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What say you?
By kaya | January 30, 2008
“slaves cannot meaningfully consent since they have no veto.”
(yanked from a TSR thread, in a comment by Tanos.)
That line keeps rolling around in my head, like there is something of great importance attached to it.
If one doesn’t have the power to refuse, then they also never had the power to accept.
This seems to blow the whole concept of “consent” right out of the water.
My brain has siezed. Any thoughts?
Tags: brainwashing, M/s rambles, opinions |
Isn´t this about consensual nonconsent?
There was a time (before i became a slave) when i could both accept and refuse. Then i choose to let go of that possibility and since then i can´t refuse my Owner and therefore my consent is meaningless.
I’m not sure. How can a slave even consent to nonconsent if there is no power TO consent in the first place?
I dunno. I’m kind of hung up on that one time transfer of power, or consent, in the beginning.
Is he talking the initial one time consent or continual consent? I do think a person has the right to refuse in the initial consent, but afterwards, yeah, I do think consent is gone, and its not something easily regained once lost. Then again, I know a lot of people who operate in relationships that they consider to be 24/7 slavery where the slave does have a vote, if only a 10-90% guaranteed lose. I think that slave still has a kind of consent in those situations.
This actually makes perfect sense to me, but I pretty much consider TPE relationships a very structured, slow form of brainwashing. I’m not saying this is a bad thing (although it can be), but I kind of just want to call it like it is. It’s a choice to be brainwashed, but nonetheless brainwashing - you’re becoming an extension of someone else.
Maybe I botched this totally. It’s been awhile since I’ve dabbled in BDSM Theory 486
In the discussion that he used that line in, the topic was “can a slave be raped”. What he said was, a slave is ALWAYS being raped, because they cannot give meaningful consent and sex without consent is rape. (I should add that he was giving several theories, and may not think that exclusively about rape).
I dunno. I’m gonna think on that line. I’m not even sure why it’s hit me as it has yet.
I agree with you about the brainwashing, btw. 100%.
I know this is totally illogical but I guess I feel something different about sex, and therefore rape. For me, rape can be inherent even with a loud and clear yes, and you can consent to sex even saying no. It goes beyond consent and into something with your body. Maybe it’s because it’s something primal… And the people involved know what happens there even if something isn’t said.
This is all interesting though.
My opinion on that question (Can a slave be raped?) isn’t a very popular one. I believe that slaves can be raped, but, unless it’s by someone who doesn’t own her and hasn’t been given permission to take her (by the person who owns her), it doesn’t matter. She shouldn’t have refused in the first place. Unless, of course, she’s been directed to refuse without a direct order from her owner. And then, still, if the person was given permission by her owner to take her then it doesn’t matter. Maybe her owner should have communicated his wish to her but he doesn’t really have to.
Disclaimer: I’m not saying this should be common practice. Allowing one’s property to be raped could raise some serious trust issues and also cause serious mental damage. Rape fantasies, while common, should be acted on with caution and care, if at all.
I couldn’t agree with you more.
I think that slaves do have meaningful consent. We consented to being in this lifestyle, we consented to being collared, we consented to not having any consent. (How many times can one word be used repeatedly) In my opinion, it goes along with the other post you did about no limits. As an example, if your Master told you to go rob a bank, if you gave away your power of consent and don’t have the option of saying no, then you’d have to rob the bank and go to jail. However, most slaves would (hopefully)say “no, Sir, I’m not robbing the bank” and therefore didn’t consent to what he wanted and used their veto power. Now, I understand this was an extremem example and most Masters wouldn’t order their slaves to do something illegal, but hopefully, you get my point.
But the theory is that if one maintains veto power, they aren’t “enslaved” yet.
So maybe, once again, it’s a question of semantics?
i think this goes along with another comment that i read once about TPE, (it was actually used by the person who first coined the phrase TPE, so this is the definition of the first guy who ever said TPE in the first place) wherein it was stated that one KNOWS that actual, complete TPE is essentially an “unattainable” and that the striving is to become as close as possible to that “unattainable” standards.
it is very much like christians and their striving to live “christlike” lives. christ was a perfect standard that no human CAN live up to. it’s simply not possible, but the goal is to get as close to that as you can.
personally, if TPE IS attainable, i want no part of it, but that’s me. i want to always be able to separate enough to say, “no sir, i won’t rob the bank”… and i do agree that technically, if they can say, “no sir, i won’t rob the bank” then they aren’t completely enslaved.
