What say you?
“slaves cannot meaningfully consent since they have no veto.”
(yanked from a TSR thread, in a comment by Tanos.)
That line keeps rolling around in my head, like there is something of great importance attached to it.
If one doesn’t have the power to refuse, then they also never had the power to accept.
This seems to blow the whole concept of “consent” right out of the water.
My brain has siezed. Any thoughts?
Tags: brainwashing, M/s rambles, opinions
Uncategorized | kaya | 
Wednesday January 30th, 2008 11:12am
Isn´t this about consensual nonconsent?
There was a time (before i became a slave) when i could both accept and refuse. Then i choose to let go of that possibility and since then i can´t refuse my Owner and therefore my consent is meaningless.
I’m not sure. How can a slave even consent to nonconsent if there is no power TO consent in the first place?
I dunno. I’m kind of hung up on that one time transfer of power, or consent, in the beginning.
Is he talking the initial one time consent or continual consent? I do think a person has the right to refuse in the initial consent, but afterwards, yeah, I do think consent is gone, and its not something easily regained once lost. Then again, I know a lot of people who operate in relationships that they consider to be 24/7 slavery where the slave does have a vote, if only a 10-90% guaranteed lose. I think that slave still has a kind of consent in those situations.
This actually makes perfect sense to me, but I pretty much consider TPE relationships a very structured, slow form of brainwashing. I’m not saying this is a bad thing (although it can be), but I kind of just want to call it like it is. It’s a choice to be brainwashed, but nonetheless brainwashing – you’re becoming an extension of someone else.
Maybe I botched this totally. It’s been awhile since I’ve dabbled in BDSM Theory 486
In the discussion that he used that line in, the topic was “can a slave be raped”. What he said was, a slave is ALWAYS being raped, because they cannot give meaningful consent and sex without consent is rape. (I should add that he was giving several theories, and may not think that exclusively about rape).
I dunno. I’m gonna think on that line. I’m not even sure why it’s hit me as it has yet.
I agree with you about the brainwashing, btw. 100%.
I know this is totally illogical but I guess I feel something different about sex, and therefore rape. For me, rape can be inherent even with a loud and clear yes, and you can consent to sex even saying no. It goes beyond consent and into something with your body. Maybe it’s because it’s something primal… And the people involved know what happens there even if something isn’t said.
This is all interesting though.
My opinion on that question (Can a slave be raped?) isn’t a very popular one. I believe that slaves can be raped, but, unless it’s by someone who doesn’t own her and hasn’t been given permission to take her (by the person who owns her), it doesn’t matter. She shouldn’t have refused in the first place. Unless, of course, she’s been directed to refuse without a direct order from her owner. And then, still, if the person was given permission by her owner to take her then it doesn’t matter. Maybe her owner should have communicated his wish to her but he doesn’t really have to.
Disclaimer: I’m not saying this should be common practice. Allowing one’s property to be raped could raise some serious trust issues and also cause serious mental damage. Rape fantasies, while common, should be acted on with caution and care, if at all.
I couldn’t agree with you more.
I think that slaves do have meaningful consent. We consented to being in this lifestyle, we consented to being collared, we consented to not having any consent. (How many times can one word be used repeatedly) In my opinion, it goes along with the other post you did about no limits. As an example, if your Master told you to go rob a bank, if you gave away your power of consent and don’t have the option of saying no, then you’d have to rob the bank and go to jail. However, most slaves would (hopefully)say “no, Sir, I’m not robbing the bank” and therefore didn’t consent to what he wanted and used their veto power. Now, I understand this was an extremem example and most Masters wouldn’t order their slaves to do something illegal, but hopefully, you get my point.
But the theory is that if one maintains veto power, they aren’t “enslaved” yet.
So maybe, once again, it’s a question of semantics?
i think this goes along with another comment that i read once about TPE, (it was actually used by the person who first coined the phrase TPE, so this is the definition of the first guy who ever said TPE in the first place) wherein it was stated that one KNOWS that actual, complete TPE is essentially an “unattainable” and that the striving is to become as close as possible to that “unattainable” standards.
it is very much like christians and their striving to live “christlike” lives. christ was a perfect standard that no human CAN live up to. it’s simply not possible, but the goal is to get as close to that as you can.
personally, if TPE IS attainable, i want no part of it, but that’s me. i want to always be able to separate enough to say, “no sir, i won’t rob the bank”… and i do agree that technically, if they can say, “no sir, i won’t rob the bank” then they aren’t completely enslaved.
i don’t think YOU are “completely enslaved” yet, though i get the feeling you intend to be. (your brainwashing statements, and the fact that you think that is acceptable in training you to be his complete poropterty make it kind of clear.) i dont’ think i am, nor do i think i will ever be, because i think total enslavement is one of those “unattainables.” and i also know that my owner will not “brainwash” me. he seems to like me choosing, every day, to submit or not.
now, we have an M/s dynamic that i think is an absolute, because i only have one choice. i follow his wishes, or our dynamic is over. end of story. there is no negotiation. there is no, “i dont’ want to do that” and we still stay M/s. the moment i refuse His commands, i have chosen not to give over. i have made this a situation of negotiation instead of a situation of absolute.
when i say i am M/s, then i mean that in the dynamic i am in, there is an absolute power exchange. it is black/white, either/or. there is NO gray. it is either follow, and be his, or not, and be not-His, which means i am not a slave. period.
that is a definite. TPE is a work-in-progress, a journey, an ataining, and i believe that at least for me, it is an unattainable one. and that’s okay with us.
did that make sense?
interestingly, what defines my relationship as Dominant/submissive rather than Master/slave is that i currently have an exit option – which is what it sounds like you’re describing, unless i’m mistaken.
i’m wondering how it’s possible to have a Master/slave relationship that is *not* TPE. hm.
Well, for some people that IS the defining aspect of Master/slave. TPE. Anything other than TPE is D/s or.. whatever other “labels” there are.
But I dunno. Those definitions are written according to someone else’s opinion.. so.. they are only worth as much as someone wants to put stock in that person’s opinion, you know?
now see, i would say that having an “exit option” doesn’ make you D/s.. rather, having choices ona regular basis make you D/s. you have a choice witheverything he does. and veto power over some things. if he gives you a directive,and you say, “no. i’m not going to do that” does it mean you’re not his submissive, or simply that you’re not submitting at that moment?
if i say, flat out, “i’m not goin to do that” then our dynamic is OVER. i have reclaimed my ability to deny consent, and i am no longer His slave. his submissive, possibly, but once i break that line of “no consent” i cannot be His slave any longer.
yes, i think it’s possible to be M/s and not “be TPE” because i don’t thing TPE is a THING to be, but rather a way of living. often, the term TPE is used by elitists who throw it around like a statement of “what everyone who gives up consent in a relationship ought to be striving toward”. it feels very much like an “everyone must act this particular way” kind of thing. i prefer to be the s part of an M/s dynamic, and i do submit to my owner in everything. sometimes i struggle with it, and sometimes, it’s only the fact that i gave up my consent that keeps me from either disobeying or trying to weasel out of obeying, because i know that my only real choice is to dissolve the M/s bond.
TPE is a total power EXCHANGE. an exchange is an action. you perform an action. it’s what you DO, not what you ARE. my Owner and i perform the exchange. but we are not defined by it. i am a slave. i am not a TPE. but it IS what we do. we both have to do it together. i have to give it up, and he has to take it. contrary to what is sounds, a relationship utilizing TPE is an active engagement in the roles, not a solid “this IS”. because of the term “exchange”.
that’s just my opinion though, and my interpretation. obviously, others interpret it differently.
~melly, a slave in his house
I do not want to be able to say “no Sir I won’t rob the bank”. Though, agreed, I am not completely enslaved. Yet.
If I ever will be remains to be seen.
I’m not sure if it’s attainable or not. I think those who may have attained it aren’t blogging and aren’t talking, and we’ll never know how far they are.
I do understand this: “follow, and be his, or not, and be not-His”. That is how we are currently operating. But for us, that is not the ideal and is not the goal.
