rayne’s view
In the comments on the Opinion’s post , rayne, of Insatiable Desire said this:
In a Master/slave relationship? The burden lies with the slave. A master is free to do pretty much whatever the hell he wants. Including waffle. Before, during and after training. Granted it’s probably better to be consistent and not always give in at least in the beginning while building the foundation of the slave’s training, he really doesn’t have to. It’s the master’s responsibility to train the slave in the way most pleasing to him. It is her responsibility to remain in her place.
I admit I don’t like to hear that. Because then I have to fix myself instead of pointing to Master and saying “YOU are doing it wrong.”
And who wants to see their own faults? Not me.
But we have been exactly right there. EXACTLY in that spot with me having to stop the finger pointing. Or, to have Master take my pointing little finger, turn it around, and tap it gently (or not so gently) against my breastbone.
That happens about once a month or so. 
I have said to Master, in many repeated conversations, that yes of course he has the right to do “this” however he wants to. In whatever manner pleases him. He can be a hardass or a waffler, he can ignore me or use me or.. whatever. It is not my place to dictate the details.
But. For every action, or non-action on his part, there is a reaction on my part.
How could there NOT be? How can I claim to be so in tune with him, so deeply and psychologically affected by him, and then maintain myself so strictly and stoically apart from whatever it is that he is doing?
It seems simple cause and effect. A lackluster Master gets a lackluster slave. An attentive Master gets an attentive slave. A waffling Master gets a waffling slave. A strict Master gets a well-behaved slave. I mean, isn’t the whole point that the Master *creates* the type of slave that he desires? How does that happen if I essentially ignore his input and do it my way the whole time?
If my inclination is to be a submissive and my job is to submit, and I can maintain that strict submission regardless of the input that he’s putting in? I simply do NOT see how I would be expected to react so easily and so strongly TO his input. He doesn’t want me to be doing things on my own, in any fashion. So is one expected to maintain themselves while still fostering that insane independence?
I think, maybe, if I’m understanding rayne’s comment, you take an established M/s relationship where the expectations are clear and at certain times, life interferes in some way or another. At that point, and in MY relationship, the burden falls on the slave. I know my rules, I know what’s expected of me, so if there are deliberate failings, then yeah, my fault. I fucked up.
If he excuses it, or ignores it, or worse, approves of my “fuck up”, then he is also at fault. That in no way lessens my mistake, don’t get me wrong. I think it just then becomes a dual, and equally shared, fuck up. Which, if not nipped in the bud, becomes a self-destructive pattern.
It wouldn’t be as cut and dried as me saying “Oh lookie. I made a mistake. What are YOU going to do about it?” But maybe I do think it should be HIM saying “Look. You made a mistake. What are YOU going to do about it, and what am I going to do to make sure you don’t make this same mistake tomorrow?”
But even then, that all depends on what kind of slave the Master wants. I do agree that a Master is not *obligated* to do a damn thing for his property. Nothing at all. I am not part of the crowd that feels a Master has a duty to care for and nurture his slave. But I do think his input and intention directly influences the outcome. As it should.
How can someone say that they are only influenced by the good stuff and not the bad? I’m not sure I get that. Someone will say that they respond to this type of training or that they listen and take to heart when he does or says this and they are shaped by that input.. and then not listen or take to heart when it takes a turn for the worse? How does that happen?
~cunt
(I feel like I need to add in here that I’m only taking the comment and expanding my thoughts on it. She may very well have meant everything that I’m ‘adding’ or she may not have. I was just using it as a starting point to a further thought process. I love rayne. and you should too. go read her. 
)
Uncategorized | kaya | 
Friday February 15th, 2008 9:53am
I’m not going to comment on what should or should not happen in someone elses relationship, as all of us are different, but in my relationship with Sir, it is not my responsibility to fix things. If I’ve screwed up and He doesn’t know about it, it is my responsibility to tell Him that I screwed up (because deceit is the same as a lie in His book) and then He has a choice about how He is going to deal with it.
I can’t even count how many times I’ve come back with “well I thought you would have wanted XYZ” or, “yes, I understood your directions, but you didn’t seem to mind the first 10 times I did X wrong, so ….” (I have to tell you, whenever I start a sentence with “I thought” or “You didn’t do”, it ALWAYS gets me into BIG trouble.)
It is my responsibility to do as I’m told 100% of the time and just because I don’t receive any punishment, it doesn’t excuse my poor behavior. But in our relationship, if things are going badly, it is Sir’s responsibility to fix them and mine to accept his fix. I’ve gotten the lecture about a zillion times about it not being my job to fix things, it’s not my job to worry about things (how can you not???) and if things aren’t going well between us, I need to be patient and trust that he will fix them because my fixes can only make things worse.
