Parenting
I’m going to weigh in on the parenting discussion because I’m as opionated as the next person.
First, as the parent of teenagers I want to debunk the theory that it gets easier to “do” bdsm as they get older. Not true. It’s neither easier nor harder, they merely present a whole new circumstance to work around the older they get. Suddenly they know exactly what those noises are, they are not satisfied with the b.s. answers you can give a small child, they’re nosier, more perceptive, more knowledgable and ask harder questions. They watch and listen and they can no longer be distracted by The Wiggles or a Disney dvd. They *might* be gone more as they develop social lives of their own but they’re never all gone at the same time and you are no longer in control of when they come home. Unexpected and unannounced is the name of the game with teenagers. It’s harder to plan when they start taking control of their own lives, not easier as parents of toddlers expect.
So keep on waitin’ and wishin’ for the magical ease of older kids. By then mine will be grown and gone and *then* it *might* be easier and then I’ll be laughing while y’all bemoan the difficulties of doing bdsm with teenagers in the house and wishing they were easy-peasy toddlers again.
Second, discussing bdsm with your teen. I’m on the fence with this one. I understand what’s being said about answering their questions with age-appropriate information and I certainly don’t disagree with that at all. I do that myself with my kids about all matters, be it sex or religion or politics, whatever. But I do not, as a rule, reveal personal information about *my* relationship or my sexual practices. If one of my kids were to come to me asking about bdsm, I think I would assist them in finding the answers without letting it be known that I practice it. I think you can be the honest, supportive parent that you should be and you can guide them to the correct answers and steer them away from the incorrect information without having to divulge information about your sex life that they really don’t need to know. Hell, I’m 37 and I still don’t want to know about my parents sex life. I know they have one, I don’t care to know the specifics.
However, I do not agree that it qualifies as child abuse to share that information about yourself. I don’t think the child will be scarred or traumatized or set on a pre-determined path toward submission. I think people who think that don’t give children enough credit for having brains of their own. And that’s sad.
Third, there’s lots-o-talk about “abandoning” your child for bdsm, because Master said so, because Master became abusive to the child or because the parent decided the kid was ‘in the way’ of mom’s kinkified future. Here’s my take on it.
People, both mothers and fathers, leave their kids for a LOT of reasons. I fail to see why some reasons are glorified while others are raked over the coals. A young mom with no money who gives her baby up for adoption because she recognizes that she cannot provide as the child deserves is glorified. She’s selfless, it’s done for the ‘right’ reasons, blah blah blah. Another woman involved in bdsm who sees herself and her new found interests as being harmful to her child and gives her child up for the exact same reasons (she recognizes that she cannot provide as the child deserves ) is raked over the coals. She’s selfish, stupid.
It’s not only not fair to rake someone over the coals in that manner, it’s just not *right*. The person who selfishly chooses to keep that child in a situation that is not healthy is the one to be condemned. Not the one who makes what is probably the very hardest and most selfless decision in their life, to place the kid out of harms way when that means placing them with someone other than you.
I had a bff throughout high school. It was her lifelong dream to be a wife and a mother. She took child care classes, she had a babysitting business. She lived and breathed and planned and fantasized about motherhood. She got married after graduation, she had a baby. The most loved and doted-upon, chubby, blonde baby boy you’ve ever seen. 4 years later, her life changed. Her husband had an affair, she filed for divorce, her world fell apart. She started hanging out in bars, sleeping around, discovering a side of life she had never seen. There was a custody battle. More than likely, she’d have won. Back then the courts still tended to side with the mothers and it was the father who’d been unfaithful. She knew she’d win. She chose to back out of the custody battle and sign the kid over to his father. Why? Because she knew she was involved in a lifestyle that was not stable enough for her son. She knew she wasn’t ready to quit it. She loved him enough to make the choice that was in his best interest, not in hers.
She put up with the same sort of insults and judgement from ignorant, narrow-minded, holier-than-thou mothers who think the sun rises and sets on their precious children.
Here’s what else I think. I suspect that some of the disagreements surrounding this have a lot to do with the age of the parent, as well as the age(s) of the child(ren). Those of us who are a little older, and who are in the homestretch of parenting, can far easier visualize life after kids. I don’t think parents of toddlers can do that with as much clarity, or with the same brutal honesty that we can. Toddlers consume you. Teenagers leave you time to contemplate.
What we know, what we understand, is that active parenting is a short-time affair. It doesn’t seem like it when your kids are 3 or 4 or even 9 or 10. You see endless years of always taking care of them. Your kids get up to 15, 16, 17 years old and adulthood is in the blink of an eye. You weigh 18 years of parenting against 60 years of marriage – or 40 or 50 years of lonliness should you have sacrificed your relationship for the sake of being the more self-righteous parent. I think parents of older kids have a different perspective when talk turns to “abandoning” your child for your mate. Having to choose one or the other. Walk a mile in their shoes before spouting off about their motives or intelligence.
Ideally, a parent chooses a mate that is healthy and loving and provides well for their child. Preferably in a relationship where having to issue threats and ultimatums like “be good to my kids or else!” don’t ever have to be uttered. Those kinds of threats seem counterproductive in my mind.
I understand momma-bears, I’m one too. I love my kids more than I can put into words. But I’m also a good wife, and I do not put my kids before my husband. Someday the kids WILL grow up and move out and I’ll have lots more years of marriage left. If it’s considered selfish or stupid to place my relationship with my husband as a priority, then I’m selfish and stupid.
I’m okay with that.
~cunt
Uncategorized | kaya | 
Saturday August 2nd, 2008 2:30pm
I really like the fact that we have the same opinion on this. :)
Parenting,
Kaya, a very sensible post, my view exactly.
I love it when you aree with me. Chuckles.
Warm hugs,
Paul.
Very good post and i tend to agree with you.
I am the single parent of teenagers (one 15 and one nearly 19)
Would i choose loneliness over my kids…. hell no.
