Reminders
I’ve got two different topics here, both inspired by Chloe, cuz she rocks with the inspiration.
First, she wrote this bit on Culture Shock, which you should go read.
A short synopsis for those of you who won’t listen and go read it, you obstinate boobs: A woman she knows came from Iran, born and raised to be a submissive wife and how her submissive ways do NOT rely on her husband being dominant. She just IS. It’s a state of BEING. Not an active exchange of D/s. She is submissive regardless.
Here’s where I leave Chloe’s thoughts and start my own. Because Chloe’s post was just the spark, Fetlife (of course!) added fuel to the fire.
What happens on Fet is this: Some poor person makes a comment, something to the effect of “Master did so-n-so to remind me of my place.” Or “I need my collar to remind me of my place.” Or “We use ritual and protocal to remind me of my place.”
See the common thread there? Someone actually states that they need reminded of their place sometimes.
And all holy hell breaks loose on Fetlife. The holier-than-thou Submissives move in for the kill. Like a pack of Queen Bees, they snark and shame that poor girl into silence.
THEY do not need reminded of their place.
THEY do not understand how someone can forget their place.
THEY chose, and committed to being a slave, and therefore, the angels have smiled upon them and they shit perfect rainbows of submission.
THEY do not need reminded that they are mothers, or women, or wives, so how does one ever need to be reminded that they are slaves??
They shake their heads, tsk, roll their eyes, scoff.. just, yanno, generally be big bitches.
Women are SO GOOD at being bitches. So very good. I do think that may be why I decided not to be a lesbian after all. *nods* (And that I really really like cock, but that has nothing to do with this convo.)
So, in Chloe’s post, she was talking about how it’s the cultural norm for women in Iran to be submissive to their husbands, and how cool it is to witness that sort of marital D/s without the labels and the angst and the internet forum discussions. Watching D/s in its most organic form, I admit, would be pretty damn cool.
She also said she is working on (or has achieved?) that sort of organic submission herself. Where her submissiveness is not dependent on his dominance, how it just becomes the natural state of being and ceases relying on HIM to keep her in place. She stays there because… well, because. Because it just IS.
Now, don’t get me wrong here. I think Chloe is on to something profound and neat and it is definitely a goal to strive for.
But.
Cuz there is always a but.
D/s is not the cultural norm in our society (which Chloe readily acknowledges), therefore, to me, it seems completely reasonable that women *today* who *choose* to submit, who haven’t been born and bred to do so, DO require a consistent and constant “force” from the other side to help them maintain that place.
At the very least, needing that active dominance is not, should not be, a shameful admission.
Just as one could say that if you are going to be a submissive then just be a submissive without requiring certain acts from your dominant, then shouldn’t it also be that if one is going to be a dominant, then just be dominant regardless of your submissive’s behaviors?
I’m really trying to imagine Master ordering me around if I *weren’t* submissive and how well that would NOT work.
I understand the point of just being submissive, of not relying so heavily upon the active dances, of finding the peace that reigns when it just is what it is.
Because, that’s really nice. And, I think I’m there actually. There’s not a system in place where my submission depends *entirely* upon his actions. Somehow, because he’s really really good at what he does, he’s taken my original kink, that need to be forced into submission, and turned it around so that doing it while being ignored, has become even kinkier than being forced (beaten into it).
I’m being forced by non-force. How fucked up is THAT?
However, there IS a give and take. There has to be because I am not an altruistic servant. I do require acts of dominance, they DO remind me of my place, I DO begin to falter without them, I AM fueled by his actions, and I DO need things from him.
Fortunately, dominance is also HIS state of being. It’s not work for him to be consistent and constant with his requirements. It just IS.
Therefore, I can just BE, as well.
Without some instances and acts of dominance and submission, we’re not M/s. We’re just… an old married couple, cruising along with the cultural norm. And that is so NOT what I want in this lifetime.