i don’t think YOU are “completely enslaved” yet, though i get the feeling you intend to be. (your brainwashing statements, and the fact that you think that is acceptable in training you to be his complete poropterty make it kind of clear.) i dont’ think i am, nor do i think i will ever be, because i think total enslavement is one of those “unattainables.” and i also know that my owner will not “brainwash” me. he seems to like me choosing, every day, to submit or not.
now, we have an M/s dynamic that i think is an absolute, because i only have one choice. i follow his wishes, or our dynamic is over. end of story. there is no negotiation. there is no, “i dont’ want to do that” and we still stay M/s. the moment i refuse His commands, i have chosen not to give over. i have made this a situation of negotiation instead of a situation of absolute.
when i say i am M/s, then i mean that in the dynamic i am in, there is an absolute power exchange. it is black/white, either/or. there is NO gray. it is either follow, and be his, or not, and be not-His, which means i am not a slave. period.
that is a definite. TPE is a work-in-progress, a journey, an ataining, and i believe that at least for me, it is an unattainable one. and that’s okay with us.
did that make sense?
interestingly, what defines my relationship as Dominant/submissive rather than Master/slave is that i currently have an exit option - which is what it sounds like you’re describing, unless i’m mistaken.
i’m wondering how it’s possible to have a Master/slave relationship that is *not* TPE. hm.
Well, for some people that IS the defining aspect of Master/slave. TPE. Anything other than TPE is D/s or.. whatever other “labels” there are.
But I dunno. Those definitions are written according to someone else’s opinion.. so.. they are only worth as much as someone wants to put stock in that person’s opinion, you know?
now see, i would say that having an “exit option” doesn’ make you D/s.. rather, having choices ona regular basis make you D/s. you have a choice witheverything he does. and veto power over some things. if he gives you a directive,and you say, “no. i’m not going to do that” does it mean you’re not his submissive, or simply that you’re not submitting at that moment?
if i say, flat out, “i’m not goin to do that” then our dynamic is OVER. i have reclaimed my ability to deny consent, and i am no longer His slave. his submissive, possibly, but once i break that line of “no consent” i cannot be His slave any longer.
yes, i think it’s possible to be M/s and not “be TPE” because i don’t thing TPE is a THING to be, but rather a way of living. often, the term TPE is used by elitists who throw it around like a statement of “what everyone who gives up consent in a relationship ought to be striving toward”. it feels very much like an “everyone must act this particular way” kind of thing. i prefer to be the s part of an M/s dynamic, and i do submit to my owner in everything. sometimes i struggle with it, and sometimes, it’s only the fact that i gave up my consent that keeps me from either disobeying or trying to weasel out of obeying, because i know that my only real choice is to dissolve the M/s bond.
TPE is a total power EXCHANGE. an exchange is an action. you perform an action. it’s what you DO, not what you ARE. my Owner and i perform the exchange. but we are not defined by it. i am a slave. i am not a TPE. but it IS what we do. we both have to do it together. i have to give it up, and he has to take it. contrary to what is sounds, a relationship utilizing TPE is an active engagement in the roles, not a solid “this IS”. because of the term “exchange”.
that’s just my opinion though, and my interpretation. obviously, others interpret it differently.
~melly, a slave in his house
I do not want to be able to say “no Sir I won’t rob the bank”. Though, agreed, I am not completely enslaved. Yet.
If I ever will be remains to be seen.
I’m not sure if it’s attainable or not. I think those who may have attained it aren’t blogging and aren’t talking, and we’ll never know how far they are.
I do understand this: “follow, and be his, or not, and be not-His”. That is how we are currently operating. But for us, that is not the ideal and is not the goal.
I want to compare it as consensual slavery vs. non-consensual slavery. A “victim” of a kidnap, or even the slaves of the 1800’s, a non-consensual slave… there is no consent and there is no power to *choose* to consent. That power was taken away at the point of enslavement. There is no way to reproduce that sort of scenario, at least not between Master and I, so I guess our goal is to get “as close as possible” to that identical mindset. And maybe that is not possible because it’s negated from the beginning by my initial consent.
Hmm. I dunno.
i would say that yes, true non-consentual slavery is not acheivable in individuals who start the ownership by consentual means.
you had to choose/consent to the first thing ever. you did have that choice. so, therefore, a non-con relationship that is a CONTINUATION of the one you already have is not possible.