I want to compare it as consensual slavery vs. non-consensual slavery. A “victim” of a kidnap, or even the slaves of the 1800′s, a non-consensual slave… there is no consent and there is no power to *choose* to consent. That power was taken away at the point of enslavement. There is no way to reproduce that sort of scenario, at least not between Master and I, so I guess our goal is to get “as close as possible” to that identical mindset. And maybe that is not possible because it’s negated from the beginning by my initial consent.
Hmm. I dunno.
i would say that yes, true non-consentual slavery is not acheivable in individuals who start the ownership by consentual means.
you had to choose/consent to the first thing ever. you did have that choice. so, therefore, a non-con relationship that is a CONTINUATION of the one you already have is not possible.
(and to compound that, he also married you, which means if anything DOES happen you have rights now that are given to you by the state because you are his wife. one of the reasons that Sir does not wish to marry his slaves is because the legality of marriage gives the slave (9now wife) MORE inherent rights, not fewer.
if at some point you attempt to leave, and he prevents such, and refuses you your freedom, then you can start with non-con slavery. at that point though, you have definitely decided you do NOT want to be part of the relationship, you do NOT want to be part of his house, his anything, and that you want out. he is kidnapping you at that point. but then, at that point, you also clearly have not been “brainwashed” (your term) into complete internal enslavement, so one must assume you want out for a reason. ..
brainwashing is possible. andi don’t think it’s necessarily a bad thing to want to truly, honestly believe at some level that you have no choice to leave.
i am composing my oath of fealty to my Sir now, in preparation for His acceptance ofme as His own personal property and slave, and one of the things included is that i will remain in His service until HE chooses to release me. now, i know, theoretically, for myself, that there are situations where i would leave without His permission, but i don’t choose to dwell on those, instead, i opt to think AS IF I KNEW NO BETTER. i opt to behave AS IF I HAD NO CHOICE.
it’s a matter of attitude for me. i behave and act, and attempt to hink, as if i no longer have the right to refuse consent. but i do it because i am acutely aware that i gave it up. i voluntarily gave it up. and now, my own personal code of behaviour dictates that i adhere to what i have sworn.
it’s something the two of us share, this dynamic. it’ snot what works for everyone, but it brings out hte things that are most important in it to US.
i imagine one day, if you really wanted to, you could try to leave, and have Him thwart you. so you could know that he CAN force you to stay if he wants to.
but the thing is, if you really tried to leave, would he let you? (the kind of ownership described in tanos’ comment never says you have to want to stay. it just says you have no choice. you can hate every second of your slavery, and still be a slave, according to that. i gues it’s why submission is just as important to me as being his property. even if i AM his, i can still fight Him, or submit to him. that is something he cannot do, he cannot force my submission. he can force my acceptance of what he’s doing, but he cannot force my submission. and that is something that is true no matter what kind of slave you are, consentual or non consentual.
sometimes i think i understand what you are wanting as not non-con slavery, but instead a mental overwhelming to the point of an “anti-fight” mindset programmed into you, where you do not object, either mentally or physically, to anything he says or does. that’s cool. i understand that, and i do think it’s possible. it IS brainwashing. that’s fine too. (if you want that) but it’s not submission, and it’s not service either. in my head both of those things require knowledge that you have a choice not to. you can serve grudgingly, or you can submit willingly. or you can do, with the mindset of “no other alternative” and that requres neither submission nor service, but just.. action.
*whew.*
that was long. did clarify enough?
~melly, a slave in His house.
“it’s a matter of attitude for me. i behave and act, and attempt to hink, as if i no longer have the right to refuse consent”
I think that there are those, however few and far between, that choose to take this to the next level and no longer wish to simply *behave* or *act* as if they no longer have the right to refuse.
And I too think it’s possible. Where we part ways is this: “true non-consentual slavery is not acheivable in individuals who start the ownership by consentual means.”
It is absolutely feasible for a consensual relationship to become non-consensual. I think the main component of that is the EMOTIONAL hijacking that occurs along the way.
Thanks to all for the great discourse!
~magpie
melly,
When i married Master i signed a pre-nup that says, should we ever split, i get NOTHING! Everything is His in the marriage, and i would have no right to anything. Not to the houses (He has two that He owns now and is wanting to buy a third in the future), vehicles, investments, etc. Everything would be His and His alone. i would be able to have the clothes on my back if He chose to let me.
I have to be honest in saying that I do not view prenups, even in an M/s relationship, as a component of slavery at all. They might serve a purpose in a particular relationship…but they do not void all of the inherent rights that come with marriage. They serve only to stipulate what you will get financially if you split up. But with marriage there still come rights such as inheritance, etc. that cannot be removed even by legal action.
Basically…while I see your point on the prenup, the reality is that it only serves so much purpose.
As a thinking human being consentually enslaved and thinking you have given up all power you will still be a thinking human. You always have the option of saying no even if you have said you would not say it. I am not in a TPE relationship so only have an outside view from reading all of you but I would think they would not want an automaton of a slave. Where is the fun in that? Isn’t half the fun getting you to where they want you? That sent me off on a tangent so i am stopping before i have to start my own bog to ask and answer all my own questions lol. OK the point of my little ramble was you always have veto power even not using it is a choice.
Half the fun IS getting a slave to where they want her/him, that is true. So.. if that is HALF of the fun, what is the other half, if not enjoying what they’ve created?
I think for some people, the attraction of ownership is all about the constant and daily interaction of two thinking individuals. But for others, that process is NOT the attraction, the attraction or goal, is to end up with exactly the mindless robot of their evil little dreams. A “human thing”.
But I do agree that that “human thing” will continue to think. and may continue to have veto power, even if that veto power, once used, results in death or release.
Don’t get upset over my use of the word “death”. It’s merely something to consider because I often compare the depth of slavery I desire to the same kind of helpless obedience of a kidnap victim. That victim’s consequence of refusal could very well be death.. yet, no matter, she would still have that option, right?
Okay, I may need to wrap my head around this more but I can share my initial thoughts.
I think there has to be some aspect of consent in any relationship. I think that if the Master pulls out the worst tool in his arsenal, the slave is giving more of a nonverbal consent every time she/he bends over and takes it. You aren’t saying “yes” or “no” in a verbal, talking sense but you are agreeing to do because that’s what you wanted when you agreed to the relationship in the first place.
From my perspective, that is a type of consent. Just not the one that everyone rushes to think of when they hear the word.
If any of this makes sense, awesome.
I understand what you are saying.
I’m not even disagreeing so much as trying to examine this from every angle.
Do you still think the same thing if the girl (or boy) absolutely DOES NOT WANT to obey, does not want to bend over, does not want any of it, but does it anyway because she is no longer congnitive any other alternative? (brainwashed or whatever, if that is even possible)
What if the “choice” is obey or die? Not obey or leave, but obey or be killed. Is that still a choice?
And… given your past reactions to this topic, let me say it in the exact manner it was presented and if you would, tell me your thoughts on it: “A slave is ALWAYS raped because slaves cannot meaningfully consent since they have no veto.”
Whatcha think?
I think I consented to letting him fuck me whenever he wants to BEFORE I became owned.
Hence, no, I am not being raped.
I may not like every sexual interaction but I certainly consented to them all.
That was always my opinion too. Still is.
I consented to anything and everything so I can’t be abused, I can’t be raped and I can’t be.. whatever.
Even if He “gave” me to someone else for sex, I wouldn’t say I was being raped. Even if I had begged him not to and had refused, in that moment, to give permission. Even if I fought it and resisted and was thrown down and used by this other guy anyway, I don’t think I could say that I was raped. It was a blanket consent.
Though I might FEEL raped.
Exactamundo.
It might hurt.
Lots of things hurt.
It might scar me, fuck me up for awhile.
Stuff does, sometimes.
But raped?
And always raped?
Bah.
That’s nonsense.
That’s sort of like paying to go into a haunted house, signing a form that says it’s really scary and you realize it’s going to be scary and are okay with scary and then coming out and accusing them of scaring you!
“That’s sort of like paying to go into a haunted house, signing a form that says it’s really scary and you realize it’s going to be scary and are okay with scary and then coming out and accusing them of scaring you!”
Ha! That’s perfect!
No.