Which brings me to my next topic, which isn’t one of the original two that I mentioned earlier. In fact, I probably won’t get to the original second topic.
Anyway.
About that force fetish. I still have it.
It’s really strong too. It’s… deep-seated. It itches. It niggles at my brain, my soul! It’s- okay okay. It’s not quite THAT melodramatic, but close!
See, what I wanted when I first began fantasizing about BDSM was to be forced to do *everything*. To have my every move, my every activity of daily living be determined by a force other than myself. That doesn’t mean somene standing over me telling me what to eat weilding a whip- well, yes, actually it did. That is what I fantasized about, in my more extreme moments.
Mostly, the fantasy centered around having dire consequences for not obeying.
And by dire, I mean, banning me from American Idol or something.
No, not really. I’d hate that actually.
Remember when I talked about that Stephen King book about the abused wife? Rose Madder? That’s what I fantasized about. Getting to a place where to NOT obey ceased being an option.
And so, yanno, Master really doesn’t roll that way. Because, he’s not an abuser. And because he doesn’t think submission should require that much work.
He’s right.
So, after many months of figuring that out for myself and learning to submit out of more… pure… desires, I was still left with the very real, and very much unfulfilled, force fetish.
The other day, when I said I was playing up the martyr angle? I meant that! I am playing it up. Because that’s about the only way I can scratch that itch. It’s the only way we’ve found where he gets the easy submission he wants and I get the forcing I want.
There are SO MANY things about bdsm that I hate. That I really really loathe. And I am SO TIRED of having to pretend to enjoy them. It’s like, if I don’t pretend to enjoy it, then someone thinks badly of Master, and that really kills me, yanno? He’s such a good guy.
For instance, I don’t like pain. I just like having to endure it because there is no choice NOT to. I don’t crave the pain, I crave the humiliation of being beaten like a dog, of being tied down and hurt, of being forced to accept what I hate.
I think it works that way for a lot of people. At least, a lot of who I talk to say the same thing. It’s not the specific acts that pull you in, it’s the overall allure of being forced to do that which one hates.
So, I’m just not going to worry anymore about trying to save face. Even Master’s. He’s a big boy, he can handle the scrutiny (like how I tossed him under the bus? tee hee)
I’m not going to say “Oh yes I love it” whenever the question is asked, because I don’t love it. I hate it. I just love that he makes me do it anyway.
Sometimes I think even HE wants me to say that I love it when I don’t.
Sometimes I wish he’d get a touch more “abusive” with me. I wish he were more.. comfortable.. being thought of as an abuser. But that’s.. wow.. that’s really not fair to him.
God. The pressure people put you under to ease their own minds.
*wistful sigh*
This post is pretty weird, huh? Probably I should have chosen easier topics to get my groove back before going all crazy with letting my thoughts poor out.
Ah well. It is what it is, as Master would say.
Actually, this COULD be a prime example of me NEEDING one of those overt acts of dominance to remind me of my place. I told you I start to falter without them!
~cunt
Tags: general, M/s rambles
Uncategorized | kaya | 
Thursday July 23rd, 2009 8:58am
Hear Hear!!
I really liked this post. Can’t put my finger on what I like about it, but reading it was really educational and cool. Though I do disagree with the raised-to-be-submissive-wife thing being the ‘right’ thing. There IS a difference between submissive-wifey-ness being the norm, and those who have a choice choosing to be submissive. The CHOICE being the important factor. Oh-uh… now I’m rambling on your blog.. sorry!!! *grin*
Jelly´s last blog ..Smallness
Kaya,
I wonder if any of those BDSM “morality police” have ever considdered that maybe, just maybe, some Masters get off on the fact that their slave needs the reminders of their place (and won’t it piss them off to be called morality police!)? I don’t follow many of the master and slave forums over at fetlife, partly because I already have a good handle on things from reading yours, Toy’s, Blue’s and Persephone’s blogs (oh, and the recently added Rayne). The key thing I;ve learned, and I try to include it in my stories, is…diversity…(God, how PC is that) makes good BDSM. Mybe I should follow more of them just to whack the trolls when they pop their heads up (game of whack a troll, anyone).