(and to compound that, he also married you, which means if anything DOES happen you have rights now that are given to you by the state because you are his wife. one of the reasons that Sir does not wish to marry his slaves is because the legality of marriage gives the slave (9now wife) MORE inherent rights, not fewer.
if at some point you attempt to leave, and he prevents such, and refuses you your freedom, then you can start with non-con slavery. at that point though, you have definitely decided you do NOT want to be part of the relationship, you do NOT want to be part of his house, his anything, and that you want out. he is kidnapping you at that point. but then, at that point, you also clearly have not been “brainwashed” (your term) into complete internal enslavement, so one must assume you want out for a reason. ..
brainwashing is possible. andi don’t think it’s necessarily a bad thing to want to truly, honestly believe at some level that you have no choice to leave.
i am composing my oath of fealty to my Sir now, in preparation for His acceptance ofme as His own personal property and slave, and one of the things included is that i will remain in His service until HE chooses to release me. now, i know, theoretically, for myself, that there are situations where i would leave without His permission, but i don’t choose to dwell on those, instead, i opt to think AS IF I KNEW NO BETTER. i opt to behave AS IF I HAD NO CHOICE.
it’s a matter of attitude for me. i behave and act, and attempt to hink, as if i no longer have the right to refuse consent. but i do it because i am acutely aware that i gave it up. i voluntarily gave it up. and now, my own personal code of behaviour dictates that i adhere to what i have sworn.
it’s something the two of us share, this dynamic. it’ snot what works for everyone, but it brings out hte things that are most important in it to US.
i imagine one day, if you really wanted to, you could try to leave, and have Him thwart you. so you could know that he CAN force you to stay if he wants to.
but the thing is, if you really tried to leave, would he let you? (the kind of ownership described in tanos’ comment never says you have to want to stay. it just says you have no choice. you can hate every second of your slavery, and still be a slave, according to that. i gues it’s why submission is just as important to me as being his property. even if i AM his, i can still fight Him, or submit to him. that is something he cannot do, he cannot force my submission. he can force my acceptance of what he’s doing, but he cannot force my submission. and that is something that is true no matter what kind of slave you are, consentual or non consentual.
sometimes i think i understand what you are wanting as not non-con slavery, but instead a mental overwhelming to the point of an “anti-fight” mindset programmed into you, where you do not object, either mentally or physically, to anything he says or does. that’s cool. i understand that, and i do think it’s possible. it IS brainwashing. that’s fine too. (if you want that) but it’s not submission, and it’s not service either. in my head both of those things require knowledge that you have a choice not to. you can serve grudgingly, or you can submit willingly. or you can do, with the mindset of “no other alternative” and that requres neither submission nor service, but just.. action.
*whew.*
that was long. did clarify enough?
~melly, a slave in His house.
“it’s a matter of attitude for me. i behave and act, and attempt to hink, as if i no longer have the right to refuse consent”
I think that there are those, however few and far between, that choose to take this to the next level and no longer wish to simply *behave* or *act* as if they no longer have the right to refuse.
And I too think it’s possible. Where we part ways is this: “true non-consentual slavery is not acheivable in individuals who start the ownership by consentual means.”
It is absolutely feasible for a consensual relationship to become non-consensual. I think the main component of that is the EMOTIONAL hijacking that occurs along the way.
Thanks to all for the great discourse!
~magpie
melly,
When i married Master i signed a pre-nup that says, should we ever split, i get NOTHING! Everything is His in the marriage, and i would have no right to anything. Not to the houses (He has two that He owns now and is wanting to buy a third in the future), vehicles, investments, etc. Everything would be His and His alone. i would be able to have the clothes on my back if He chose to let me.
I have to be honest in saying that I do not view prenups, even in an M/s relationship, as a component of slavery at all. They might serve a purpose in a particular relationship…but they do not void all of the inherent rights that come with marriage. They serve only to stipulate what you will get financially if you split up. But with marriage there still come rights such as inheritance, etc. that cannot be removed even by legal action.
Basically…while I see your point on the prenup, the reality is that it only serves so much purpose.
As a thinking human being consentually enslaved and thinking you have given up all power you will still be a thinking human. You always have the option of saying no even if you have said you would not say it. I am not in a TPE relationship so only have an outside view from reading all of you but I would think they would not want an automaton of a slave. Where is the fun in that? Isn’t half the fun getting you to where they want you? That sent me off on a tangent so i am stopping before i have to start my own bog to ask and answer all my own questions lol. OK the point of my little ramble was you always have veto power even not using it is a choice.
Half the fun IS getting a slave to where they want her/him, that is true. So.. if that is HALF of the fun, what is the other half, if not enjoying what they’ve created?
I think for some people, the attraction of ownership is all about the constant and daily interaction of two thinking individuals. But for others, that process is NOT the attraction, the attraction or goal, is to end up with exactly the mindless robot of their evil little dreams. A “human thing”.
But I do agree that that “human thing” will continue to think. and may continue to have veto power, even if that veto power, once used, results in death or release.