Would i have said the same thing if they were 2 and going on 6… NO
Age does make a difference. I can see the light at the end of the tunnel here.. and its NOT a train… it’s the life i was born to live… without unexpected interruptions of children walking in from going “hang at the mall”
My children are long grown and gone. I have the benefit of the “looking back at it” parenting perspective. I also teach people who are generally 11 and 12 years old — just at the verge of full-on adolescence. So, I routinely deal with about 40-50 youngsters in that age range, and all their various and assorted parental types. I don’t have all the answers, but I do have some ideas and observations:
Humans are sexual creatures.
Children are simply young humans, and are therefore, young, sexual creatures.
It is not ever our job, as parents, to raise children. It is our goal to raise adults — hopefull good ones.
Our culture keeps our kids steeped in the stew of sexual inuendo; continually trumpeting the message that sex is sordid, seamy, nasty, and unbelievably hot. No wonder they are confused about where they stand when it comes to making decisions about their own sexuality.
Children deserve adults (especially parental adults) who will be straightforward and honest with them when they ask questions about life (and sex is part of life).
Children deserve adults who have enough wisdom and judgement to determine what is appropriate to share in answering their questions — and which information is unnecessary, or inappropriate.
It is possible to truthfully answer nearly every question a curious young person might ask without sharing intimate details of one’s own sexual practice.
In a society which gives the impression that nothing at all is private, it is a powerful thing when a trusted adult MODELS the choice to say, “that is a private matter, and I won’t share those details with you.”
In the end, it is for each of us to honor our children with respectful dialog about the things they wonder about as they grow. That means that we ought to talk to them, according to their ability to understand, about anything they ask us about: religion, politics, sex, science, death, war… If we don’t talk to them, we really ought to not be surprised when they find someone who WILL.
swan
Our daughter is 15, Master and I have talked about having another child, but then we really think about how Aggi is almost out of the house, we don’t want to start over. Sometimes I think that’s selfish, but the openness of not having her in the house, appeals to us. I love my child dearly though, so hopefully being a little selfish isn’t bad of me, is it?
When Master and His ex were going through a custody battle, Aggi’s mom didn’t want to do a pysch eval, so she gave custody to Master. I’m thankful that in the end she gave Master custody, because it’s worked out for the best.
As for sharing bdsm with our daughter, that’s always been a tough issue, but we don’t expose her to it. We do talk to her about teenagers her age having sex, we want her to come to us with anything. If she were to ask about bdsm I too think I would perhaps help her get the knowledge that she’s looking for.
Ooppss, I rambled.
I have a toddler and an infant. I’m in the early, total dependant care part of parenting and it’s for that reason that I could not, would not and will not put Daddy ahead of the kids. They are simply too young and need too much from me. I feel like I started this heated, parental debate and that I’m being raked over the coals for my beliefs because it’s not the “correct” slave attitude to have. So what? I don’t think of myself as a holier than thou parent, I simply stated my point of view that BDSM is not worth it (to me) to give up my kids over. It’s just not. Guess the fact that I could walk away so easily will be viewed by some that I’m “not really a slave” and I don’t care. Those of us that blog do so to share our opinions and such and that’s exactly what I did and will continue to do regardless if it angers a few people.
Rose
*or 40 or 50 years of lonliness should you have sacrificed your relationship for the sake of being the more self-righteous parent*
i feel sorry for people that end up with this. i am an older mom. i am 38 with children 6, 5, and 3. Having said that, my children are a priority, but i know that they will grow up and move away. i don’t know if the age of one’s children is so much of a factor in realization, or if it is more life experience. i think much more differently now than i did at 27 (which is usually the age of a mother to a 6 year old), so i handle things differently than a twenty something would (nothing wrong with being twenty something, it’s just a different life stage…sometimes i wish i could be that age again LOL).
i think it is very important to continually water and nurture a marriage rather than ignoring it and letting it wilt and eventually die. my Sir is the father of my children, and as much as i love having children with Him, that was not the reason we got married. We married because we share a love, and because that love exists my children exist. We try (for lack of a better word b/c we really don’t have to try) to keep that spark alive.
My dad said to me – often – that life priorities went like this: 1. God. 2. Spouse. 3. Children. 4. Job. 5. Everything else.
He forgot a few times and got # 5 in front of # 1, but I think he was right about the order. And if we can do # 1 and # 2 correctly, then # 3 will at least have something to respect, even if they are # 3 and not # 1.
That all being said, (young) children have the problem of not being able to care for themselves emotionally or physically in the same way a teenager can and should. So if there is an alternative situation for the child, that’s fine. But if there’s not, there’s not. Not all parents of children are divorced, and not all parents of children have an ex- who wants anything to do with the children they fathered/mothered. It’s situational, gray and often requires at least one therapist. In some cases it might be okay for a parent/mother to agree that her children should live with Dad or Grandma, but in other cases it’s a *bad* option and sacrifice may be required – even painful sacrifice.
That being said, no Master/Dom/Top would ever be MY lived-with Master/Dom/Top who did not accept, respect and parent my daughter. I wouldn’t ever accept him as such without that prior level of relationship. But I’m not everybody and I haven’t had the same life situations others have experienced. And I’ve been very lucky so far in having the ability to make decisions independent of real financial and familial pressures. Also I have Chris and I’m very lucky about that.
sparkle
i do not share my bdsm lifestyle choices with my kids. They are 13, 17 and 20. i am not ashamed of my lifestyle, i just don’t think that my kids need to know all of my intimate details of my life.
i love my Master, and i am committed to my lifestyle, but my kids will always come first – well, at least until they are out of the house. Luckily, Master agrees.
Oops. That was me.
Kaya,
There are some issues for which there is one right answer, but this issue (giving up or keeping a child) isn’t one of them. I can’t imagine a harder choice for a parent to make than whether or not to give up a child. For someone else to bash that person for whatever reason seems unconsciounable. Trust me, the parent is already beating themselves up, no matter what the choice they have made. What they need from the people around them is the support to live with the choice that has been made.
As for talking with your kids about your own BDSM pracitces, the only time I can see that being something to do is if they come to you asking why you do it (i.e. they already know) I hope no one actually has to have THAT conversation.
Dave
just out of curiosity, and this is NOT meant to pick a fight, but because (as a non parent (and hoping to be one one day)) i would have no idea how to handle the following scenario..