As for your evolution/metamorphasis, I’ve enjoyed watching it happen. The world, and we people in it aren’t static, we change. I’ve heard people complain about how much Laurell Hamilton has changed Anita Blake from where she started and how bad that is. Good grief, that’s why I love the serries, the characters grow and change, become more and different from what they were, just…like…real…people.
Dave
i think we always need reminders or our life.
sometimes we forget we are parents until our grown children tell us how much they needed us last week.
sometimes we forget to appreciate the beauty all around us until we see a spectacular sunset or see a baby being born.
sometimes we forget how to behave and a lil spanking wakes us up.
sometimes we forget how lucky we are just to be alive until someone very close to us dies.
reminders always ‘wake’ us up and give us a bright new perspective on a subject.
how boring would life be without them?
I thought this was a genius post.
I hope I will remember to post about it but until then . . .
I totally get wanting your Master to be more abusive. Hee.
Also . . . about Culture Shock . . . I’m not sure it’s a totally fair comparison, because although the wife is probably culturally “conditioned” to behave in the ways she does, her husband is also probably culturally conditioned to behave in ways that aren’t precisely dominant, but might be expectations anyway. Chloe says, “She’s submissive because she took a vow of marriage and she takes it, and everything her culture demands it entail, seriously.” But presumably the culture also demands something of him–maybe to provide for her, or whatever. I’m not saying it’s equal–it may NOT be equal. But there might be circumstances under which she would not “just take” it, and in that case, she would no longer be being submissive, because it would be culturally okay not to.
Or not. Heck, I don’t know them, or Chloe even, but I loved the post.
Sera´s last blog ..Stop This Train
I think, for me… I am most surprised by the woman I wrote about (or perhaps most awed?) when I realize what a DOOFUS her husband is being.
I have no idea how she keeps her cool, keeps her mouth shut… Maybe I’m just a raging bitch and a crappy sub, huh?
His culture played a part in the fact that he rules the roost, for sure, but his personality is one of disinterest. And he makes remarkably bad choices that my friend, (his son Rais) will have to argue with him about. Being the firstborn son, Rais gets a good say, so things stay on track… But through it all? The wife discusses and stuff… But she’s jut got this zen sort of state to her.
It blows my friggin’ mind.
It’s cool to watch, more than anything else…
And you can go RIGHT ahead and cross off he part about me having achieved an sort of zen state. Pffft.
If either of the two of us are zen, it’s Antonio. He is, like you were saying about Scott, simply a natural Master. His state of being is just dominant. (Can I explain how much I get off on the fact that other people respond to him as a dominant force? From coworkers to strangers, people just seem to know He’s In Charge. It makes me tingle…)
I feel I AM naturally submissive… But I think the reason he doesn’t struggle with dominance and I struggle with submission on occasion is because in our culture, yep, I am not the norm. And a man in a position of power still IS the norm. But a woman who isn’t hellbent on saying “I deserve the SAME position of power!” (aka, me) is looked at like a freakshow.
So I guess I’m fighting the social norms to foster my personal “norm.”
Oh, and… Looking back… I hope I didn’t come off like a twat who said that this was the right way or anything… It’s just cool to watch. And it’s something I want. For me. Not for everyone. Everyone else should do whatever makes THEM happy. If it’s lots of reminders or brattiness or some form of parent/child discipline stuff (Hai, I’m Chloe and I butcher BDSM terms because I don’t know any proper ones)… That’s awesome.
I just know Antonio would boot my ass to the curb for acting like that. I honestly don’t think I could muster it either. ‘Cause it doesn’t work for us. But if it works for someone else? Sweet.
And sweet Jesus, this is a long comment. (Be shocked, I dare you.)