Don’t get upset over my use of the word “death”. It’s merely something to consider because I often compare the depth of slavery I desire to the same kind of helpless obedience of a kidnap victim. That victim’s consequence of refusal could very well be death.. yet, no matter, she would still have that option, right?
Okay, I may need to wrap my head around this more but I can share my initial thoughts.
I think there has to be some aspect of consent in any relationship. I think that if the Master pulls out the worst tool in his arsenal, the slave is giving more of a nonverbal consent every time she/he bends over and takes it. You aren’t saying “yes” or “no” in a verbal, talking sense but you are agreeing to do because that’s what you wanted when you agreed to the relationship in the first place.
From my perspective, that is a type of consent. Just not the one that everyone rushes to think of when they hear the word.
If any of this makes sense, awesome.
I understand what you are saying.
I’m not even disagreeing so much as trying to examine this from every angle.
Do you still think the same thing if the girl (or boy) absolutely DOES NOT WANT to obey, does not want to bend over, does not want any of it, but does it anyway because she is no longer congnitive any other alternative? (brainwashed or whatever, if that is even possible)
What if the “choice” is obey or die? Not obey or leave, but obey or be killed. Is that still a choice?
And… given your past reactions to this topic, let me say it in the exact manner it was presented and if you would, tell me your thoughts on it: “A slave is ALWAYS raped because slaves cannot meaningfully consent since they have no veto.”
Whatcha think?
I think I consented to letting him fuck me whenever he wants to BEFORE I became owned.
Hence, no, I am not being raped.
I may not like every sexual interaction but I certainly consented to them all.
That was always my opinion too. Still is.
I consented to anything and everything so I can’t be abused, I can’t be raped and I can’t be.. whatever.
Even if He “gave” me to someone else for sex, I wouldn’t say I was being raped. Even if I had begged him not to and had refused, in that moment, to give permission. Even if I fought it and resisted and was thrown down and used by this other guy anyway, I don’t think I could say that I was raped. It was a blanket consent.
Though I might FEEL raped.
Exactamundo.
It might hurt.
Lots of things hurt.
It might scar me, fuck me up for awhile.
Stuff does, sometimes.
But raped?
And always raped?
Bah.
That’s nonsense.
That’s sort of like paying to go into a haunted house, signing a form that says it’s really scary and you realize it’s going to be scary and are okay with scary and then coming out and accusing them of scaring you!
“That’s sort of like paying to go into a haunted house, signing a form that says it’s really scary and you realize it’s going to be scary and are okay with scary and then coming out and accusing them of scaring you!”
Ha! That’s perfect!
No.
I will not and can not agree that slaves are raped, at least in the BDSM/TPE sense. I think the slaves we stole from Africa before the civil war were raped against their will and were consistently faced with the obey or die scenario you brought up. But I see that as entirely different from the TPE Master/slave relationships that I’ve observed online thus far.
I was thinking about this a bit and I think the consent between Master and slave is established when the TPE relationship begins. And the slave consents to the Master because he tells her too (and I think, in part, because she wants too).
Not being a slave, Im looking at this from the outside.
I think no matter what situation you are in, be it a “24/7″ TPE, or just a plain marriage, there is always room for an opinion to be heard.
Being a slave, its true, you may not get your wish and your voice may go unheard BUT thats the “choice” you made when you relented and submitted. I think that being able to set aside those rare moments of no TPE or D/s are healthy and give couples a chance to reasses limits, hear each other as people (not as Master and slave)
I know folks wont agree with me and thats fine. Im just a sub, not a slave and my voice is heard often and my ideas, wants, desires are heard and taken into consideration, even if they are ignored. I am still heard.
I am happy in my submission and being able to draw a line. I like having a to say “um no thats beyond my limits” and He still respects me. But I will say.. I am an extension of Him. I reflect on Him 24/7 and I keep myself to my normal high standards so that Im never an embarassment of Him. Thats why I get my “veto” and still serve with a smile.
you know, i really hate to hear people say “i’m JUST a sub”, because it feels to me like you are belittling your role because you’re not big and bad enough to be a slave. i used to think i was “just” a sub. and i tried hard to find my peace with that. (i found out that i really do want to be a slave, bu, that doesn’t make it any less valid that i was submissive before.
being a submissive is just as huge a journey as being a slave. sometimes, even moreso, because you don’t have the “well, i can’t say no. i’m a slave. i gave up my consent.” thing to fall back on in times of struggle. (i will admit, it helps me often to think that because i’ve given up my consent, i need to find a way to be at peace with my task instead of fighting it.)
being able to negotiate choices and voice preferences doesn’t make your submission any less potent. just differently formatted.
though it’s just a “semantics” thing for some, i tend to twitch a little when i hear “just” before “submissive.” it’s like saying “i’m just a woman” or “i’m just a mom, not a career person”.
i’m really glad you are solid and comfortable in your place.