Maybe this is different than the way other people live, but I can say with 100% certaintly, that if I told Sir, “I decided to do XYZ because you did or didn’t do ABC and I was going to fix things…” (he also really loves it when I start a sentence with “I decided” *big smiles*) I wouldn’t be able to sit down for a week.
So, bottom line, it’s Sir’s job to fix it, period.
Have a happy Friday!
Sir’s girl
You made me laugh out loud while reading this. I can’t tell you how many times I have also started a sentence with “I thought”, “You didn’t do” or “I decided” and gotten BUSTED for it. Along with “You always” and “But last time” among other things. tee hee. That makes me giggle.
Don’t forget “You should” or “But *I* thought…” or “I try…”
*rolls eyes*
Next second you’re either getting that “aha!” look or the “mhm… care to go on?” eyebrow…
And you’re screwed. At this point, sleeping naked on the balcony, on cement floor, in -5C (uh, 23F) is looking preferable to the conversation that’s just about to begin.
Yep, yep, yep, been there…
I love it when I catch myself and say “I think I’m going to stop now”, and Sir replies “No, keep going – that’s an order.” There is absolutely no getting out of that one…
Ok that made me laugh hard. I have started with “I thought…” and “I decided…” and been nailed for it so many times. Being forced to finish the sentence (after realizing what I’ve done and what’s about to happen) is horrible, but I’m sure amusing to him. There’s really no way to fix it once I’ve said the words.
Blush
Wow, you make me think right there, you’re making me think!
I love your blog. You’ve been very helpful.
I think too much and get myself into trouble!
Though I understand Rayne’s comments, I know that I would not do well under a waffling or disinterested Master. Now, as to whether that is the ‘correct’ response from a slave, that I can not tell you. My Master does think that he has a duty to me as his slave, so I too, follow this precept.
I’ve long read your blog on LJ and have found it to be incredibly informative, erotic, and helpful. I hope you and your Master feel revived and energized soon.
Thank you! I hope the winds of change breeze through here too!
Kaya
I put it back on TSR again, there’s enough discussion on all kinds of blogs on the topic for me to feel that maybe my post was relevant enough to be discussed.
Since you’re forbidden to post on TSR, I’m guessing I’ll just have to do it for you.
Complete side note:
That painful paddle idea I had, btw, has begun to develop. I need to poke around 2nd hand stores, but I should be able to have it made soon. I’ve modified it so that it will *hurt*, but not draw blood like crazy. Interested in free presents?
I’m glad you put it back. And yup, you can comment for me..lol
I’mMaster is always open to receiving painful gifts in the mail. His eyes light up like an 8 year old on Christmas morning.Thank you!
Forbidden to post on TSR?
Oh my gods. I have to ask why. I have to.
Why???????????
lol.. not by the TSR folks!
By Master (of course).
“Because you’re a mouthy, opinionated bitch and you tend to argue and your energies are better spent elsewhere on other, more productive things.”
/Masterly quote
He’s such a booger.
Heheh.
I don’t generally comment over there for the same reason.
Well… ok… mostly cuz the place is FILLED with mouthy, opinionated folks who are never wrong and if I were to start commenting every time I want to I’d end up in countless arguments that would interfere with dinner and the taking off of his boots and dying my hair pink.
He doesn’t forbid me…
I just know it’s best to keep shushed.
Booger. Hehehehehehehehehehhe. I like that. I’m gonna call Taylor a booger later.
You know, sometimes there are days I am going to willfully NOT point out there is something worth reading on your blog to The Man. Not because of what you said Kaya, but because of the comments. Already I have managed to drop “bastard”, “always”, “anything” etc. But sheesh…”I thought….” “I decided…” My goodness if he took those away. In thinking about it though, I don’t think he minds the phrasing….I would say 9 times out of 10 I am generally on the right track. I think it is more when I contradict him that it comes into play. Perfect example: I noticed I had a scratch on my arm from the dog that was starting to look a lil red and swollen. I meantioned that I should probably put some neosporin on it. He looked at it and said, “Yeah, why don’t you go do that sunshine.” Ahem…well…I could have said “If it is alright I will do it after you blowjob when I go brush my teeth and get ready for bed.” What I actually said was “I will go do it in a bit when I get up.” Quickly I followed it with “I have to go brush my teeth after…ya know…anyway Daddy.” Sweet smile went with this as I tried again by saying “I mean, I am not contradicting I was just using my logic and wanting to do multiple things at the same time.” He agreed with the logic…we usually see eye to eye on logic….it was the WAY that I decided and did NOT ask permission instead. I would say out of everything….THAT is what I fuck up the most.