I will not and can not agree that slaves are raped, at least in the BDSM/TPE sense. I think the slaves we stole from Africa before the civil war were raped against their will and were consistently faced with the obey or die scenario you brought up. But I see that as entirely different from the TPE Master/slave relationships that I’ve observed online thus far.
I was thinking about this a bit and I think the consent between Master and slave is established when the TPE relationship begins. And the slave consents to the Master because he tells her too (and I think, in part, because she wants too).
Not being a slave, Im looking at this from the outside.
I think no matter what situation you are in, be it a “24/7″ TPE, or just a plain marriage, there is always room for an opinion to be heard.
Being a slave, its true, you may not get your wish and your voice may go unheard BUT thats the “choice” you made when you relented and submitted. I think that being able to set aside those rare moments of no TPE or D/s are healthy and give couples a chance to reasses limits, hear each other as people (not as Master and slave)
I know folks wont agree with me and thats fine. Im just a sub, not a slave and my voice is heard often and my ideas, wants, desires are heard and taken into consideration, even if they are ignored. I am still heard.
I am happy in my submission and being able to draw a line. I like having a to say “um no thats beyond my limits” and He still respects me. But I will say.. I am an extension of Him. I reflect on Him 24/7 and I keep myself to my normal high standards so that Im never an embarassment of Him. Thats why I get my “veto” and still serve with a smile.
you know, i really hate to hear people say “i’m JUST a sub”, because it feels to me like you are belittling your role because you’re not big and bad enough to be a slave. i used to think i was “just” a sub. and i tried hard to find my peace with that. (i found out that i really do want to be a slave, bu, that doesn’t make it any less valid that i was submissive before.
being a submissive is just as huge a journey as being a slave. sometimes, even moreso, because you don’t have the “well, i can’t say no. i’m a slave. i gave up my consent.” thing to fall back on in times of struggle. (i will admit, it helps me often to think that because i’ve given up my consent, i need to find a way to be at peace with my task instead of fighting it.)
being able to negotiate choices and voice preferences doesn’t make your submission any less potent. just differently formatted.
though it’s just a “semantics” thing for some, i tend to twitch a little when i hear “just” before “submissive.” it’s like saying “i’m just a woman” or “i’m just a mom, not a career person”.
i’m really glad you are solid and comfortable in your place.
~melly
I reflect on Him 24/7 and I keep myself to my normal high standards so that Im never an embarassment of Him.
And I, for one, am glad that you think that way. Now.
I also agree with melly that “just a sub” is no way to say it. It does smack of “less than” and it shouldn’t. I might even go so far as to say that being a submissive is harder than being a slave, because that consent is such an ongoing process and I imagine that the tempation to NOT consent is strong. Being able to fall back on the “slave excuse” is actually pretty handy. Kind of like not having to claim any responsibility for making a mistake.
Not that I would do that. Much.
My apologies to you both. I dont mean to belittle my role in His life. Its jut that I dont have the guts to move forward just yet and take that leap to consensual slavery. I am His all and His everything, but just not a slave, yet. He is guiding me that way and Im working towards wrapping my mind around that.
He has stated more than once that He refuses to not let me speak my mind. He likes my opinions, He likes it when I think and He loves it when I stand up for something Im passionate about, even if He doesnt always agree. I found a blog that is alot of what I want in my lifestyle exploration and showed Him. He asked how I would react to my face and body naked on a site, and I said as long as my face was obscured and my tats I would do it for Him. His first question ..what if I say no to that? I said well I have to protect the privacy of my children. He nodded, smiled and said of course. He likes that my submission is important, that I am willing to try new things and move forward towards slavery, but that protecting my privacy is valued.
So I guess in a way, Im not just a sub. Im HIS sub, His sub with attitude and a brain. Thanks for reminding me that Im so much more.
I find it interesting that so many I know classify themselves differently based on things like speaking their mind. You say he refuses to not let you speak your mind. So many view that as a distinguishing characteristic between “sub” and “slave.” You may not, but your focus on that concept made me wonder if you do.
This is just my .02 here…but the way you phrased that seemed the perfect description to me. It demonstrates precisely how it goes both ways. “He refuses to not let me speak my mind.” What I take out of that statement is twofold: (1) You get to speak your mind, and it is important to him that you get that chance; (2) You do not HAVE to speak your mind if you do not want to.
My Master is actually similar in that regard. He has always encouraged me to speak my mind, even before we got into D/s and M/s (however you choose to categorize it). He does not want me to lose my passion, opinions, etc., because that is a big part of why he loves me, and why he wants me around.
I would distinguish my situation in that regard from the impression I get of yours in two ways only. (1) While Master values me speaking my mind, there are times when my voice IS silenced – though that silence has never been permanent, only temporary. In that way he “refuses” to not let me speak my mind, but occasionally he chooses to delay it. (2) Sometimes I am ordered to speak my mind when I do not want to. This evening was the perfect example, actually. I was kneeling beside Master, in a situation where I was free to get up and move about if/when I wished. I had a horrible day today, and was very upset, and it was making me more upset kneeling there in silence, waiting for him to finish what he was doing. I decided to go change my clothes into comfy, home clothes, which he had earlier given me permission to do whenever I wished. I got up and went to the door in silence. He looked at me and asked what I was doing. I said “don’t worry about it” because I didn’t want to talk about why I was changing, and that I was upset, etc. until/unless he had time to hear it all. He then said in “that” voice: “Erlina, where are you going.” I knew I had no choice but to tell him then and there.
I know this is random and of topic…your response just got me thinking of how many subs/slaves I know who seem to think that a person who speaks their mind cannot possibly be a slave. (The whole “True Slave” idiocy and all that…) But your phrasing, in my eyes, demonstrated precisely why it doesn’t matter if the person speaks his/her mind – it is the intent behind it that matters.
kaya,
i have to stop reading here as all your topics have been so good lately i am spending too much time reading what all your readers have to offer!
The thing that resonated with me was penguinskitty’s statement that even though we consider ourselves slaves, we are in fact still consenting every time we accept the ….. whatever it is we do not want.
We are bound by honor and our word, but technically most of us could, in fact, leave if we chose…does that make us not “real” slaves? Maybe not..and i know i could not just walk away…Master would make every reasonable effort to compel me to honor my vow of slavery, but in truth without it being consensual, i don’t think He would wish to own me. Does that not mean W/we have never had that discussion…i am leaving..You shall not…i go..but like a dog to her cage…i don’t go far and i always return and usually it ends up with me saying…Why did You let me go? Do You not want me here to serve You? and Him saying He must know i serve freely, not necessarily gladly ;<( but freely.
Is that not consent by a slave? I don’t know…and again begs the question of what is a slave..i don’t own a car any longer..i don’t own my home, i have no separate monies…so if Master chose to withhold those things from me, He could…but still i could run..and that happens all to often in the vanilla world..and it is abuse…which is not the definition i accept of consensual slavery..which Tanos would see as an oxymoron anyway, i presume!
OK…write something mindless next with sexy pictures!!lol
~s/nik
You bring up some good points. So if you have no monies of your own, no place to live, no car, no easy access to the things that make actually leaving a viable option, are you enslaved still by choice, or because there is no way out?
I mean, I know that you are enslaved by choice,,, but the reason that those measures work in the vanilla world by abusive partners is precisely because cutting off the means of “escape” further dependence and entrapment. So if that is occuring in an M/s relationship, at some point does it ever cross the line from being just a standard operation of control to a measure of entrapment?
If, we are all in agreement that we are here by choice and bound by honor, why bother with those supposed unnecessary measures of control, if not for the purpose of limiting identity and means of separation?
Tomorrow, I promise pictures and nothing else!..lol (If Master lets me..teehee)
i make myself sound like a nun!! And in a certain way..that is true…except for the sex thing!! i am the freest i have ever been in my life, bound in slavery!! i sold my home, car, threw out stuff galore…wish i could have dejunked even more would make my role as domestic servant easier…i moved into my Masters home and he provides me with a car so it is not like i am house bound…and i said i have no SEPARATE monies…so not having a mortgage, not having to worry about car repair, insurance…well, you get my drift…i am aware of all of these things..but i was a single parent for a good long while and moved into a home my Master has owned for 20 years…so it does feel like freedom to me!