~melly
I reflect on Him 24/7 and I keep myself to my normal high standards so that Im never an embarassment of Him.
And I, for one, am glad that you think that way. Now.
I also agree with melly that “just a sub” is no way to say it. It does smack of “less than” and it shouldn’t. I might even go so far as to say that being a submissive is harder than being a slave, because that consent is such an ongoing process and I imagine that the tempation to NOT consent is strong. Being able to fall back on the “slave excuse” is actually pretty handy. Kind of like not having to claim any responsibility for making a mistake.
Not that I would do that. Much.
My apologies to you both. I dont mean to belittle my role in His life. Its jut that I dont have the guts to move forward just yet and take that leap to consensual slavery. I am His all and His everything, but just not a slave, yet. He is guiding me that way and Im working towards wrapping my mind around that.
He has stated more than once that He refuses to not let me speak my mind. He likes my opinions, He likes it when I think and He loves it when I stand up for something Im passionate about, even if He doesnt always agree. I found a blog that is alot of what I want in my lifestyle exploration and showed Him. He asked how I would react to my face and body naked on a site, and I said as long as my face was obscured and my tats I would do it for Him. His first question ..what if I say no to that? I said well I have to protect the privacy of my children. He nodded, smiled and said of course. He likes that my submission is important, that I am willing to try new things and move forward towards slavery, but that protecting my privacy is valued.
So I guess in a way, Im not just a sub. Im HIS sub, His sub with attitude and a brain. Thanks for reminding me that Im so much more.
I find it interesting that so many I know classify themselves differently based on things like speaking their mind. You say he refuses to not let you speak your mind. So many view that as a distinguishing characteristic between “sub” and “slave.” You may not, but your focus on that concept made me wonder if you do.
This is just my .02 here…but the way you phrased that seemed the perfect description to me. It demonstrates precisely how it goes both ways. “He refuses to not let me speak my mind.” What I take out of that statement is twofold: (1) You get to speak your mind, and it is important to him that you get that chance; (2) You do not HAVE to speak your mind if you do not want to.
My Master is actually similar in that regard. He has always encouraged me to speak my mind, even before we got into D/s and M/s (however you choose to categorize it). He does not want me to lose my passion, opinions, etc., because that is a big part of why he loves me, and why he wants me around.
I would distinguish my situation in that regard from the impression I get of yours in two ways only. (1) While Master values me speaking my mind, there are times when my voice IS silenced - though that silence has never been permanent, only temporary. In that way he “refuses” to not let me speak my mind, but occasionally he chooses to delay it. (2) Sometimes I am ordered to speak my mind when I do not want to. This evening was the perfect example, actually. I was kneeling beside Master, in a situation where I was free to get up and move about if/when I wished. I had a horrible day today, and was very upset, and it was making me more upset kneeling there in silence, waiting for him to finish what he was doing. I decided to go change my clothes into comfy, home clothes, which he had earlier given me permission to do whenever I wished. I got up and went to the door in silence. He looked at me and asked what I was doing. I said “don’t worry about it” because I didn’t want to talk about why I was changing, and that I was upset, etc. until/unless he had time to hear it all. He then said in “that” voice: “Erlina, where are you going.” I knew I had no choice but to tell him then and there.
I know this is random and of topic…your response just got me thinking of how many subs/slaves I know who seem to think that a person who speaks their mind cannot possibly be a slave. (The whole “True Slave” idiocy and all that…) But your phrasing, in my eyes, demonstrated precisely why it doesn’t matter if the person speaks his/her mind - it is the intent behind it that matters.
kaya,
i have to stop reading here as all your topics have been so good lately i am spending too much time reading what all your readers have to offer!
The thing that resonated with me was penguinskitty’s statement that even though we consider ourselves slaves, we are in fact still consenting every time we accept the ….. whatever it is we do not want.
We are bound by honor and our word, but technically most of us could, in fact, leave if we chose…does that make us not “real” slaves? Maybe not..and i know i could not just walk away…Master would make every reasonable effort to compel me to honor my vow of slavery, but in truth without it being consensual, i don’t think He would wish to own me. Does that not mean W/we have never had that discussion…i am leaving..You shall not…i go..but like a dog to her cage…i don’t go far and i always return and usually it ends up with me saying…Why did You let me go? Do You not want me here to serve You? and Him saying He must know i serve freely, not necessarily gladly ;<( but freely.
