anyone I care for, so all these “what if your Master forced you to do xYZ” does not hold any bearing to me…
I guess it would depend on the people themselves, but the way I view the slave being forced into marriage is far different than slavery itself. Both should be choices made consciously. Also, marriage has legal ramifications and obligations that may make it difficult and even impossible to have a slave forced into it…
Not that M/s is less important, or not as serious of a comittment, but a slave being forced into marriage just doesn’t sit right with me, even if it is logical as you’ve potrayed it in this post.
you may be over this topic already or may have answered it in one of the 104 comments before mine (sorry, couldn’t read them all) but you say that without M/s you and him wouldn’t be together. A while back though, you were seriously wondering (theoretically or otherwise) what would happen if M/s was no longer a part of your lives. What if he said one day that he didn’t want to do it anymore? Could you just throw everything you have with him away? Or be vanilla like he wants?
I’m also ignoring the 5,000 comments ahead of mine, so apologies (but, um, I guess not really, since I couldn’t be bothered to read and check!) if I’m repeating someone else….
The difference for us is simply in the eyes of the law. I “married” my Master in my mind when I agreed to be his slave (which makes it very awkward that it was on our first proper date — don’t ask about the *improper* ones! — and I was ostensibly involved with someone else at that time!) … however, the law didn’t recognize that relationship: just us.
Once we got married, he became the person with real legal rights to me — he is the one who gets called in an emergency, he gets all my stuff if I die, etc. That does make a real difference: a wonderful one that only added to our M/s.
Of course, the fact that I really, actually promised “to honour and to love, to obey and to serve” him … that did make our marriage ceremony somewhat more relevant (to M/s, not love!) than some peoples…!
Anyway, I’m just delighted I get both! :D
I understand you but how do you take this situation.
Another blog I read the woman is married but can’t get anything like she wants/needs from hubby so she found her Dom/Master in someone else and the way she talks about him and the way she is connected to him I seriously get confused as to how she can stay married to vanilla hubby
her blog is here. http://waiting4him.wordpress.com/
Ahhhh…i followed a link from my stats page, here…perhaps something that could have been asked on my blog.
As far as kaya’s post…i agree with you, how can you refuse when you are already owned…it is just an addition to the relationship you already have…IMO.
And to answer becker’s question…It is complicated…there are children involved…it is a very difficult situation, that has to work for now, the way it is. Feel free to leave a comment over at my blog…we don’t bite. lol ;) (well i don’t anyway…JB is another story)
(((hugs)))
lc