Could he order me to leave? of course..but it again speaks to the limits thing..when i made the decision to accept Master’s collar, my only decider was knowing the man and the degree of trust and faith i had that His limits would be safe for me. He is not going to tell me to rob a bank, so that always seems ridiculous when people use that..it’s like me saying to my kids when they were little..”if everyone else jumped off the roof does that mean you would too?” As our relationship grows W/we both have had O/our limits pushed together..the level of openness and trust required from both to live as Master/slave is incredible…for anyone able to find that in the vanilla world (and i think some do!) i say “FANTASTIC”!! It just didn’t work out that way for me..
Back to the car and work thing..you had a post not too long ago when you were deciding about going back to work/school that really stuck with me for a long time..popped back up now..about is in truly possible to function so much outside of the home without it eroding the enslavement between the parties..(i paraphrase!)And i do struggle with that..i went back to work right before Christmas and it has been both a plus and a minus…mainly the energy that it takes to function professionally and then to come home and still try to maintain the same level of service…but if He gets up to get His own drink or whatever..it feels like a smack..like He is saying i am not meeting all of his needs..so it is a balancing act for us all. But i do believe i live within the boundaries of consent…so maybe just not slave..to some…
PICTURES=GOOD!!!
O GOOD! I have spent all day thinking and not working because I am reding all that is here. : ) When I get in trouble in an hour I am blaming Kaya. : )
LOL
I am blameless!
Although, if taking the blame will get me spanked then I am guilty!
When one falls in love, does one “consent” to love? Do we make that choice and say “Yes, I will love you”, or is it more of a one day we’re ho-hum thinking we like someone, and the next day we’re like, “Holy shit, I LOVE him/her. Now what?” Never realizing how it happened? I don’t know of anyone who has made a conscious decision to love.
I liken my slavery to just that. Which to me, puts a non-consensual lilt on it. The brainwashing idea. (Which is fucking scrumptious, btw.)
But that’s exactly what it is. He is a Dominant that wanted to fuck me and I was a submissive that very much wanted to BE fucked. ZERO intentions of committing, let alone becoming M/s. But lo and behold, through the years and many ups & downs, I realized, “Goddamn, I really CAN’T walk away.” I do not have the mental, emotional, or physical fortitude to walk. Can that be construed as a slow brainwash towards non-consent? Would I feel better if I could say “No, Master, I won’t rob that bank.” Sure I would, but can I sit here and say it with 100% honesty? No I cannot.
I believe that we all start with consent, but that we can also end up with none.
I asked him the other day, when I was *snicker* making a decision, where HE stopped and I began. He simply said, “You Don’t.”
THAT, I can’t refuse.
~ a long-winded magpie
GOOD point. I like that.
I think some people refuse to accept that it is ever possible to lose the mental, emotional, or physical fortitude to walk. That it’s as impossible as someone claiming that their Master is going to teach them how to fly.
if you say you have no consent at all ever, and never did then i would say there is no exchange. not even the most basic notion. exchange does NOT apply. and TPE does not apply. there is no exchange! no one is giving anything up, no one is taking anything. that is a definite BEING. and that is like predestination. “you were mine to begin with, before, and when i found you, then of course you ere mine. you had no other choice BUT to be mine, and you had no choice NOT to be mine. so you are mine, and that’s all there is to it.”
kind of like if you don’t know your birth mother, but you meet her one day, you can say all you want to “you’re not my mother!!” but she is. she birthed you, you share her DNA. she IS your mother. but that doesn’t mean there’s a relationship.
the kind of ownership implied in the original post has nothing to do with a relationship, or with any choice at all, ever, not even a total one. no exchange, at all, ever.
in that situation, a power exchange is just a ruse. there is none. your ‘giving up’ power meant nothing. it wasn’t yours. you cna make a show of giving up, giving in, but it sdoesn’t matter. you can’t choose. your submission means nothing. you never had the right to say no in the first place. you cant submit, because you had no power not to.
submission, giving up, surrender, it all has no bearing, no meaning whatsoever. you had no choice at all from the get-go.the best you as the owned can ever hope for is peaceable acceptance of your situation. “well, she IS my birth mother. but i hate her.” well, that’s unfortunate, but your hating her won’t change it. “well, she’s my birth mother. i want to have a relationship that is meaningful with her!” great. won’t make a lick of difference as to whether or not she’s your mother.
the only difference in the situation is the attitude of the person in it. nothing else is changeable at all.
is that the kind of 2 by 4 you were looking for?
~melly
I’m thinking, I’m thinking.
“you cant submit, because you had no power not to”
Exactly! That is, to me, the goal of internal enslavement. Not submitting.. but simply *being* and *doing* because there is no other alternative.
But whether or not a person could ever get to the point where they stop *thinking* of other alternatives, rather than thinking and then choosing not to act on them, is a mystery. A matter of opinion I suppose.
Which is, again, why I like the whole brainwashing thing. I suspect that is the only way that process *might* occur.
hoo, boy. i kinda figured that might be it. (see, i’m kinda peering into your brain, just a little *grin*) and i think, that right there, is where the two of us part ways in how we ourselves want to be, optimally.
if that is your definition of IE, then i want no part of it. but i totally respect your decision to do it! and more power to ya!(i also do not think this is TPE either. i am of the opinion that IE supersedes TPE in the mind. if you have IE, then TPE is no longer an available option.)
for Sir and i both, the act of submission is a big deal, so i don’t think he would want to rid me of it, and i don’t want to serve without it. He likes that i give up, that i give over, and that i CHOOSE to serve and submit to Him.
maybe it’s an ego thing. if i have no other choice, then that doesnt mean he’s anything more than just a guy who happened to be the one to get me. it means nothing in terms of my desire to serve Him.
i guess maybe ifrom my own personal preferences, i don’t see the benefit of having an IE slave. why someone would want one, as opposed to having a slave that chooses to serve you. do you have any insight into that? i’m really interested to know…
~melly, a slave in His house
Although we are in relationships where the dynamic is quite different, I would like to answer your question as regards why anyone would want to have an IE slave.
Much the same as your Dominant enjoys that you *choose* to submit to him, that every moment you are together is a *choice* in his favor, another Dominant may find great and intense pleasure from becoming such a large part of his/her slave’s world that there are simply no *choices* other than the Master’s choice. That he has such an impact in/on her life that there are no options for her, but his. IE seems to me to be something worked on over a period of time…why would it be hard to believe someone wouldn’t find pleasure in creating something to their liking?
And, I am unsure as to why the “mindless automoton” thing gets slung around so much. One can have all the personality in the world and still cede their will to another…
~magpie
see, on your last line, you put consent back in. if you are ceding your will to another is to consent in some way. doing what he says is choosing. NOT choosing means you don’t have a right to choose, and never will. it is not ceding your will.
and you didn’t answer my question at all, but it was stupid as a question anyway. why does anyone like what we like? i like to be spanked. he likes to choke me with His cock. kaya likes sperm. some folks like to have their slaves sexed by dogs. i like to have my choice. and some folks don’t. it doesn’t appeal to me, and i dont really have an explanation why.
so, nobody has to give me onw of why the DO like it.
i do know that the “mindless automaton” thing has just a little to do with ego. it’s the line of thinking that say, if they have no choice but to be with you, you could have gotten a blow up doll, or paid a hooker(and even a hooker can refuse johns they don’t like the looks of). but to have someone voluntarily decide to do what you want, that places importance on not the slave, but the MASTER. THEY are good enough that you WANT to submit to them. and i’d like to be able to continue that with my owner, not have my resistance eliminated. it also reduces the slaves worth to zero, which i suppose can be a point, but if a slave is worthless, why have one? if ANYTHING is worthless, why have it?
i suppose it means that you cannot use your slave as justification of your own worth. which i suppose is a sign that they find enough worth in themselves that they don’t need a slave/sub to verify their worth. and i guess, the slave then is freed of having to be “worthy” they’re already worthless, except for whatever purpose their master gives them. i imagine it could be very .. freeing… i find a certain freedom in my submission, but i’m not sure i ever want to be THAT free.
but it’s still not something i want. *shrug* to each their own.