Is that not consent by a slave? I don’t know…and again begs the question of what is a slave..i don’t own a car any longer..i don’t own my home, i have no separate monies…so if Master chose to withhold those things from me, He could…but still i could run..and that happens all to often in the vanilla world..and it is abuse…which is not the definition i accept of consensual slavery..which Tanos would see as an oxymoron anyway, i presume!
OK…write something mindless next with sexy pictures!!lol
~s/nik
You bring up some good points. So if you have no monies of your own, no place to live, no car, no easy access to the things that make actually leaving a viable option, are you enslaved still by choice, or because there is no way out?
I mean, I know that you are enslaved by choice,,, but the reason that those measures work in the vanilla world by abusive partners is precisely because cutting off the means of “escape” further dependence and entrapment. So if that is occuring in an M/s relationship, at some point does it ever cross the line from being just a standard operation of control to a measure of entrapment?
If, we are all in agreement that we are here by choice and bound by honor, why bother with those supposed unnecessary measures of control, if not for the purpose of limiting identity and means of separation?
Tomorrow, I promise pictures and nothing else!..lol (If Master lets me..teehee)
i make myself sound like a nun!! And in a certain way..that is true…except for the sex thing!! i am the freest i have ever been in my life, bound in slavery!! i sold my home, car, threw out stuff galore…wish i could have dejunked even more would make my role as domestic servant easier…i moved into my Masters home and he provides me with a car so it is not like i am house bound…and i said i have no SEPARATE monies…so not having a mortgage, not having to worry about car repair, insurance…well, you get my drift…i am aware of all of these things..but i was a single parent for a good long while and moved into a home my Master has owned for 20 years…so it does feel like freedom to me!
Could he order me to leave? of course..but it again speaks to the limits thing..when i made the decision to accept Master’s collar, my only decider was knowing the man and the degree of trust and faith i had that His limits would be safe for me. He is not going to tell me to rob a bank, so that always seems ridiculous when people use that..it’s like me saying to my kids when they were little..”if everyone else jumped off the roof does that mean you would too?” As our relationship grows W/we both have had O/our limits pushed together..the level of openness and trust required from both to live as Master/slave is incredible…for anyone able to find that in the vanilla world (and i think some do!) i say “FANTASTIC”!! It just didn’t work out that way for me..
Back to the car and work thing..you had a post not too long ago when you were deciding about going back to work/school that really stuck with me for a long time..popped back up now..about is in truly possible to function so much outside of the home without it eroding the enslavement between the parties..(i paraphrase!)And i do struggle with that..i went back to work right before Christmas and it has been both a plus and a minus…mainly the energy that it takes to function professionally and then to come home and still try to maintain the same level of service…but if He gets up to get His own drink or whatever..it feels like a smack..like He is saying i am not meeting all of his needs..so it is a balancing act for us all. But i do believe i live within the boundaries of consent…so maybe just not slave..to some…
PICTURES=GOOD!!!
O GOOD! I have spent all day thinking and not working because I am reding all that is here. : ) When I get in trouble in an hour I am blaming Kaya. : )
LOL
I am blameless!
Although, if taking the blame will get me spanked then I am guilty!
When one falls in love, does one “consent” to love? Do we make that choice and say “Yes, I will love you”, or is it more of a one day we’re ho-hum thinking we like someone, and the next day we’re like, “Holy shit, I LOVE him/her. Now what?” Never realizing how it happened? I don’t know of anyone who has made a conscious decision to love.
I liken my slavery to just that. Which to me, puts a non-consensual lilt on it. The brainwashing idea. (Which is fucking scrumptious, btw.)
But that’s exactly what it is. He is a Dominant that wanted to fuck me and I was a submissive that very much wanted to BE fucked. ZERO intentions of committing, let alone becoming M/s. But lo and behold, through the years and many ups & downs, I realized, “Goddamn, I really CAN’T walk away.” I do not have the mental, emotional, or physical fortitude to walk. Can that be construed as a slow brainwash towards non-consent? Would I feel better if I could say “No, Master, I won’t rob that bank.” Sure I would, but can I sit here and say it with 100% honesty? No I cannot.
I believe that we all start with consent, but that we can also end up with none.
I asked him the other day, when I was *snicker* making a decision, where HE stopped and I began. He simply said, “You Don’t.”
THAT, I can’t refuse.
~ a long-winded magpie
GOOD point. I like that.
