Oppression is in the eye of the oppressed?
I’m still reading along over at Nine Deuce’s place. I thought it was decent that she’d posted a somewhat more reasonable explanatory post, but I was glad to see she’s getting it with both barrels by pro-bdsm bloggers, too.
And, I found it pretty ironic that she got all butt-hurt over an insult when she’s so insulting herself. But that’s not very nice of me. *snickering behind my hand*
However, what I want to talk about is the current, rather interesting conversation going on over there, that is, so far as I can tell, remaining polite and adult-like.
There are a lot of comparisons being made between being kinky and being homosexual. Chiefly, trying to equate the oppression of homosexuals with the (supposed) oppression of BDSMers.
There are certainly some correlations, I think. But I’m not sure it’s anywhere near the same.
Unless you happen to be both homosexual *and* kinky. Double whammy?
So homosexuals are fighting for their rights. Basic rights equal to the rights of straight people. The right to marriage, the right to adopt or raise their own child, the right to secured employment, the right to live in peace – and whatever else they are fighting for (I don’t want the focus to be on gay rights).
But what right, exactly, are BDSMers fighting for? What are we denied?
I think it IS true that there are severe injustices surrounding the kink world. I think there are people who are prosecuted who shouldn’t be, I think people get fired for no other reason than being kinky, I think people lose custody of their kids for no other reason than being kinky. I think people hide who they are, I think they feel shame and embarrassment, I think kinky people are prone to depressions and disorders, quite possibly due to feeling shunned society.
But does that equal oppression? In the same way that homosexuals are oppressed? Does it matter that it’s perhaps not as bad, does it have to be the same to be a valid complaint?
Would it be accurate to say that homosexuals are not nearly as oppressed as black people were (are)? Therefore, they cannot stake a claim on oppression either?
I do see a connection in the language being used though. For sure. How those people over there are talking about bdsm and our sexual practices is almost word for word how people talked about homosexuality. The same insults, the same spoken fears, the same suspicions. And I think that’s more than a little scary, to be honest.
I’ve been asking myself when it comes to my kinky self, what right would I fight for or what discrimination would I wish to end, if I could change anything.
I’m not forbidden from marrying my partner. I’m not worried that holding my partner’s hand in public will be cause to get my ass kicked. I’m not disallowed to be on my partner’s health insurance or from entering his ICU room.
We are recognized as a couple by society, recognized as a family by society. We’re accepted as a couple by friends and family.
We can go to his company Christmas party without raising an eyebrow or jeapordizing his job. He has a picture of me on his desk and introduces me as his wife.
It’s very mainstream. Very accepted. So what would I fight for? What is the basis for a claim of oppression?
Because there is no denying that we hide things, that we feel like we’re forced to put on an act for people, that we aren’t being true to ourselves unless we’re safely shut in behind closed doors.
I have no interest in some of the more in-your-face performances that other people might be fighting for. We don’t find it appropriate, even if it were widely accepted, to stroll around in a collar and leash or sit at his feet on the floor in a restaurant.
I don’t want to wear nipple clamps down Main Street. (As one comment said over at ND’s place)
I guess I’d fight for simple acceptance. I guess I’d like to not have to see the smirk on the waitress’s face when I turn to ask Master what I can order. I’d like to not have to hem and haw to vanilla acquaintances to stall for time to ask permission. I’d like to not have to lie when his answer is no.
I could do without being sneered at when I tell the cashier that she’ll have to ask my husband when she offers to sign me up for a store credit card.
I’d like to think that should Master be spotted at a kink event, his job is secure.
I’d like to not stumble over what to call him as we crisscross between the kink world and the vanilla world.
One world would be sweet, wouldn’t it?
So what say you on the idea that BDSMers are oppressed? Does that theory hold water for you?
The other debate going on over there is whether or not kink is an orientation or a choice.
My feeling is it can be both. It depends on the individual.
I believe that for some people it is a choice to be kinky, just as some people choose to be homosexual. I don’t think that’s equal to “faking it”, not at all. But I think it is a choice. They can find satisfaction and happiness making either choice. They can have functional and healthy relationships being straight or with a member of the same sex, and they can do the same when engaging in kink or when living completely vanilla.