It makes me a little sad, as with the slave vs. submissive issues, and so many other debates in the BDSM “community”, that lots of people probably equate IE with “worthless”. I’m not saying YOU do, melly, just that you used that word. Obviously, if a Dominant sets out to “create” something, he’s going to create what he desires. Yes, the journey itself is great and difficult and yummy, but the end result (whatever it may be) is useful and yummy and wanted as well. Or why build it in the first place?
Additionally, we all cede to our Dominants. That’s a given. It’s what is done with that initial surrender, and how far it is pushed and manipulated, that makes the difference as regards where we finally find ourselves.
And you’re right, to each their own. It’s so wonderful how many levels of this there are to be discovered, isn’t it?!
~magpie
I dunno about insight into why. Why does anyone want a slave, even one that chooses to submit daily? I mean.. who the heck knows why..lol
Although, this is something that popped into my head while thinking about it. You said “He likes that i give up, that i give over, and that i CHOOSE to serve and submit to Him.” and you do that every moment of every day.
But… that still leaves you with the option of choosing NOT to submit. Even if it means the end of your relationship, you can choose that. Which also means that your Sir knows that you have that option, which means that at some point, conceivably, He could “lose” you. You could walk out the door and never look back, in spite of all of the training and work He’s put into you.
So maybe the why of the other is knowing that *no matter what* the Master will not lose His creation. It cannot happen. Ever.
That’s a thought anyway.
As for what it means, maybe if it was done in the manner of “perpetrator and victim” He would be “just the guy who got me”. But, if it happens to someone as strong-willed and mouthy and opinionated as *I* am? I’d think that says a LOT about his abilities and his dedication to making me into what he wants me to be. Half of it IS the journey.. the other half is reaping the reward.
Hi kaya
This is my first ever comment on your blog, and I had to go and pick a real doosey, huh?
First, I went to Tanos’ site and poked around a bit. He has a belief in Internal Enslavement, where by the slave INITIALLY consents to have no future consent. He further goes on to define said slave with this definition:
Oxford English Dictionary: “One who is the property of, and entirely subject to another person, whether by capture, purchase or birth; a servant completely divested of freedom and personal rights.” When we say “slave”, we mean literal slave, defined in this way. (Thank goodness for copy and paste)
So, under this definition, his statement is true.
slaves cannot meaningfully consent since they have no veto
I personally do not believe that any person can achieve this level of slavery, unless they are born into it, and it is legally acceptable where they live. Because, frankly, if a slave has had enough, there is nothing (legally) stopping that slave from leaving, assuming they do live where slavery is NOT legal. Do people strive for this level of slavery? Yes of course. Do they achieve it? In many ways, yes. But ultimately no, they do not. Because, unless you live in very small parts of the world where slavery (by his definition) is still practiced, then once that door is open, the ‘slave’ can just walk out if he or she WANTED to.
Hmm… just my two cents.
~twisted
Hi!
I agree with most of what you said. In this day and age, actual owned slavery is not happening. Perhaps in places it is. Certainly 20/20 seems to find places in Africa and India and such to do stories on.
But that’s a whole nother ballgame.
Around these parts, legally I can walk out the door at any time and there is *nothing* He can do about it. I am a “free” human in the eyes of the law. I stopped being “property” right around 1900 or so.
But the internal enslavement process is what really piques my interest. Is it possible? Is it a myth? Is it a pipedream?
Is it possible to alter someone’s mind so fundamentally that they cease being a person of independent thought and decision? Is it possible to strip away someone’s identity, a person’s sense of self? Is it possible to make the *choice* of obedience become, instead, a matter of not something even thought about but rather something done because the option of doing anything else ceases to exist?
That’s where the dissention lies. Some people see it as you described it. That the option to leave never disappears. But other people say that by psychological “brainwashing”, the option to leave, while legally still there, is no longer *mentally* there.
“Is it possible to make the *choice* of obedience become, instead, a matter of not something even thought about but rather something done because the option of doing anything else ceases to exist?”
I think this is the absolute crux of the whole topic of discussion here. That gradual ridding, by another human being, of emotional/mental/spiritual wherewithal to go against that same human being. I *do* believe it can be done as we see it all the time, victims of ongoing domestic abuse etc. And while that may not be the healthiest example of gradual emotional non-consent, it shows it can be accomplished, right or wrong.
I am greatly intrigued by, and aroused by, that kind of massive and measured erosion of a person.
~magpie, part deux
“erosion of a person”
Jeez. Make my pussy twitch! Yummy.
The way you describe it seems to me like changing one’s instinct. I am a firm believer that every dominant, Master, submissive, slave, or whatever other label people want to stick on it, has, in fact, changed their instinct in some way.
I will use myself as the convenient example. When I was born and growing up, in my mind it was not an option to have a man control me in any way. Then, when I was in high school I was exposed to BDSM for the first time via literature and conversations with my then-boyfriend, now-Master. Gradually, my instinct began to change. No longer did I believe there was no choice but independence. When I began to submit, from my view there was NO CHOICE except for Master to stop something if I told him I really meant it. Now? He’ll stop if he damn well pleases. Generally he stops if I tell him I am in real pain – but I know he does not have to. The choice has switched sides. Rather than me having the choice to end something, Master has the choice of granting my *request.* Even now, I am evolving further.
Seeing you describe it, IE seems like the opposite end of the spectrum of instincts from those I was born with. I was born believing that having another person control me was not even an option. IE would occur, then, when NOT being controlled ceases to be an option. It is a complete change in instinct.
I will agree with others – I am not sure I could handle that. I do have the utmost respect for those who can, and/or those who want to. I believe it is possible, it is just a series of small evolutions of instinct. I would be willing to bet that if you look back over your relationship, there are many periods where something that was previously not an option to have occur became something you saw no option of preventing.
wow, whatever I had to say was already said and much more well thought out and eloquent so I will just say Hi and go back to lurking. You are an amazingly deep thinker. I doubt all the brainwashing in the world will change that.
Oh yeah, I loved the Kitty Post you had me going but in the back of my mind I kept saying how’s that possible with him working and three kids. You are a great suspense writer. If your still looking for ways to make money you should think about taking your journals and writing your autobiography. Or write for e-zines or magazines. Just an idea it’s really none of my business.
Just wanted to say “YOUR AWESOME”
You are pretty awesome too.
I dunno about writing. I mean, it comes easy to me when I *want* to write, but put me on a deadline or assign me a topic and I go completely blank.
I actually find this entire thing ridiculous.
We’re people first. We consent to the relationships we enter.
Is the ability to make choices, to veto, taken away after entering a M/s relationship? For some, yes. Not for all, though. And even those who give up absolute power the consent is there. It’s the building block of the entire relationship.
Unless, of course, the Master type dragged a stranger off the street and made her his slave.
But that’s not exactly what we’re talking about, is it?
I gave Taylor blanket consent when I accepted him as my Owner.
No, I can’t veto.
But I still consented to the relationship and whatever it may entail.
And, to be utterly honest, when it comes right down to it, I DO have the power to leave.
We all do.
I can’t imagine leaving for any reason other than him harming my son but that power is still there.
How many girls have you heard talk about how they’ve given themselves body, mind and soul to Master, they could NEVER leave, they’re Soooooooo owned…
And two years later you hear they’ve not only left but divorced the Fuck and moved on to a better Master?
I dunno.
I’m rambling.
Point is…
You may not have the power to give “consent” every day but who fucking wants that?
We consent to the relationship, to his power over us… and then live with that decision.
The decision to give up your personal power may mean you no longer have any but it certainly doesn’t mean you never did.
I agree with you on most everything.
So do you think then, that getting to the point of NOT having the power to leave is impossible? I’m not saying legally because of course that will always be there. But the psychological ability to make the decision to walk away?
Because that’s what (I think) I’m focusing on with the original quote. If it can get to that sort of psychological enslavement, there is no longer an exchange of power, or a choice of submission… shouldn’t it then stop being an M/s relationship? Whatever else you would call it, or if it even matters what you call it.
Most of us are in the same boat. We chose to hand over that power and the only choice left to us is to submit or end the relationship. We still have the brain power TO leave. If that is taken away…
I dunno. I amuse myself by yakking. I should be cleaning. Some “slave” I am..lol
I dunno about the leaving stuff.