What is really sad….I have had “voice training” and have even helped train others!!!
This whole….partner romance slave amalgum is what really seems to blur the lines so much. ugh.
As for your actual post kaya……you HAVE at least figured out why you keep delving into this subject for three straight days now right??
I have NOT figured it out! Help me. Please..lol
Could you have gotten and begun to read “The Surrendered Wife”?
I ranted for weeks afterwards about that one…
Hey by the way, a bunny came to me… on the “No rights” thing. In it’s fullest, doesn’t that means that the slave doesn’t have the right to feel what her Owner doesn’t want her to feel, doesn’t have the right to respect, honesty, to be heard…
How far do people take the “no right”s thing?
When you posted the original item, it made me think of Christian Domestic Discipline, which is basically a (male)M/(female)s relationship because God said so.
Anyway, one of the websites had tips for women who wanted this, but their husbands weren’t receptive. It encouraged women to be submissive anyway–deferring to him regarding expenses, asking his permission to do stuff, trying to better yourself in ways that make him happy, and that sort of thing. Granted, its on a bit of a smaller scale, and is a bit manipulative, but the same basic principle applies. It can be expanded to established M/s relationships (of any gender combination)… the net result is pretty much the same thing you said anyway.
However, I do think that it brings up a point, that is not really applicable to your situation, and therefore (possibly) the situation you may be thinking of. In an -unestablished- M/s relationship, however, this could be disastrous. Unless you absolutely committed to submitting anyway (ala CDD) it would be very difficult to maintain. Plus, there would the problem of manipulation, and possibly topping from the bottom.
Basically, I presume this is referring to an established relationship, but I think that the responsiblities and how one handles waffling are different depending on those two very different generalized situations.
(a- I hope I’m not being redundant from people’s other posts. b- I think there’s more in my head, but I have class and things)
That sounds like the Surrendered Wife book, that I just got and am going to read.
In the original question that I had asked, I don’t know if it was a new relationship or an established one. But I do agree that the “rules change” dependent upon that fact alone. I think it is entirely disastrous in a new one, and less so, but still unhealthy in an established one.
I’m looking forward to reading that book. I *hope* to be able to glean some useful submission prompts without picking up on the manipulating, topping from the bottom aspect that everyone else points out. And if not, it’ll just be an interesting read.
I love this blog, and I love the comments on this blog. I get more to think about than all the other blogs I read combined. Thank you.
I’ve grown really weary of hearing you justify your lifestyle,
your neuroses and psychoses. At this point, I’m simply hoping
he tortures, maims, and kills you.
So much intelligence ruined with mental illness.
Redeem yourself.
Or, alternately, you could just not read here.
You wish death on someone and then say I’m the one with a mental illness? *snicker* Okay!
Kaya,
At least this one didn’t do the anonymous thing. Still, you got to wonder why Killer Queen is reading this blog. I just don’t get it, I guess.
Dave
Wanna start an office pool on who must not have gotten laid on Valentine’s Day?
Sung to the tune of The Monkees – I’m A Believer
I thought my kink was only true in dungeon tales
Meant for someone else but not for me.
My kink was out to get me
That’s the way it seemed.
Disappointment haunted all my dreams.
Then I spanked her ass, now I’m a redeemer
Not a trace of doubt in my mind.
I’m a Dom, I’m a redeemer!
I couldn’t untie her if I tried.
I thought her submission was more or less a given thing,
Seems the more I gave the more she got.
What’s the use in tyin’?
All you get is knots.
When I needed redemption, she got pain.
Then I spanked her ass, now I’m a redeemer
Not a trace of doubt in my mind.
I’m a Dom, I’m a redeemer!
I couldn’t untie her if I tried.
Oh that’s great!
*giggles*
That’s awesome.
Apparently we’ve got a case of mass hysteria on our hands because, sweetie, there are tons of people who live exactly as S and kaya. Master and I are one couple. And if you look through the comments, you’ll see plenty more.
Here’s an idea. If it offends your wittwe eyes so much, click the x and stop coming back.
From Rayne: “A master is free to do pretty much whatever the hell he wants. ” If what he wants is to look out for only himself, his wants and needs, then he is an abuser and the one called slave is the victim. If what he wants is to look out for himself, the slave and the relationship, and he can get it done, then he is a Master worthy of a slave. There are many abusers and victims using the lifestyle to find each other, it is important that we don’t confuse them with Masters and slaves.
Coming from a counseling perspective, it sounds like you see the master and slave relationship as a modeling sort of thing. The Master behaves XYZ and thus the slave will model his/her behavior appropriate to XYZ.