I go with what you said about your sex life being none of your children’s business, and that if they came to you with questions about BDSM you’d give them the info without discussing that it is also part of your sex life. No problem with all that, I’d agree with it – i don’t even want to know if my parents are still having sex, its absolutely none of my business!
However, accidents, with the best will in the world, will happen, so how do you – actually, how does *anyone* handle it when their child/children inadvertently get a bit more than you bargained for? e.g. opens the bedroom door, to view you n your partner doing something sexual, whatever that sexual is – from the more extreme parts of BDSM to vanilla sex…?
I do know it depends on the age and understanding and maturity of the child, and that younger ones are probably more easily placated with “this is mommy and daddy’s playtime and its private” but what about older ones, who may actually have partially understood what they saw?
anyone else wanna answer this.. go for it!
keth
xx
i concur with your post kaya. Mistress and i approach O/our children and grandchildren as a unified unit. W/we put their needs before O/our own but with common sense. W/we are open about sex with O/our children but dont confide in them about O/ours. O/our grown kids know to call before coming over.O/our teenager is gone one weekend a month at the local “rocky horror picture” show while O/our grade school aged child is away at the same time. W/we reserve that weekend for quality M/s time. W/we have a lock on O/our bedroom door when they are home and they know not to knock unless its of vital importance. W/we also bought them ipods they listen to alot which helps drown out alot of things :)
I have been on both sides of the coin on this one. In the early years of my kids lives I gave them up due to my abusive marriage that I couldn’t seem to get out of. I was raked across the coils for what I did. People just couldn’t see why? So years later I finally was able to get out. I got MY life together and then I got my kids back. We are doing wonderfully and they understand as to why I did what I did. I also was never out of their lives the entire time they were not with me. Makes a big difference there.
I agree with you kaya on the aspects of this issue. It’s a difficult discussion.
I completely agree with the notion of putting one’s spouse first. As you said, the marriage is meant to be a forever relationship. The relationship you have with your children is supposed to change. However, to use your example, I think there’s an enormous difference between giving up a child for adoption because you aren’t financially capable and abandoning a child because you have decided you enjoy partying more than you enjoy being responsible. The first decision is selfless, the second is selfish.
I don’t think it’s acceptable to change your mind about the responsibility of parenting. If you make that choice you should be doing everything in your power to see it through to completion. There are often unforeseen circumstances that change things. I would never judge a mother who couldn’t care for her children because she became ill, for example. But that, again, is not a CHOICE. I also completely understand the situation described by the poster above, leaving an abusive situation so she could get her children out from a position of safety.
But the notion of abandoning children because of BDSM just made me shake my head. What?? You don’t get to give up a child because you’ve found a new “interest” as you described it. What kind of nonsense is that? Recently my husband and I took a sailing course (putting each other first, ahead of children, to pursue our own interests) and to me that makes sense. I give him special time and attention in my life because he’s my priority. But suppose he figured we could get rid of the kid because then we could afford a sailboat? Hah, are you kidding me? Kids aren’t hobbies and you don’t get to toss them out when something else because more interesting. What a bunch of nonsense.
Seriously kaya, your blog is so interesting, but sometimes I honestly think you post stuff just to be inflammatory and get people fired up. You can’t really believe yourself on this one. LOL.
Thank you for writing this response!!!
I have been thinking about this issue and all of these responses, but haven’t been able to articulate a response as clearly as this!
I’ve had to do alot of soul searching ever since I first saw this issue come up. I am one of the subs who says yes, I would put my son first if my Master turned out to be abusing him. One of the biggest reasons for this is that I grew up with an extreme level of abuse, from numerous sources. I know from reading your blog that you did, too. I have made significant strides to ensure that my past did not control my present, nor my future. However, I cannot fathom finding out that my Master was sexually molesting/otherwise abusing my child, and staying with Him. I know it would never happen, but if it did – I would feel so deeply disgusted and angry that I could never forgive.
In the case of a teenager being sent away…I can’t imagine being ok with it. But I also have a child who has been diagnosed with Oppositional Defiance Disorder. I have to face the reality that his behavior may very well disintegrate as he gets older. He is almost five years old now. I guess you could say I bristle slightly every time I’ve seen people refer to toddlers as “easy”. Granted, my son isn’t like the vast majority. I can honestly say that I break down in tears at least twice per day. He consumes me to the point that I don’t know who I am anymore. Along with ODD, doctors have said he has some hearing loss, ADHD, and displays signs of Asperger’s (a milder form of autism). I haven’t blogged about these things, because I don’t want myself or my son to be judged for them.
Today alone, I dealt with no less than four screaming conniptions that literally brought managers of the grocery store we were in running. Why? Because he didn’t get every toy he saw. He screamed, threw things out of the cart and at me. Clawed me.
On top of this, I am another wife whose husband cheated on her and left her for another woman. My soon to be ex-husband now lives with his girlfriend. He lives 10 minutes away, and has not seen his son in over a month. He doesn’t care.
So I guess what I’m trying to say is that right now, the only thing in my life that I can see IS my son, and the D/s relationship is suffering because of it. I do have a wonderful Master now, and we plan to marry. But raising this little boy has never been easy, and never will be. So everyone with the issues of would/should/could…I’m glad the biggest problem is who or what comes first. I wish I could think clearly enough to even know anymore. Right now, my son comes first, because I don’t have a choice. I just wish there was a handbook called, “How to have a D/s relationship and deal with special needs children.”
I’ve had a few people tell me my situation was simple because I “only have one child.” Heh. I love him dearly, but it will never be simple. Honestly, I can’t imagine what the teenage years will bring. I’m afraid to know.
At this point, I hope by the time my son is the age of your children, I can be half as certain of my beliefs/choices. There is alot of strength in knowing where everything stands. :)
What’s interesting to me is this idea that you have to choose your children OR your partner. That’s a false dichotomy; you CAN have both. It may not necessarily be easy, but it is possible.