I can say there have been times where I’ve been stressed enough and hurt enough and sure enough that this wasn’t going to work that a large part of me wanted to. Where I thought it would likely be best for me if I did.
I didn’t.
Couldn’t, really.
I guess…
I can’t leave.
The only damned thing that could bring that power rising, gushing back to me, is if Taylor harmed my son.
(The power of mom beats out the power of anything else, I think.)
Anyhow…
For me, even though I find myself mentally unable to leave – and hence physically unable to turn the knob on the door – I still consider what we do to be D/s. (M/s. Whatever turns your crank. I refuse to use the term slave)
It’s still an exchange of power.
He still feeds on all that I am, all that I’ve given to him.
I still feed on the structure, the lessening of me as the person in control.
I still have personal power. I just look at personal power differently, maybe. I don’t look at it as consent or the power to say no. I look at it as my intelligence and skills, the service I provide, the ease (or difficulty) with which I make his life easier. Those things (and many others) make up a strong and powerful me who bends and bows to the will of another every single day.
I dunno.
Am I babbling again?
Shew! *wipes brow*
Lots here to digest.
Something Carrie said made me “have” to respond –
“(The power of mom beats out the power of anything else, I think.)”
For me, this is true, i love my Master, and i believe that is what actually keeps me from walking away. But we are merely on the road to being together 24/7. We have lots of miles to go – BUT i think that my feelings for Him and what He gives to me (control, etc. that i crave) are what make me stay with Him – make me His slave.
BUT, for others there are different reasons for staying.
i think there is ALMOST always something that will make a person leave. There is always something that would be THE reason that would make a slave “take back” their consent. And for each person, the reason is different.
Having said that – i will will say that i believe that i have seen what i would call Internal Enslavement (incapable of leaving another=enslaved to them) before. Where? As much as i hate to say it – only in abusive situations. i have worked with both battered and abused women and both physically and sexually abused children. The only time i have seen someone incapable of leaving is in a situation where some type of abuse exists. And in my experience, there is always one common dinominator – lack of self-esteem or self-confidence.
This lack of self confidence could be something that has been inevidence since childhood, OR something that was created/or manifested within the relationship.
Is that Internal Enslavement? I don’t know. i REALLY don’t. i guess i have thought that i was, but i am not sure.
And is Internal Enslavement possible so that the slave maintains their own confidence and personal strength? i don’t know that either.
So then why the hell am i writing??!!??
Just to throw my 2 cents in i guess!
1 cent – “Mommy” slave comes before all else, but my Master supports this.
2nd cent – My only view of IE has been when i have also seen a huge lack of self-confidence and/or self-esteem.
That’s it… take that and 2 pennies and you might get a piece of gum!
kJ
I just had a very circular thought.
I consented to this abuse.
Therefore, I cannot be being abused.
Consent negates abuse.
Master is systematically eroding my sense of self.
He’s eliminating the self-confidence required to make me capable of leaving.
Eliminating my self-confidence is abusive.
Taking away my right to withdraw consent is abusive.
Master is abusive.
Therefore, I am being abused.
But I consented to this abuse.
Therefore I cannot be being abused.
See? Weird huh?
Maintaining a slave’s own confidence and personal strength is possible, I think. But maybe not in the typical way that one thinks of when discussing confidence and strength. I know for me, while He’s eroding certain aspects of self-confidence, He’s replacing it with other ways, other abilities, that build my self-confidence. Things that leave me feeling wonderful about myself… yet also slowly getting me to the point where leaving will be impossible, possibly due to not having the confidence or means of doing it.
What a topic!
Agreed! What a topic!
So here’s what i’m thinking:
Perhaps the difference in the person who “cannot leave” and has lost their self-confidence, etc. and IS being abused without consent VERSUS the submissive/slave that “cannot leave” but has originally consented to the “abuse” (let’s assume some people will call what happens in our D/s-BDSM lifestyle “abuse”) IS that the person that submissive has a feeling of SAFETY or (for me) of PEACE.
The person that is in an abusive relationship and is experiencing non-consensual sex (rape) has no feeling of safety or ANY other positive feelings of self or FOR self.
The person that is being “abused” and maybe experiencing non-consensual sex (rape) but that initially gave permission for that consent to be taken has a feeling of safety or is feeling something that is at least reciprical. They are receiving some benefit. ie. they are masochistic.
For me, i may take the “abuse,” i may even be losing some self-esteem – but i’m “trading” it for my sense of safety, fulfillment and my own little world of peace.
**it’s too early to be making any sense!! Hope this does at least a little!
kJ
That makes PERFECT sense. I couldn’t agree more. We get something out of it, whatever it may be to each of us, but if, and only if, we are left feeling unsafe and insecure, would I suspect that it’s crossed the line from consensual slavery to abused spouse.
Yay! We’ve solved the world!
Well FINALLY!
i knew i was good for something besides … well, you’ll have to ask Master what i’m good for! *wink*
Can we go back to bed now? Oh wait… forgot about those little ones.. and chores… and work… Geez! A slave’s work is never done – solving the world’s problems on top of everything else – will it never end!?!?
i always enjoy you insight and thoughts. Thanks to you (and Master of course) for keeping the rest of us on our toes.
kJ
I agree with Carrie. When you enter into a serious M/s relationship by a collaring or however else you want to mark it, you are giving the control over to your owner. You are giving them rights to decide what is to happen to your body and in some cases mind as well. You are trusting them to know what is sensible to do with that power and what is not. If the owner knows his property he is going to know what he can make her do and what he cant. She doesnt need to veto.
Knowledge of your partner and communication should be enough for the whole thing to work.
The whole thing about not being able to rape a slave, or its always rape or whatever what a load of bollocks.
Aside from anything else…a slave contract is a fantasy, you can make that fantasy as real as you want but its not legally binding you are still a person you are still governed by the laws of whatver state or country you live in and you can still say no and mean it if something is going wrong. Ownership is supposed to be a fantasy not abuse…
I do think that slave *contracts* are fantasy. But the Ownership? Them’s fighting words!
Seriously, am I understanding you correctly in that you are saying that the whole process of Ownership and slavery should be a fantasy? A… roleplay or hobby of sorts? And anything beyond that is abusive? I don’t want to put words in your mouth so I’m asking.
Because of the law of the land a slave is not a slave until she consents to be one. Once she (he – I always speak of female slaves… I guess cause that’s what I identify with, being one and all) gives her consent, she loses her veto. Once she’s owned… once she’s consented to becoming a slave, then sure… her consent is meaningless. At least, that’s how I see it.
… I gotta start remembering to click the lil box that makes it email me when someone responds!
I’m curious as to what you think of this comment left by hawkeye. He said:
“Because the rights of American citizenship can not be negotiated away consent is a ongoing process. consent is given at the front end and is continually reaffirmed by the not withdrawing of consent”
and
“The mistake in the OP logic is that while the slave does not have the right of refusal with in the BDSM dynamic, the entire BDSM dynamic is subject to the consent process. If the slave does not understand the ability to withdraw consent then abuse is taking place.”
Agree? Disagree? I don’t know what I think anymore..lol
Hmm… give me a little while to think on this one? I’m wiped tonight. I can’t even make sense of the words :/ It’s a definitive “I’ll get back to you”
First of all, in a lot of places in the U.S. the law says BDSM is abuse regardless of whether or not consent is given. Here in New York, I could say I ask for it, I like it, I want it till I’m blue in the face and Master could still be arrested, prosecuted and found guilty under the law of the land. Consent does not matter.
Legally, I suppose Hawkeye is correct with the first quote. As much as I’d like to say, “Absolutely not! Once consent is given a slave never gives it again!” that just isn’t true. I hate using coin phrases, but, unless and until a slave has internalized slavery to the point that her subconscious no longer allows her to refuse anything, she is consenting to the things her owner does day in and day out by remaining and allowing him to do them. Even if, to the couple, that consent is meaningless. Even if the choice is obey or die.