To quote a comment in my own blog, from an awesome individual *winks suggestively*… “I’m in yer comments, sucking up all yer bandwidth.”
~Chloe, who kinda has to pee, and really didn’t need to share that…
Chloe´s last blog ..Actions Speak Louder Than Words
I have read a few of your posts concerning the issue of needing input to keep up the submissive side. Now, I am not living in any kind of 24/7 relationships so I can’t say too much about the submissive part. But your thoughts on this had got me thinking, and I hope you won’t be offended by this because that is not at all my intention.
I wanted to be a vegetarian, that was something that felt right deep down inside of me. But it was hard because, let’s face it, meat is darn good. So I struggled for a few years, going through a mental process until I got the point where my reasons for wanting to be a vegetarian were stronger and deeper than the wish for meat.
After I finally made the decision, it has never been a problem. Sure, meat would still be good. I can see a dish and feel tempted – but never to the point of eating it.
You might find this comparison stupid, but I was thinking if that kind of submission might not be something of the same, when it comes to the process? If I hadn’t done that two year long process beforehand, I would struggle everytime I saw a meat dish.
I think that is a pretty brilliant comparison actually.
Of course, I might just think that because I’ve been a vegetarian for fifteen years and it’s the easiest thing in the world and I’ve only been working on active submission to my Gent for five years now and it’s still pretty damn tricksy at times
No matter how strong your desire, it still takes work. That goes for careers, marriages, M/s, vegetarianism and so much more!
as a 24/7 male submissive, i tend to disagree with anything that claims women are somehow “naturally” submissive. i also dont think that being raised in a culture that treats one sex as natrually submissive and the other as dominant is in any way better.
the ability to choose based on who YOU are (whether male or female) and knowing that this was a conscious choice you made that makes you happy is the best part of bdsm, and in my opinion an integral part.
when my mistress punishes me….hard and painfully… i accept it not because i must stay in an abusive relationship i hate, but because I am willfully submissive and accept the place I have happily chosen (even if i dont as happily accept the punishment….)
great blog by the way!! ill be visiting you more often!!
Whats the name of that Stephen king book? Id like to read it
She mentioned it in the post, it’s Rose Madder… but to be fair, it’s definitely not focused on the submission in the relationship, it’s a story of a woman overcoming a legitimately abusive relationship. Not really BDSM, more true domestic abuse.
Agreed. And somewhere in the middle of the book, the story just goes… wierd.. I believe that S.K. has said something among the lines of “I was so drunk when I wrote that piece of crap” about it. It’s his least favourite book of his own books.
I like the first half of it, but not the second, personally.
I’m a strong believer in the fact that there are some cultures where women ‘are submissive’. Japan was very much like that for me, but it wasn’t like they had tv ads blaring ‘Women-folk be submissive!’ or anything, it was just an unspoken given that women made tea and men made the decisions.
Living in that sort of a society was very comforting for me because I got to play up the ‘martyr angle’ a lot
subtle´s last blog ..A little poll
I really liked this post…specially…
*For instance, I don’t like pain. I just like having to endure it because there is no choice NOT to. I don’t crave the pain, I crave the humiliation of being beaten like a dog, of being tied down and hurt, of being forced to accept what I hate*
and…
Very good post, thank you. I sometimes wonder what it is about the pain. It feels bad, but afterwards, I fell good. And the memory of it happening, of him standing over me, me submitting, that is so powerful and I find myself shuddering in awe when he reaches out to touch me. If it does not happen frequently, I lose that. I find myself craving it.
It does not feel like humiliation to me. It almost is spiritual, or maybe hypnotic?
Anyway, thanks,
x
“However, there IS a give and take. There has to be because I am not an altruistic servant. I do require acts of dominance, they DO remind me of my place, I DO begin to falter without them, I AM fueled by his actions, and I DO need things from him.”
Amen. Hallelujah. Blessed Be.