That being said, there are situations where you should choose one or the other – e.g. when your partner is abusing you. In a case like that, you need to do what is safest for you, and, since your children are children and can’t necessarily protect themselves, as the parent it falls to you to consider their safety and needs as well. (And yes, I realize that’s horrifyingly simplified.)
But I think that, with sufficient thought, consideration, and uh-oh, here’s that word, maturity, you can have a good relationship with your partner, even involving BDSM or whatever else you want to get involved in, as well as have children. They are not mutually exclusive.
We are a blended family, a widowed mom with one son and a single dad with one son. They are both grown now (26 and 21) I’m 62 and J is 55. We’ve been together about 12 years, married for 9. That defines us demographically. I told her prior to our starting a relationship that went beyond BDSM play time, that nothing or no one came before my son. She understood it and agreed with me. We finished raising our sons (if in fact “finished raising” is ever actually accomplished)but in either case, they are young men with careers, relationships, problems and solutions, all those things that come with having a life. Are they equipped to handle it all? It appears so and I fervently hope so. Would I change my attitude about relative places? Nope, I wouldn’t. I believe that the single most important thing we’ll ever do is to rear child with the strengths and values for them to succeed and for them to know of absolute, unwavering love.
What we know, what we understand, is that active parenting is a short-time affair.
Unless one is
stupidblessed like me. By the time I am done, I will have been an active parent – active meaning kids under 18 still living at home – for about 40 years. It’s an even toss if my marriage will last that long. (Referring to health/old age rather than divorce and such)Ouch. Man, putting it all in numbers makes me feel so old. And makes it seem so damn long.
Having said that, I’ll just add one more thing. The age of your kids really does make a difference. You know I’m of the group that wouldn’t give up my kids for any reason, ever, but frankly, when all I had were teenagers it was way easier to put others (Himself or even myself) ahead of them. Now, nothing comes before the Beastie – not myself, not even Himself. And because babies are so all consuming, sometimes I struggle with even putting Him before me.
Hmm, and maybe I should stop before I get on a biscuit and write a whole damn post. Or go do it in my own corner :-D
:-*
You put your husband before your children, even when they were young? When they were babies?
Up until this point I have not judged you or thought ill of you, but now I can honestly say that you are sick and have a problem.
I will no longer be reading your blog.
*snort*
One less judgmental bitch reading my blog? However will I carry on? Tito, pass the tissue.
twwwweeeeeeetttt!!!!
UNNECESSARY ROUGHNESS.
ON THE BENCH WITH YOU!!!
Boy, nothing gets people fired up like a little talk of children, or in particular of the entire world *gasp* not revolving around said children.
That said, I would rather see a child given to a better situation than kept in a situation where s/he does not receive the best possible care – for whatever reason. I fully support people living with their consequences – “taking their lumps” as it were – but when the consequence is another living being? Things get complicated there.
Also, this is one of the many reasons why I have decided not to procreate. I wish more women had this sense of foresight, but the ones who don’t… well, my “druther” statement above still applies.
On another note, my mother and I are both into BDSM – however, she didn’t really discover the true scope of her kink until I was well out of the house, and now? I’m very cool with it – I think it’s awesome, in fact. Sure, we don’t discuss gory details, but we talk about generalities, share good websites or eBay sellers, and go shopping for fetish wear together. I’ve always been her fashion consultant – why not for fetish wear too? :D
I say this as an example of what can be OK as far as kids and BDSM go. Sure, I’m HER kid, but I’m not A kid anymore, and that’s the big difference. My knowing about her involvement in the scene was not forced on me as it would be with a small child who has no control over that kind of thing. When I was a little kid, my parents’ sexual life was kept behind closed doors and not displayed in front of me, as it should be no matter how vanilla or kinky the parents are. I think parents should be honest about “the birds and the bees,” but that doesn’t mean they have to be forthcoming about THEIR birds and bees.
Heh, this comment is longer than I intended it to be, but hey, it seems like everyone’s gotta chime in, and I’m no exception! :)
Kaya ,
I so tried to stay out of this discussion but I have a very different opinion concerning one part. Mostly I agree with everything except this :
People, both mothers and fathers, leave their kids for a LOT of reasons. I fail to see why some reasons are glorified while others are raked over the coals. A young mom with no money who gives her baby up for adoption because she recognizes that she cannot provide as the child deserves is glorified. She’s selfless, it’s done for the ‘right’ reasons, blah blah blah. Another woman involved in bdsm who sees herself and her new found interests as being harmful to her child and gives her child up for the exact same reasons (she recognizes that she cannot provide as the child deserves ) is raked over the coals. She’s selfish, stupid.
A young mother to be and my idea of a young mother is a teen mom stuck with no one at her back. Yes, should she decide to give that child up for adoption based souly on it being better for the child is selfless. Where as you seem to think the mother giving up her child to live a later decided life style should be seen in the same light. I think there is a HUGE difference. While I would never rake anyone over the coals for making a life choice , please don’t expect me to see the later mention action as a selfless act. It is selfish by all means as I see it. At the very least it is selfish amoung other things. She/he put their own wants before that of their child. There are ramifications to every decision concerning children. Consider for one moment the child of each above decision and ask them how they would feel knowing all the circumstances. Which one would see their parent as selfish. Ask them at any age from young teen to adult and I doubt the answer would change much.
ALL Of us parents give up things daily that would make life more enjoyable for us and we do it for the kids. It takes alot of stamina to raise a child from start to finish. None of us really know exactly what we are getting into until it is too late. I don’t care how many books one reads or classes one takes. You don’t fully understand until a friend calls late one night out on the town having a blast saying “I wish you were here” and you find yourself crib side with a screaming baby waiting on a bottle and carrying a full diaper of something that smells toxic.
How nice at that time to decide ya’d rather be tied up having orgasms by the dozen without concern of having a child within ear shot or sight of the events and have that called an selfless thing. Sorry , it is selfish. I Have to ask what would you call the parent that has a desire to live an alternate lifestyle that is not of the normal and puts that desire off until the child is grown to do it , stupid ? Are we the selfish ones ? You can’t have your cake and eat it too, at the very least the parent who gives up the child for her/his own wants and desires is selfish. It is too late at that time in life to make a change to your own life and not have serious ramifications to that childs.