I don’t agree that if the slave doesn’t understand the ability to withdraw consent she’s being abused. I guess that’s partly because I believe in blanket consent. But saying that it’s abuse is saying that it’s impossible to get to that place where subconsciously a slave no longer has a choice or that once she gets there she’s being abused and I don’t agree with that. I said, “Anything and everything, no matter what.” So if I go off my rocker, if I stop being able to register the law, if I lose the ability to communicate… I’m still His to use as He wishes. I gave Him that forever. And because of that, I believe it’s impossible for Him to abuse me.
Considering the comment is the context of enslavement then I would agree with Tanos.
As previously discussed in another thread, there are relationships where an Owner can fold, bend, spindle or(*gasp*)mutilate his/her property with impunity, since the ownee has surrendered all rights including the right to consent.
Whether its called TPE or internal enslavement at some point in the relationship there was the negotiation of an agreement in which the ownee’s rights were forfeited. (Even if all the governments in the (so called)civilized world say you can forfeit your rights and freedoms)
For simplification let’s issue permits for property. “Kaya, owned and operated by Scott”.
As a side note, I could also make the argument about a couple of owned and operated properties I know that you “can’t rape the willing.” but I won’t. ;-}
lol.. this is true. You can’t rape the willing.
I agree with everything you said. Though there are a whole lot of people who would call what you described an abusive situation, or, if not that, then the Master in that scenario would be “immoral” or some such b.s.
ahhhhhhhh but kaya.. (and maybe some one else said this.. but 53 comments??!!! i can’t wade through that many i am sorry).. a slave has all sorts of veto rights at the very beginning no?? during the negotiation stages…….. once everything is settled.. then it is a done deal and no she doesn’t have a veto……….. BUT hey.. if she really REALLY wanted one.. i am sure any intelligent woman slave could and would find a way to veto….. one way or another…
just my 2 cents..
morningstar (owned by Warren)
I agree. In the beginning, yes.
But what about later? What about when he/she has apparently “lost” the ability to consent? As that seems to be the goal of IE, not to just choose not to veto but to be *unable* to veto… if consensual M/s is founded upon consent, and one loses the ability to either or withdraw consent, is it still M/s or has it morphed into an abusive situation?
Of course all of that is based on the presumption that a person could GET to the psychological point of being unable to withdraw, or give, consent. I’m not sure it is possible.
Again, i have to say that so many thoughts i have on this subject have been stated already.
i ‘feel’ that my last consentual act was making the decision to go through our cuffing ceremony, and accept His cuff. After that, i made no decisions. My Owner will ask for my input on issues, because honestly, He does not want a doormat; however, my input may make absolutely no difference in what He wants from me…and if, by some chance my input does make a difference, i will never know that.
i did not consent to be whipped today…i was not given a choice, i am just required to receive what He gives me.
The material possessions, in this apartment, have now become His. They are just ‘on loan’ to me. i am required to keep His home, where i happen to reside, up to His standards. i own nothing anymore, and he has complete control over everything that i do. He takes what He wants from me, and there is nothing i can do about it.
i’m sorry if this sounds like rambling…this is definitely a difficult topic to discuss.
slave2JS
Okay.. but.. here’s the thing.
You KNOW all these things. You know that are consenting to these things by way of NOT withdrawing consent, right? You choose to not “take back” your submission.
What if it wasn’t that you chose not to take back your submission, but that you couldn’t. That you weren’t psychologically capable of withdrawing consent. If you can’t take back your consent, then you also are not consenting either. Does that make sense? And if you aren’t consenting, is it still M/s or has it changed into something else?
Kaya,
So many people have commented so well on the subject of consent and what it means to; be a slave, TPE, IE, submission and the like that I won’t even try to add something new. I would just repeat something.
I want to comment on the last part of your original post, “My brain has siezed.” I’m really curious why that happened. It’s not something that I’ve seen from you very often. I read the initial statement and had my own brain cramp. It cramped again when I read, later, the context it was in (slaves are always raped because…). As I was reading through the comments, I wondered why the two of us, two perfectly normal perverts, where caught, essentially flat footed by the idea that a slave cannot meaningfully consent.
I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but after some thought, I think for me, it’s a case of outrage. The idea that consent is meaningless for anyone seems so…wrong, in so many ways. At it’s most basic, consent is the one thing that every person is capable of (assuming consciousness and awareness). Even the tiniest newborn gives consent, in it’s most basic form. I recently sat for a three month old for two hours. From the moment I was alone with her, she screamed bloody murder. Two solid hours of screaming with the occational break for a breath of air. Nothing worked, not singing, not eating, not rocking, nothing (no, she didn’t need to be changed). The instant I handed her off to her grandmother, the crying stopped. That baby did not consent to being left with me and did consent to being with grandma. Granted, she couldn’t do anything about it, but she made a choice, even if it was on the most instinctual level.
I believe that EVERYONE gives consent or non-consent to everything that happens to them. Bear in mind that non-consent does not mean that it didn’t happen, it simply means that it was not desired. True, consent can be coerced (begging the question of whether that is really non-consent), manipulated, tricked, and limited to a “hobson’s choice,” but it is given or not given. Thus, I fundementally disagree with the initial statement in its entirety. Slaves can meaningfully consent or not consent. The dynamics may be foriegn to the non-slave (once at the beginning for all time, ignored by permission, etc.), but it was given or not given. In fact, in some ways, the consent that voluntary slaves give is far more meaningful than that I exercise repeatedly over the course of the day, simply because they are consenting to far more at any one time than I would dream of doing. “You can do anything to me at any time,” is far deeper than, “Yes, I’ll sleep with you tonight.” I find myself admiring the slaves I encounter on the net for their ability and siccess at finding someone in their lives that they can actually trust that much, let alone dig up that much trust in the first place.
Anyway, that’s my take. I agree, pics are good, but so is this type of discourse. Maybe a smorgasborg of both?
Dave
I don’t know why my brain siezed. Is still siezing. I’m flip flopping all over the place with this topic. It’s a tough one.
On one hand, it’s alluring, exciting, appealing. All of that.
On the other, it makes me uneasy and uncomfortable.
I just don’t know.
While I know that we all have consented to this in the initial phases, can there come a time when the ability to consent, or to withdraw consent, is erased? And if so, what does that mean to the relationship? If I am *unable* to withdraw my consent, then that also means that I am no longer able to *give* consent. And if I’ve lost the ability to meaningfully consent, has the M/s part of our relationship morphed into an abusive relationship or have we simply reached the pinnable of internal enslavement?
Kaya,
That’s a tricky issue. I know brainwashing, that coersive erosion of sense of self that makes it “impossible” for one to resist the commands of others exists. It’s usually to much work to be of practical use, but we see lighter versions of it in the classic abusive spouse situations. Is the abused woman giving consent when they truly don’t believe that they have an option to leave and/or stand up for themselves? In a way, yes, but it’s a consent that society does not recognise as being meaningful. On the other hand, anyone who knows about brainwashing knows that all brainwashing breaks down if given enough time. Abused wonen DO leave and/or retaliate against their abusers. So in some sense, they do consent to the ongoing abuse by not leaving, even though they don’t believe they can. Please note that I am NOT saying that the abused are to blame, I’m simply saying that they allow what happens to actually happen.
In the case of someone such as yourself, who is actively seeking to reach that point of not believing she can leave or avoids the “abuse” that her husband/Master inflicts on her, the case, for me, is much more clearcut. You, in my mind, will always be consenting, actively, because you actively want the loss of consensuality that He is trying to bring about. Only the future will tell, but I suspect that, if and when you reach that point, when the “brainwashing” breaks, you will tell him and participate in reestablishing it. If and when that happens, you can take solice in the fact that you will have, for a short while (until he takes you back to the box), the answer to this question. Too bad you won’t be able to tell any of us about it.
BTW cunt in a box still bothers me, but I know that it is what you want, and thus, I too, want that for you.
Dave
Kaya, I’m not a roleplayer or a fantasist.
What i’m trying to say is a Master/slave relationship is as real as you want it to be, the ownership and the exchange can be as powerful and meaning as you make it. This is coming from someone too that DOES put a lot of effort into making their BDSM work and is serious about it.
But at the end of the day…its not legal…it cant be enforced by anyone outside the relationship. Your legal rights are still enforceable. Even if you pretend they’re not…they are.
Our M/s means a great deal to my Master & i and we *mean* it. We dont just do this on a weekend,it is there in our lives every day and there are many aspects of my life that he has control over and always will.