Great post Kaya -
This is a subject that’s consumed many hours in my mind. I grew up in an abusive household as did my Mom. With every generation it seems to get better, but I really gravitate towards dominant men. My Grandma was a lot like Rais’ mom and it’s always been easy to understand – her options were limited, she had 5 kids very young, he was more than 15 years her senior when she was married at 15 – yada yada yada.
My mom had more choices, but she also married and started birthing children at 17 and her parents insisted that she stay in an abusive relationship – so her options were still limited.
Many people submit in relationships – even really bad ones – not because they don’t think they have a choice (or the ability to choose) but because they don’t think they have any other options.
In my opinion, it seems that the truer form of submission would be when someone submits even though they do have other options. In your case, you are where you are because you choose to be – that is soooo incredibly awesome for you and Scott.
~junebug
Hey long time since we’ve “talked”
I so totally get what you are saying. I enjoy being submissive. When NDG and I stated dating I just acted in the way that felt natural. He noticed and commented and we talked. I was honest and said, This is as far as my submissivness goes without some input from you. I was not being bratty just expressing my needs. I like rules and consequences but I don’t like having to be a brat to get a spanking.
And we all know I LOVE a spanking. So I was honest in what I wanted and needed. He was honest in what he wanted and needed and we are growing from there.
I will always recognize him as the Head of our relationship and will be submissive to him to a degree. Beyond that point, I need some pushing.
Fortunately, he likes to push and remind me of my place.
It works for us.
Sable
Lovely post kaya. I truely believe that a submissive or M/s relationship is harder that a “normal” relationship in our society. One is blasted from all sided to adhere to the norms, and to be what society expects out of you. But it is also your sub-group that you belong to that subjects you to its norms also. So while you are forced to follow the American cultural norms, you also are forced to follow the sub-groups you belong to norms. (such as religious groups) Following your heart and desires to live in what really is a small sub-group in our cutrual, ie. BDSM, is a rejection of all the norms you have been subjected to your entire life, both from family and friends and from the constant barrage of media and informational overload we get everyday. To be able to achieve a true breakaway from this is an achievement of no little size. Just think of the effects of coming out into the open with family and friends and society might be. Society has its ways of forcing the wayward soul back into line or punishing those who stray too far from the norm. I keep my kink hid because it would cause me to lose my job, teaching, and might even cause me, who lives in a conservative state, to lose my kids. So I stay underground no matter how much I long to live openly as a Master. Can’t do it; no, no, not now. The point of all this bullshit rambling is that those “morality police” really do harm to our sub-group. How must that person feel, being castout by the castouts? None of us are normal, by societies mores, so for us to judge is really bullshit. This is one of the reasons I tend to stay away from Fetlife discussions..I have this strong desire to tell them to shut the fuck up!
Oh well, guess I am doing it wrong still, I have been told that before on fetlife. Guess I will just have to go back to bring my slave flowers and then whipping her over the couch in private, cause ya know, that just sick!
Peace, w_professor
“However, there IS a give and take. There has to be because I am not an altruistic servant.”
I never felt like an altruistic servant either. And I often felt like I needed to try to be like everyone else because it seemed like most enslaved submissives just naturally only thought of their Dom–never themselves. They wanted a life with no choice, where with me (at the time with my ex) I just wanted to stay in his possessive grasp. Not sure about my next relationship but I did like that enslaving dynamic and that push and pull. That force. That dynamic.
“THEY chose, and committed to being a slave, and therefore, the angels have smiled upon them and they shit perfect rainbows of submission.”
Oh my dear heaven, this made me laugh so hard I spit tea all over my keyboard.
This was a great post–power to we less holy than all imperfect humans of the kink community!
And, I agree. I want to be reminded of my place. I need it, it is an essential part of me, this need to be forcefully corrected. And if the Amazingly Perfect Subs of the World don’t like it, they can bite my butt.
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