Additionally anyone out there who thinks the whole parenting thing ends when the kid turns 18 , are you ever in for a rude awakening. The legal ins and outs and the financial responcibilty ends there. The parenting deal though is life long. You don’t wake up magically on the childs 18 birthday and feel as if this huge weight has been lifted off your shoulders. If anything it gets worse as you can no long assure they make the right decisions in life. All you can do is advise. ha and then 9 times out of ten they will do just the opposite just because YOU advised it. They also do not wake up on their 18th birthday and magically start acting like an adult. They still do stupid things, still need your help. ( now more than ever with the way the economy is) Still need your love and assurance that you will be there when they need you. That never ends.
Now you can call me an ignorant, narrow-minded, holier-than-thou mother who thinks the sun rises and sets on my precious children
But you would be dead wrong. I am one tough cookie for getting though all I have as a parent and not jerking my responsibility off on anyone else including myself just because I fucking could.
So in short any of you who are looking forward to the end of the parenting deal .. that is not a light at the end of the tunnel but a full steam ahead train. You don’t stop caring or feeling all that parenting crap. It just takes on a whole new direction. A back seat to to speak where you have no more say. You just get to watch them make more mistakes. Ones you hope they learn from the first time they make them. Oh and to anyone that gives up their kids for what ever reason just shut the fuck up. You no longer have a say about parenting. In my book , you have no idea what it takes to see it through.
Ok ok, for you I’ll be serious. Only because I love you. ;-)
A young mother to be and my idea of a young mother is a teen mom stuck with no one at her back. Yes, should she decide to give that child up for adoption based souly on it being better for the child is selfless.
They’re both selfish. BDSM mom and teen mom. Both reasons are selfish. Young, teenage girls, young broke women with 3 babies and no job (like I was), can still find a way to raise those kids *if they want to*. Sure, it’s hard and it sucks and all those yucky things – but it can be done. Where there’s a will there’s a way. There are agencies and shelters and food stamps and free healthcare and WIC, all that help just sitting there waiting for that young mom to come ask for it. Waiting to help her support that baby.
If she chooses NOT to use those resources and chooses instead to give the baby up, it’s because she doesn’t want to be strapped down into a welfare life with a crying baby on her curvy, 19 yr old hip. Other young moms do it every day. So please tell me why she is LESS selfish, why that qualifies her as selfLESS – when in comparison to every other teenager who kept their child – she took the easy way out?
It doesn’t. It’s a selfish, self-absorbed decision. “I don’t want the responsibility of this child so I’m going to give it to someone who does.”
The base reason that any mother gives her child away is the same one. “I can’t take care of this child.” It doesn’t *matter* what the minute details are. It just doesn’t. A woman who has enough damn sense to know she’s not caring for that child as she should and makes the correct, moral decision to give that child to someone who will is doing the right thing. Regardless of whether it’s finances, abuse, bdsm, drugs, whatever. What’s important and what’s admirable is in recognizing and admitting that she can’t do it and in choosing not to keep that kid in a situation it shouldn’t be in for fear of being labelled “selfish”.
There are ramifications to every decision concerning children. Consider for one moment the child of each above decision and ask them how they would feel knowing all the circumstances. Which one would see their parent as selfish. Ask them at any age from young teen to adult and I doubt the answer would change much.
Ask any child who grew up and was trapped in an abusive situation which was the more selfish decision; ‘Mom kept me and didn’t/wouldn’t/couldn’t protect me so I was abused for years’ or ‘Mom gave me to my aunt because she knew she couldn’t take care of me properly’.
Or, if you’d prefer to stay with the bdsm scenario, ‘My mother had an addiction to bdsm/porn/being beaten and she ignored and neglected me for most of my life’ or ‘My mother had an addiction and gave me up for adoption so I was assured a better home than she knew she could provide’.
ALL Of us parents give up things daily that would make life more enjoyable for us and we do it for the kids. It takes alot of stamina to raise a child from start to finish.
Yes we do and yes it does. We also make decisions that the kids don’t like because we know more than they do or because we, as adults, think it’s the best choice. My kids hated me going to work and leaving them with a sitter but it had to be done, regardless of how their little feelings were hurt everytime I dragged them out of bed at 5am, no matter how much they sat at the sitter’s window and cried as I left the driveway. I had to do certain things and no amount of them hating it changed that.
None of us really know exactly what we are getting into until it is too late. I don’t care how many books one reads or classes one takes. You don’t fully understand until a friend calls late one night out on the town having a blast saying “I wish you were here” and you find yourself crib side with a screaming baby waiting on a bottle and carrying a full diaper of something that smells toxic.
Exactly. Exactly my point. And if Little Susie Sunshine finds out that she cannot handle, *for whatever reason*, that which she didn’t understand when she got knocked up, why the propensity to harshly judge her for acknowledging that and taking the steps that she feels are BEST for her and her child to remedy it? Why the insistence that she’s “less than” because she let someone more qualified/prepared/knowledgable raise the child that she cannot?
How nice at that time to decide ya’d rather be tied up having orgasms by the dozen without concern of having a child within ear shot or sight of the events and have that called an selfless thing. Sorry , it is selfish.
What would be selfish is having the child in earshot or in sight and *doing it anyway*. At least, at the very least, if one is so consumed and so unable to wait until empty nest hits, get the child away. Give the kid a chance rather than selfishly persuing those interests regardless of the effect it would have on the kid. Parents do that ALL THE TIME. You read enough bdsm blogs and message boards, you come across parents who think it’s perfectly okay to carry on about their bdsm business right there with little johnny sitting on the couch, observing and getting totally and completely fucked in the head. THAT’S selfish. That parent isn’t going to choose NOT to practice bdsm. For whatever reason, whatever the circumstances, the selfish decision to “play” has overruled. Therefore, make the SELFLESS decision to let granny raise little johnny.
I Have to ask what would you call the parent that has a desire to live an alternate lifestyle that is not of the normal and puts that desire off until the child is grown to do it , stupid ? Are we the selfish ones ?