I think some people refuse to accept that it is ever possible to lose the mental, emotional, or physical fortitude to walk. That it’s as impossible as someone claiming that their Master is going to teach them how to fly.
if you say you have no consent at all ever, and never did then i would say there is no exchange. not even the most basic notion. exchange does NOT apply. and TPE does not apply. there is no exchange! no one is giving anything up, no one is taking anything. that is a definite BEING. and that is like predestination. “you were mine to begin with, before, and when i found you, then of course you ere mine. you had no other choice BUT to be mine, and you had no choice NOT to be mine. so you are mine, and that’s all there is to it.”
kind of like if you don’t know your birth mother, but you meet her one day, you can say all you want to “you’re not my mother!!” but she is. she birthed you, you share her DNA. she IS your mother. but that doesn’t mean there’s a relationship.
the kind of ownership implied in the original post has nothing to do with a relationship, or with any choice at all, ever, not even a total one. no exchange, at all, ever.
in that situation, a power exchange is just a ruse. there is none. your ‘giving up’ power meant nothing. it wasn’t yours. you cna make a show of giving up, giving in, but it sdoesn’t matter. you can’t choose. your submission means nothing. you never had the right to say no in the first place. you cant submit, because you had no power not to.
submission, giving up, surrender, it all has no bearing, no meaning whatsoever. you had no choice at all from the get-go.the best you as the owned can ever hope for is peaceable acceptance of your situation. “well, she IS my birth mother. but i hate her.” well, that’s unfortunate, but your hating her won’t change it. “well, she’s my birth mother. i want to have a relationship that is meaningful with her!” great. won’t make a lick of difference as to whether or not she’s your mother.
the only difference in the situation is the attitude of the person in it. nothing else is changeable at all.
is that the kind of 2 by 4 you were looking for?
~melly
I’m thinking, I’m thinking.
“you cant submit, because you had no power not to”
Exactly! That is, to me, the goal of internal enslavement. Not submitting.. but simply *being* and *doing* because there is no other alternative.
But whether or not a person could ever get to the point where they stop *thinking* of other alternatives, rather than thinking and then choosing not to act on them, is a mystery. A matter of opinion I suppose.
Which is, again, why I like the whole brainwashing thing. I suspect that is the only way that process *might* occur.
hoo, boy. i kinda figured that might be it. (see, i’m kinda peering into your brain, just a little *grin*) and i think, that right there, is where the two of us part ways in how we ourselves want to be, optimally.
if that is your definition of IE, then i want no part of it. but i totally respect your decision to do it! and more power to ya!(i also do not think this is TPE either. i am of the opinion that IE supersedes TPE in the mind. if you have IE, then TPE is no longer an available option.)
for Sir and i both, the act of submission is a big deal, so i don’t think he would want to rid me of it, and i don’t want to serve without it. He likes that i give up, that i give over, and that i CHOOSE to serve and submit to Him.
maybe it’s an ego thing. if i have no other choice, then that doesnt mean he’s anything more than just a guy who happened to be the one to get me. it means nothing in terms of my desire to serve Him.
i guess maybe ifrom my own personal preferences, i don’t see the benefit of having an IE slave. why someone would want one, as opposed to having a slave that chooses to serve you. do you have any insight into that? i’m really interested to know…
~melly, a slave in His house
Although we are in relationships where the dynamic is quite different, I would like to answer your question as regards why anyone would want to have an IE slave.
Much the same as your Dominant enjoys that you *choose* to submit to him, that every moment you are together is a *choice* in his favor, another Dominant may find great and intense pleasure from becoming such a large part of his/her slave’s world that there are simply no *choices* other than the Master’s choice. That he has such an impact in/on her life that there are no options for her, but his. IE seems to me to be something worked on over a period of time…why would it be hard to believe someone wouldn’t find pleasure in creating something to their liking?
And, I am unsure as to why the “mindless automoton” thing gets slung around so much. One can have all the personality in the world and still cede their will to another…
~magpie
see, on your last line, you put consent back in. if you are ceding your will to another is to consent in some way. doing what he says is choosing. NOT choosing means you don’t have a right to choose, and never will. it is not ceding your will.
and you didn’t answer my question at all, but it was stupid as a question anyway. why does anyone like what we like? i like to be spanked. he likes to choke me with His cock. kaya likes sperm. some folks like to have their slaves sexed by dogs. i like to have my choice. and some folks don’t. it doesn’t appeal to me, and i dont really have an explanation why.
so, nobody has to give me onw of why the DO like it.
i do know that the “mindless automaton” thing has just a little to do with ego. it’s the line of thinking that say, if they have no choice but to be with you, you could have gotten a blow up doll, or paid a hooker(and even a hooker can refuse johns they don’t like the looks of). but to have someone voluntarily decide to do what you want, that places importance on not the slave, but the MASTER. THEY are good enough that you WANT to submit to them. and i’d like to be able to continue that with my owner, not have my resistance eliminated. it also reduces the slaves worth to zero, which i suppose can be a point, but if a slave is worthless, why have one? if ANYTHING is worthless, why have it?
i suppose it means that you cannot use your slave as justification of your own worth. which i suppose is a sign that they find enough worth in themselves that they don’t need a slave/sub to verify their worth. and i guess, the slave then is freed of having to be “worthy” they’re already worthless, except for whatever purpose their master gives them. i imagine it could be very .. freeing… i find a certain freedom in my submission, but i’m not sure i ever want to be THAT free.
but it’s still not something i want. *shrug* to each their own.