But…it is ‘based’ on a sexual fantasy.Why get involved otherwise,because I have been in a relationship too where it turned into abuse .He didnt care what I wanted at all..as long as he got his needs met, which werent even really that interesting after a while. I was left financially in a mess by him and made to feel like a doormat. Thats not fun, and to a certain point(because I didnt know better at the time) I thought that was how being a slave was supposed to be and that I had to put up with it…and i really really tried to believe that giving him everything he wanted and getting NOTHING in return was making me happy. But it wasnt. It sucked big time!
but please…being in a Master/slave relationship is BASED on a fantasy. a sexual one. I know personally I dreamt about this for years before I got to where I am. Go on…say you dont get off on it
xx
Ah.. okay. In that case, I agree with you. It most certain did start out as a sexual fantasy and is, largely, driven by sexual impulses. And agreed also, is that we make it as “real” as we want it to be.
Because the rights of American citizenship can not be negotiated away consent is a ongoing process. consent is given at the front end and is continually reaffirmed by the not withdrawing of consent.
The fantasy goal of internal enslavement, Ie the brainwashing into not comprehending the consent process, is both illegal and immoral. It could possibly be made reality, but doing so would be wrong, and should be punished by society.
I personally find the fantasy goal, and the process of getting to it very hot. However it is the M’s responsibility to make sure that the line is never crossed, that the BDSM is always consensual.
The mistake in the OP logic is that while the slave does not have the right of refusal with in the BDSM dynamic, the entire BDSM dynamic is subject to the consent process. If the slave does not understand the ability to withdraw consent then abuse is taking place. However, so long as this line has not been crossed it is impossible to rape a slave.
But… what if the slave knew that the internal enslavement, the “brainwashing into not comprehending the consent process” was the goal from the very beginning. And not only knew, but consented and activitly participated for as long as she was mentally capable to do so?
Leaving out the issue of morality because morality is largely defined by opinion, is it still abuse? Because doesn’t consent, the initial consent, negate the possibility of abuse?
No, because the human always retains the right to change their mind. The myth of selling ones soul to the devil is intended to be a cautionary tale, to do such a thing would be to become no longer human.
So me being me, and the comment about rape only being when someone who the master has, without permission of the master, had sex with the slave.
So, within the context of the TPE, within the context of the master/person the master has let have sex with slave (‘master surrogate’) no rape is not possible due to the blank check consent.
However, I would say that, within TPE, but outside master/master surrogate, it is not rape so much as stealing. Because the slave is property. This makes me think back to old England and whatsit when adultery was always a crime against the husband. The person who had sex with the wife–even if it was with the woman’s consent–had stolen from the man. If the wife consented, then she was guilty of it also. Then we get the really creepy stuff when the wife is punished any way because she did not resist enough to get away
I haven’t really thought that through. But if you give up your consent, then you cannot be raped by the person you gave up your consent to. If you have -any- vestiges of consent, though, then you can still be raped. Period. That’s why date rape occurs, marital rape, even though a form of tacit consent has been given, in that case, it is in fact continuously reconfirmed.
So long as the slave has not withdrawn consent for the enslavement the slave can not be raped by either her master nor my any who he gives consent to use of the slave. Use of the slave by any who have not been granted consent by the master is rape, as is any contact that takes place ofter the former slave makes a clear indication that the BDSM is no longer consented to. Stating “do not do that” would not be withdrawal of consent, the withdrawal would need to take the form of “I am not your slave”.
The master can drive up the cost of removal of consent, as in telling the slave that if consent is ever withdrawn the entire relationship is over, but the slave is with such a person by choice.
*sigh*
Okay. So, to take this someplace weird, I’m going to explain this within the context of morality. I went to a Catholic high school, and this is pretty much verbatim what one of my teachers said. I can’t remember the exact context of the discussion, but I’m pretty sure we were talking about sinning and choice and going to heaven/hell.
Anyway, throughout your life you make a series of choices. These choices are influenced by how you are raised and the culture you are in. If, for example, you were raised not to steal, and live in a society that in general greatly discourages stealing, you will more than likely not steal. The first time you steal, you may experience great inner turmoil, feel guilt etc and so forth. (This is not in and of itself a damning sin). If you stop there, if you repent whatever and so on, you can still be good. However, if you continue to steal you will eventually become accustomed to it, and it will seem normal, not bad, and perhaps even good. At this point, we start to move into the realm of damnable sin because you have done it so much that you are no longer affected by your own sin.
You have, basically, brain washed yourself.
(Lets not get into the political and moral debate regarding stealing and damnability and so on. Thats missing the point)
Now, take person A, who has never stolen/only that once. I’m a good example of that person. If I cannot afford something, it may not even occur to me to steal it. I will probably think O poo, I can’t get the shiny. Its not a conscious choice. Conversely, person B, who is a rampant stealer, may take it without even considering if they can afford it. It doesn’t occur to them not to steal it.
Now, this is obviously over-simplified.
However, you can condition a person, without as much effort as you may think, and without as much cruelty as you would think, to not even consider an alternative to what you are suggesting. Brainwashing does not have to occur whilst locked in a box under a bed. Brainwashing is simply an extreme form of enculturation. The problem is when it is done without consent, or when it occurs past the point of consent. This could be in an abusive relationship, or a non-TPE relationship with poorly defined boundaries.
My fiance, right now, is attempting to brainwash me to put my dishes in the sink when I am done with them, as opposed to leaving them in the living room. Usually I leave them on the table till I remember to take them to the dishwasher. That is how I was taught to deal with dishes. He, on the other hand, immediately takes them to the sink (which shall forever be a point of contention). We could throw them away, or smash them against the wall, but that is not what we were taught/encultured/brainedwashed to do. His goal is so that when I am done eating, I get up and take them to kitchen without thinking. To do anything else is not -truely- a choice. This is totally outside the context of powerplay, and more in pursuit of hygene, but the idea is the same.
My fiance wants me to not even consider that there might be anything else to do with a dirty dish but put in a sink.
Kaya’s master wants her to consider that there might be anything else to do but obey him.
OK- I have read this quote many places and dwelled on it for at least 48 hours now…here’s my thoughts (took a lot of wine to get this into words to describe what is going on in my head)…anyway long story short…
My personal opinion in regards to “slaves cannot meaningfully consent since they have no veto” is that this statement all boils down to the context.
If we think of “slave” we think historically of no choice, no freedom in regards to African Americans in early US history, in which case the statement would hold true. However, modern day, many in M/s relations see “slave” as submissive which truly depends on the relationship between the given two. Many that I have read up on do indeed believe in “ownership” at all levels; no veto “you do as I say” very cut throat…
On the other hand many M/s relationships are based on consensual desire that is agreed upon and therefore the statement would not hold true. Example being Master and myself…while we speak as new to this lifestyle I can certainly vouch for Him that He would not take His position as my Master had it not been for my consent as well as the fact that I have right to “veto” at any given time if I feel it is necessary. But honestly…what fun would that be? *smirk*
One last thought- why would a safe word be available to most “slaves” if this was to hold true. If they have no “veto” a safe word is pointless and meaningless. (Not that I have used mine yet- but still it is there).
OK- I am done my half political / slightly too serious rampage!
~Viemoira
When it comes to safe words, i have never had to use mine either. But mine is not in the way of a “veto”. It is there in case i feel something go wrong….a muscle pulling or cramping, places going numb that shouldn’t…..that type of thing. i do not have the power of veto just because i find it hard to do, something i do not enjoy or because it pushes my personal boundries. i suppose in a way, this makes the power of my veto pointless, until you take in the health safety issue.
i brought this comment up to Master and i agree with Him when He says it is an agrument that could go on forever. But if i may, i will insert my own opinion on the matter. When i became Master’s slave, i, from that point on had no limits. my limits are decided by Him. i trust Him and only him, with this. He has ultimate power. i gave my willing, supreme, ultimate consent when i asked Him if i may become His slave. i see it as everytime He pushes my boundries, out of my comfort zone, my consent is reaffirmed. On another though, and i am truly not trying to make anyone mad, but why become Someone’s slave, if you are worried about not having the power to veto?
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