No. Not selfish. But, maybe I might say … foolish? At the risk of really making you angry and you know I never intend that, what I’m saying is that the kids do NOT need to be the A-number-one priority. That parents, me, you, all of us, CAN acknowledge and attend to our needs as people, too. Kids who mistakenly think the universe revolves around them have a rude awakening come adulthood. There is no reason why they can’t be introduced to “gee, mom’s a person with interests of her own?!?!” way before the magical age of 18.
Ideally, parents balance it out. Mom and Dad have their “thing” that doesn’t fuck up little johnny’s life, while little johnny sees Mom and Dad as human beings with interest that aren’t centered on him.
But life is way too short to completely shelve my own interests until they’re grown and gone. And, according to you, they *never* grow up and leave anyway so when, exactly, would it be okay to live a little yourself? Never? Oh hell no. I AM too selfish for that. You know that!
Additionally anyone out there who thinks the whole parenting thing ends when the kid turns 18 , are you ever in for a rude awakening. The legal ins and outs and the financial responcibilty ends there.
But that’s all that we kinksters need, see. It’s not about thinking that you’re “done” as a parent or that you cease caring or cease helping your adult child. It IS no longer being financially or legally responsible. It’s weekends away because you are no longer financially or legally responsible. It’s being able to be honest about who you are in your home without fear of DCFS yanking your kids off to foster care because you are no longer financially or legally responsible. It’s being able to do what it is that we do and if little johnny doesn’t like the noises in the bedroom, he can get his own little quiet apartment because, oh, you guessed it, I am no longer financially or legally responsible. That’s the magic.
Now you can call me an ignorant, narrow-minded, holier-than-thou mother who thinks the sun rises and sets on my precious children
But you would be dead wrong. I am one tough cookie for getting though all I have as a parent and not jerking my responsibility off on anyone else including myself just because I fucking could.
I would never call you those things. Not unless you call me a stupid, selfish bitch for making the parenting decisions that I’ve made. If you do, well then all bets are off and I guess we could go round with the name calling. I think you are better at it than I am, but I’ll give it a good shot!
But let me ask you something in complete and utter seriousness. Where are YOU in your life. What do you do just for baby? Do you make yourself, your marriage, your happiness just as much of a priority as your precious children? What do you want for you, when the kids have lives of their own and children of their own and your house creaks in the middle of a long, empty night – is it so terrible to keep baby some happiness, along WITH giving your kids what they need?
And I can tell you this. You give your kids WAY more than what they need. You know you do. You go far above and beyond the call of motherly duty. And what I hope, sincerely and purely because I love you to pieces, is that you keep some of YOU, not mom-you, but you-you, because if you don’t? Nobody else will.
Therefore, make the SELFLESS decision to let granny raise little johnny.
wow…just…wow. when did it become selfless to make granny responsible for that which YOU created? i will never understand that. Why should grandparents have to start all over with the kid-raising thing just because their own kid or grandkid sucks at parenting? that isn’t selfless at all…it’s totally selfish. To expect an aging adult to take on the role of a parent is just wrong. I hope you never have to realize that role yourself. it sucks for the kid and for the ones who get ‘stuck’ raisng said kid, no matter how much the adults really love that child.
And you completely missed the point. Go you.
No, I really didn’t miss the point. I agree with most of what you have said, both in the original ‘parenting’ post and in your reply to your friend. Maybe I was just picking at words, but that example seemed to represent the antithesis of ‘selflessness’. Sorry – it just really bugged me.
Contrary to popular belief not all kids grow up and leave home. And yes even 27 year old off spring can cramp your style ;)
A mother who genuinely sees giving up her parental rights as being in the child’s best interest is not the one that worries me.
The mum that spends all her day sat naked at a computer because she wants to be a slave to some guy she never met and never will while her kids make do with breakfast cereals instead of proper food or go to school dirty and unkempt, she bothers me. The mothers who get so caught up in a fantasy idea of what their slave life will be like that they neglect or abandon or simply walk out on their kids and or husbands in the pursuit of subspace they bother me.
Giving birth bestows on the mother huge responsibilities, I really admire women like kaya who have thought things through and make it work for the kids and her master and herself with out falling into the “but I deserve to lead my own life” trap.
Someone, and I forget who, once said “Our children are the messages we send into the future!”
That’s a really good quote. I wish more parents (none here – no personal digs included!) would read this quote and seriously think about what it means! We need more positive messages for the future.
Kaya,
I don’t usually comment more than once to a post, but this time I have another thing to say. I want to address this comment to all those readers who are thinking, “But the child HAS to come first.”
There are two reasons why the child must absolutely NOT be the first in a family. The first reason is simply that such an attitude teaches the child that she is the most important person in the world. This is a recipe for raising spoiled brats and delinquents. The simple fact is that no one is most important to everyone. The sooner a child learns that the thoughts, needs and cares of others come before it, the better.
The second reason is even more powerful. It’s in the child’s best interests to have her parents put the other parent before the child. Simply put, children raised in two parent families are better off by every measure than children raised in one parent families. Don’t get me wrong, there are wonderful single parents who do a smashing job in a gruelling, thankless task. BUT, all the statistics show that every measure of child welfare averages higher for two parent kids than for one parent kids.
This means that a healthy marriage/relationship is a vital part of raising kids. There’s lots of reasons why this is so: better income ability, spelling each other off in the hard parts, the ability to have a parent always present, twice as much love poured into the child, the ability to show the child what it’s like to care for someone else. It’s just so much easier to raise a child if your marriage is healthy that when it’s not. I know that some marriages can’t be salvaged for any number of reasons, but that’s not a reason to give up on trying.
AND, a healthy marriage has a healthy sex life. That means that the couple engage in the sex that they find healthy and fulfilling for them. So yes, it the mother and father are into BDSM, it’s actually GOOD for the kids if they find some way to enjoy that sex life (away from little eyes and ears of course). That’s why vanilla couples hire sitters and go on dates. There’s nothing wrong with a master and slave hiring a sitter to do the same thing (even if their date would shock the sitter ;) ).