It makes me a little sad, as with the slave vs. submissive issues, and so many other debates in the BDSM “community”, that lots of people probably equate IE with “worthless”. I’m not saying YOU do, melly, just that you used that word. Obviously, if a Dominant sets out to “create” something, he’s going to create what he desires. Yes, the journey itself is great and difficult and yummy, but the end result (whatever it may be) is useful and yummy and wanted as well. Or why build it in the first place?
Additionally, we all cede to our Dominants. That’s a given. It’s what is done with that initial surrender, and how far it is pushed and manipulated, that makes the difference as regards where we finally find ourselves.
And you’re right, to each their own. It’s so wonderful how many levels of this there are to be discovered, isn’t it?!
~magpie
I dunno about insight into why. Why does anyone want a slave, even one that chooses to submit daily? I mean.. who the heck knows why..lol
Although, this is something that popped into my head while thinking about it. You said “He likes that i give up, that i give over, and that i CHOOSE to serve and submit to Him.” and you do that every moment of every day.
But… that still leaves you with the option of choosing NOT to submit. Even if it means the end of your relationship, you can choose that. Which also means that your Sir knows that you have that option, which means that at some point, conceivably, He could “lose” you. You could walk out the door and never look back, in spite of all of the training and work He’s put into you.
So maybe the why of the other is knowing that *no matter what* the Master will not lose His creation. It cannot happen. Ever.
That’s a thought anyway.
As for what it means, maybe if it was done in the manner of “perpetrator and victim” He would be “just the guy who got me”. But, if it happens to someone as strong-willed and mouthy and opinionated as *I* am? I’d think that says a LOT about his abilities and his dedication to making me into what he wants me to be. Half of it IS the journey.. the other half is reaping the reward.
Hi kaya
This is my first ever comment on your blog, and I had to go and pick a real doosey, huh?
First, I went to Tanos’ site and poked around a bit. He has a belief in Internal Enslavement, where by the slave INITIALLY consents to have no future consent. He further goes on to define said slave with this definition:
Oxford English Dictionary: “One who is the property of, and entirely subject to another person, whether by capture, purchase or birth; a servant completely divested of freedom and personal rights.” When we say “slave”, we mean literal slave, defined in this way. (Thank goodness for copy and paste)
So, under this definition, his statement is true.
slaves cannot meaningfully consent since they have no veto
I personally do not believe that any person can achieve this level of slavery, unless they are born into it, and it is legally acceptable where they live. Because, frankly, if a slave has had enough, there is nothing (legally) stopping that slave from leaving, assuming they do live where slavery is NOT legal. Do people strive for this level of slavery? Yes of course. Do they achieve it? In many ways, yes. But ultimately no, they do not. Because, unless you live in very small parts of the world where slavery (by his definition) is still practiced, then once that door is open, the ’slave’ can just walk out if he or she WANTED to.
Hmm… just my two cents.
~twisted
Hi!
I agree with most of what you said. In this day and age, actual owned slavery is not happening. Perhaps in places it is. Certainly 20/20 seems to find places in Africa and India and such to do stories on.
But that’s a whole nother ballgame.
Around these parts, legally I can walk out the door at any time and there is *nothing* He can do about it. I am a “free” human in the eyes of the law. I stopped being “property” right around 1900 or so.
But the internal enslavement process is what really piques my interest. Is it possible? Is it a myth? Is it a pipedream?
Is it possible to alter someone’s mind so fundamentally that they cease being a person of independent thought and decision? Is it possible to strip away someone’s identity, a person’s sense of self? Is it possible to make the *choice* of obedience become, instead, a matter of not something even thought about but rather something done because the option of doing anything else ceases to exist?
That’s where the dissention lies. Some people see it as you described it. That the option to leave never disappears. But other people say that by psychological “brainwashing”, the option to leave, while legally still there, is no longer *mentally* there.
“Is it possible to make the *choice* of obedience become, instead, a matter of not something even thought about but rather something done bec