I think there’s definitely as aspect of modeling that comes into play with M/s. Masters already utilize the techniques of classical and operant conditioning to get slaves (or subs) to do things so it makes sense that social learning theory and modeling would come into play as well.
Are you familar with Bandura’s BoBo Doll Study? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobo_doll_experiment)
I think it could be argued that something like that happens in the training relationship.
*shrugs*
Or it’s a load of hooey and you can ignore me completely.
Oh hey… you meant this post? lol… I hadn’t even seen this one. But I’m all caught up now!
We discussed this over at my place. (Of course, you know that
) But just so I don’t appear “holier than thou” (I’m still not sure why people think that of me…):
I agree that a master’s actions directly affect his slave’s actions. I just also feel that the slave has a responsibility to herself and her owner to at least make a strong attempt not to let her submission slip because he’s letting his domination slip for whatever reason.
And what’s with all these people who read your blog just so they can tell you how much they hate everything you stand for? You get so many of them!
i really have been wanting to comment on this discussion regarding who carries the burden to fix the relationship where the Dom is waffling and the sub taking advantage? my first thought is the need to know the situation further…if the Dom is simply not putting the energy into training and stipulation of rules then i am likely to lean toward the burden lying with the Dom. However, if the sub is manipulating the situation purposely than i would lean toward the sub carrying the burden. Regardless though, even though one or the other may be “leaned toward”; i think the ultimate responsibility lay with BOTH parties to take steps to overcome these obstacles.
If a Dom is persistently letting down their discipline, not following through with established rules, etc. i would have to agree that evaluation of their role is necessary. As a newly starting submissive i cannot think of anything more confusing and traumatic than having someone in a Dom position that is incapable of control. i know that as a new sub i have pushed the limits with my Master both on purpose and not realizing numerous times just to ensure that he would push back. To me i see it very much like a parent / child relationship in the fact that children often push parent’s buttons purposefully to ensure that guidelines set forth are being enforced which allows the child to feel safe and sound.
An example in my relationship with Master recently would be the rules He created and my not following them well. He took the “bull by the horns” so to say and sat me down. He began the discussion that He felt i was not able to follow all the rules he had created adequately. He found an alternate solution and realized that these were far too many rules for me to grasp at once. He made the decision that He would select 1 or 2 per week with my input to place focus on each day. If my Master cannot see clearly when something is not working for me and help to modify it, then i would dare say we are not very compatible as either Dom/sub OR Husband/wife.
Looking at the other aspect in regards to what is stated above is the role of the sub and their responsibility in the process; it was clearly my duty as a sub to realize that my Master wants to ensure that i am more compliant with his rules. This is obviously important to Him as Master and i must ensure that i listen clearly to his suggestions and recommendations, clarify anything i do not understand, and most importantly it is now my burden to carry out the request made by my Master. If i were to consistently blow off what my Master desires and not strive toward pleasing him than i am not the right person to be sub in any relationship.
If a Dom is not capable of seeing when limits are being pushed or guidelines not followed then i would have to gather that they are not capable of being a true Dom. Or rephrased; a Dom that cannot successfully dominate over their sub, establish strict guidelines, and enforce them even if it means re-evaluating and altering based on the subs capabilities is simply an impostor to the Dom categorization. Maybe that is a bit harsh but if it is a consistent waffling then doesn’t it completely go against what a Dominate partner is altogether?
i can surely appreciate and understand fully the fact that we do not want to look at ourselves with faulting. It is my duty to submit and see when i am not doing so and correct it. But as kaya stated, “But maybe I do think it should be HIM saying “Look. You made a mistake. What are YOU going to do about it, and what am I going to do to make sure you don’t make this same mistake tomorrow?” ” …i agree that this is where the burden comes in for the Dom.
As a sub i need to feel i am kept in that submissive, structured environment by knowing my Master is on top of all situations and able to point out what i need to work on to become a better submissive to him. For me it is as simple as knowing no one is perfect and if my Master does not give me things to work on then perhaps he is wearing rose colored glasses and not putting all He can into this relationship. It is my safeguard and sanity to know Master is pushing back every time i try to push and see that he cares enough to be on top of things. That is what prevents a self destructive pattern; there is safety and affirmation in knowing i am being taught by my Master to be what He truly wants his submissive to be.
~viemoira
I’m a bored update-whore.
I come here about every … 10 minutes, hoping for a new post.
Maybe I should get myself a life?
*grins*
[...] close with more of kaya’s thoughts, as they are more coherant than mine: In the comments on the Opinion’s post , rayne, of [...]