And before anyone jumps on me for what I haven’t actually said, I in no way intend to say that abusive psouses should be allowed to inflict that evil on anyone, especially children. Mom being terrified all the time and sporting regular black eyes doesn’t do anything good for the kids. Mom and dad coming home exhausted and smiling does. :)
Dave
Kaya,
I have got to say I am confused, and as a long time reader of your blog I am disheartened. To place a mother or father that would give up their children in order to partake in an alternative lifestyle, in the same catagory as a young single mother or father who has no real hope of providing for a child and chooses to give them up is ridiculous. Giving a child up only for the sake of a more pleasurable sex life is just plain old selfish.
Children are not toys or hobbies they are responsibilites. They are our future and our hope. Making a spouse a priority is biblicaly and emotionally the correct thing to do, but having children complicates that matter. Bibically your spouse should take priority in life and death situations. Picture a sinking boat and only two spots left on the life boat, bibically you are bound to take your spouse and leave your child behind to drown.
All other matters are a differnet story all together as placing one before the other all the time, everytime, lead to disaster.
Sharing the top spot is the only way for everybody in the household to be happy. Kids are at grandma’s, mom and dad get freaky. Kids are at home, mom and dad have to play quietly after the kids are asleep.
Giving up your kids so you can get freaky everynight would simply be wrong. Always remember you can get a new spouse, you can’t get new children.
HEE HEE,
Kaya you’re a dingbat and you’re obviously bored and spoiling for a fight. You’ve shaken up these good people and you deserve to be punished for it. You know damn well that you put your own kids first sometimes when it’s necessary and you do it for their greater wellness. I also know that you and any other intelligent person can find that necessary balance to maintain healthy relationships with their partner AND their children for the most part. It’s a balancing act and it is not an either/or kind of thing. Now quit being such a boob and post some naked pictures of yourself. :D
Thank you for this post Kaya! It really hit me on many levels- balancing being a woman and being a mother is something that i am still working through with children 12 and 8. i whole-heartedly agree that parents NEED to realize that parenting is something that will not consume your time in the same manor for the rest of your life. While, in some ways, you are always a parent- there comes a time that your children become adults and it is time to live your own life. i hear stories of women who consume their lives as a mom and nothing more and when their children grow up and leave the home they are left in a world of depression and obsessed with their “empty-nest” syndrome. i vow to NEVER allow this to be me- that is my choice to be more than simply the mom.
i do find the balance of privacy verses honesty and not being alouf or niave to the fact that kids are not ignorant to their surroundings. Obviously involving children in the conversations of the ongoings of your sexual / private life is not a good idea but at the same time kids are going to be curious and ask questions. i think you hit the nail on the head with ” I think you can be the honest, supportive parent that you should be and you can guide them to the correct answers and steer them away from the incorrect information without having to divulge information about your sex life that they really don’t need to know.” *applause!!!- hell standing ovation!*
As far as parents who are selfless enough to give up their children up because they know they cannot provide the life / environment that the children need- this is NOTHING but SELFLESS! It takes much more courage to see that you cannot provide a healthy environment for your child and find options for them to be better off then it does to ignore the situation and allow the child to grow up neglected. People that judge others for doing the right thing are nothing but ignorant.
~viemoira
Kaya,
First excuse me for the storms took me off line till this morning.
Secondly , I was not referring to your relationship with your daughter who WANTS to be at grannys, the granny who WANTS her there, or to you whose lifestyle is easier cause she is there. That is no doubt a win win win situation. You are still very much in her life and I have in the past as I do now say you are a good parent. If you did take my comments as referring to that I am sorry. That was not my intent.
I was referring to your comparison of the young mother who gives her child up completely thinking about the child vs giving a child up for a lifestyle choice. Not knowing what the future holds and having enough sense to know that she/he themself is not capable of raising that child financially or mentally. Often a young teen who is still by all rights a child themself. Giving it up at birth and all rights. Yes I see that as selfless. Would I see that person in the same light if they gave up that child souly to continue a certain lifestyle , no! I don’t see finishing high school or growing up a lifestlye. Would I rather this young teen keep the child , go on welfare , raise it with their limited life experience and understanding of how the world works , again No. We have enough of that as it is. I see it as part of the problem with todays world. Yet once a person , an adult has made the decision to have and RAISE a child and later decides no I not want to do this anymore because this child is cramping my lifestyle , yes I see that as selfish. How can I not ? How can you not. I am not the person who defines the word selfish but I know what it means. I guess only the person giving up the child can really determine if it was for a selfish reason or not as none of us can know what is truly in anothers mind or heart. We kind of just have to take them at their word. Which is why I said I would never rake a person over the coals for making a decision to give up a child. YET if they were to say I gave this child up to better their life because I CHOOSE to be in this bdsm relationship , selfish. Please don’t begin to tell me being in a bdsm relationship isn’t a choice. They would be giving that child up for their own personal lifestyle. They put themselves first. Had they not, as you have proven already it is possible of having both the children and the lifestyle. Anyone who really wants it can have it. Giving a child up at birth while already in a bdsm relationship I would also see as selfless. Once that child is in your life , sorry to give it up then for a lifestyle YOU choose over that child , selfish.
I know I am not half the writer that you are and I may not be conveying my thoughts as cearly which is why I seldom give my point of view. I don’t often have the time or focus to give my thoughts but , wow at what you think of me and my life with my “precious children”. I am amazed at how you think they are all that is in my life. That my entire world revolves around them, that I have no wants or desires that are not twisted around them. The day will come when both you and I will be hearing the creaking of the rafters. You seem to think I will be hearing only the creaking of the rafters, lonliness and despair and you will be hearing freedom ring. You seem to think that I will be sitting in this house all alone and listening to sounds. That I have not thought about the day they all leave or planned for that day. Life does not always turn out as one plans. SHIT happens when you least expect it. How limited your mind is in some areas. Why is that all you see when you look me ? Don’t plant in in a rocking chair withering away with nothing to do but listen to the creaking rafters. You seem to think your bdsm gives you some kind of glorified future. While you admit everyone and everything comes second in your life besides your master. You can’t again have your cake and eat it too. After a while of treating everything and everyone near you as second best they learn to accept that and step away. Yes just as I have reluctantaly done. You can’t tell me everyday that you love me and how important I am to you without occasionally showing it. The truth comes shinning though. It is felt. It is felt in the unanswered emails , the unanswered phone calls, the unreturned emails or phone calls . You can package it all up in a nice little “master says I can’t ” excuse but you are now and have been from the beginning the one that made the choice to enter into that relastionship. You picked it over all else.
I love ya , always have. But your bdsm relationship does not automatically ensure you a happy tied to the rafter listening to freedom ring future you have in mind. . I do hope you get that. I want nothing more than to see you happy.
As for me and my “precious children” as you put it ( I put it ,the brats that cant seem to get their shit together long enough to get the hell out and stay out) I guess you will just have to imagine what ever you want..or seek out permission to find out. I am done being the friend who is just here when you want , most if not ALL adult relationships in nearly every walk of life has to be a two way street. I know that doesn’t go well in your bdsm lifestyle . Maybe this is what has been coming all along , for you to be truly and totally his , you have to cut this tie ? Me , your tie to your past life. Is that what has been happening all this time ?
I hope you continue to blog. I will continue to read if you allow me too. I like knowing you are still about and all that you get into … but I refuse to keep injecting myself into your life when you seem to not want me there. When I feel unwanted there. I will not however post my opinions again. Mostly I just miss you.
Wow. You took things WAY out of context baby. There were no personal digs in what I said to you. Not one. Hypotheticals in asking you things, but you read things that I did not say or mean. The “precious children” was in no way meant to belittle you or your kids, ffs. You quoted it to me out of my original post which certainly wasn’t about you and I quoted it back to you from the same vein.
What I see when I look at you? Jesus. You helped me through so much and now you think I see something, what? worthless? pathetic? Because of one misunderstood blog post? Boy, if you meant to hurt you sure did. I see a lot of things, most of them admirable. Most of them things I wish I could emulate.
I want nothing but a lifetime of happiness and contentment for you. It’s all I’ve ever wanted for you. However that manifests itself. I’d have supported, and helped you, in any way that I could.
And WHAT unanswered phone calls and emails?? You don’t call me. You don’t write me. No more so than I do you. Stop trying to make me feel guilty. We both suck at staying in frequent contact and you know it. I thought we had one of the kinds of friendships that was always there, ready to spring up whenever we could find the time to visit. Apparently I was wrong.
I’ve always suspected you had this level of vitriol about the whole bdsm Master/slave thing. I knew it was too easy, how you purported to accept it, me, us and how we live. I’m sorry you feel that way and I’m sorry this relationship has hurt you. At least know that wasn’t my intent. M/s is a selfish venture, I freely admit that. You certainly are not obligated to be witness to it. No, I – WE- had no reason or intent on “cutting you out” of my life. Yes, there has to be some amount of restriction, it’s part of the process. But I understand if you want no part of that. That was a choice I made, and unfortunately, sadly, it affected you.
Your lifstyle has affected me ? Are you that far out of touch with reality ? I have accepted you and your lifstyle at EVERY turn. How you can even sit there and say that I have not is beyond me. I often do have opinions about things that are not the same as yours. It is your pulling away , the way YOU TREAT ME that has me upset. I am not the one that has changed nor meant to undergo any changes in their personal being. I can and do accept your lifestyle and HAVE respected it totally.
You know what… I am done. So sorry I had a differnet opinion than you and thought I could post it here where the rest of your ‘friends’ do. Perhaps it is just that you have moved on from the likes of me.
As for what unanswered emails and phone calls … think back to why you gave me this site in the first place. Yes I stopped sending emails , stopped calling. That is what people do when they feel slightted , ignored , pushed back. You push people away at every turn on your quest to be his cunt totally. Or is it just me ? And you fear that one day I will have nothing but the ratfers creaking ? Isn’t that your goal ? Good luck with that… I hope once you finally acheive it you find it is exactly what you wanted.
as for no personal digs.
“I would never call you those things. Not unless you call me a stupid, selfish bitch for making the parenting decisions that I’ve made. If you do, well then all bets are off and I guess we could go round with the name calling. I think you are better at it than I am, but I’ll give it a good shot!
But let me ask you something in complete and utter seriousness. Where are YOU in your life. What do you do just for baby? Do you make yourself, your marriage, your happiness just as much of a priority as your precious children? What do you want for you, when the kids have lives of their own and children of their own and your house creaks in the middle of a long, empty night – is it so terrible to keep baby some happiness, along WITH giving your kids what they need?
And I can tell you this. You give your kids WAY more than what they need. You know you do. You go far above and beyond the call of motherly duty. And what I hope, sincerely and purely because I love you to pieces, is that you keep some of YOU, not mom-you, but you-you, because if you don’t? Nobody else will.”
really I am better at name calling than you are ? WTH did that come from ? I see its wrong for me to make my kids number 1 in my life but perfectly okay for you to make HIM number 1 in yours and cut out anyone and everyone else. TO become totally his cunt. Who are you to think you get to assign who gets top rating in my life ? Yes I give my kids WAY more than they need. I guess that is wrong as well ? YOu are the one claiming to be giving youself TOTALLY to him , yet you see it as wrong for me to give someone of my chosing way more than they need. You are so double standard and you can’t even see it. I am not the one being lost by my giving at all. IT IS YOU. THAT is your plan ,or again do I have all I have read over the years , wrong ? Again I wasn’t referring to YOUR parenting decisions at all. FFS. I don’t see where you have given away any children for your lifestyle.
what ever kaya… this has gone way past me just posting my opinion which was all I wished to do. See things how ever you want. Truly sorry for the intrusion.
Whatever. You’re hell bent on finding insult where there isn’t any.
I’m from the UK, and often people from the US seem uptight about sex and maybe a bit extreme in terms of politics and religion. However most of the porn and gambling stuff on the net seems to be American, why is that? Why don’t the religious campaign against that rather than being against evolution, abortion clinics and gun laws.
An interesting read on a delicate subject. Thanks for sharing.