I think for others it’s an orientation. I believe submission or dominance can be a person’s sexual orientation, just as homosexuality is other’s orientation. It’s not a choice and there isn’t the option of living fully when choosing a different lifestyle.
I’m not sure the people arguing over there quite comprehend that. They seem to believe that we’re choosing to be kinky and choosing to engage in these activities when we could just as easily choose not to.
They appear to see it as a question of logic and morals more so than a matter of orientation and being “wired” for it.
And really, this is where I begin to compare BDSM to homosexuality. If they can grasp the concepts of homosexuality, I’m hopeful they can grasp BDSM in that same way. But each time we try and go there, the homosexuals stand up and start screaming to stop equating their orientation with our sick, perverted choices.
We’re defiling the beauty of homosexuality, we’re belittling their battles, we’re trying to ride their coattails.
So what do you think? Do you think BDSMers are oppressed? Do you think we have anything to fight *for* or do you think we’re fighting for the sake of fighting?
Also, what are your thoughts on kink being a choice or an orientation?
Is there any merit in trying to get people to see being gay and being kinky as the same thing and therefore, worthy of the same acceptance?
Tags: general, M/s rambles
Uncategorized | kaya | 
Friday March 6th, 2009 12:18pm
Excellent food for thought. i’m still running on a super low tank, and so my noodle is limper than usual, but i do want to hash out what i think about all of this at some point. i’m just not braining well today.
lol, okay. You renew your brain.
I don’t think it’s that we’re oppressed, I think it’s that many people in the community want more than society is willing to give.
Some people want to walk around leashed. Some places don’t have a problem with it. Some people want to be stripped naked in a vanilla setting and beaten within an inch of their life. And that isn’t okay in very many places.
BDSM is almost entirely a sexual thing. While we DO have every right to be recognized as people and not freaks, why do other people have to know what goes on in our bedroom?
I think maybe part of the problem that the ‘nilla wafers have is that there ARE so many exhibitionists/voyeurs and the like in the kinky world, and having it rubbed in their faces bothers them. I don’t blame them, because I feel awkward when my parents talk about their (kinky) sex life. Not because they’re my parents, but because it’s just so odd that people want to share intimate details of their lives
Well that pretty much was the train of thought over there too. That it should stay in the bedroom so what’s the big deal.
I don’t necessarily disagree with that, because, like you said, I agree that bdsm IS largely sexual.
But then again, so is homosexuality. On that train of thought, and if that’s the standard, then why can’t they just pretend to be roommates?
I think there is more than just sexuality, but I’m really wavering on what *it* is, you know?
I strongly disagree that homosexuality is mostly sexual. Pretending to be roommates isn’t an option for a lifelong relationship, or, in my state, a marriage. For example, I have gay friends who were very low-key about their relationship. But that all changed when they had a child. How could they raise their daughter to be proud of her family if they couldn’t even be open about it?
“Pretending to be roommates isn’t an option for a lifelong relationship”
I agree. I was trying to insert a little devil’s advocate up there.
I think homosexuality is *as* much of a sexual entity as my orientation to kink is.
I mean, homosexuality is defined as a sexual attraction to the same sex so you can’t say it’s NOT sexual, right? I feel the same way about my bdsm proclivities. It IS sexual in that that’s what I’m attracted to, but it’s not *just about sex* which is why the approach of “just keep it in the bedroom” doesn’t sit right.
Beyond that, I can’t articulate why it doesn’t sit right.
Yup, I figured you were being a devil
You’re absolutely right, the kink thing isn’t just sexual either. Our relationship is nothing like yours, but we are searching for nonsexual ways to express our D/s dynamic. As we find more ways to do this, our relationship feels richer and we feel ever closer.
But, I don’t feel any oppression from keeping that private. It’s very different from pretending that my partner is just a roommate.
Reading more of the responses, I do realize a type of legal oppression that can be faced by BDSMers, which is child custody. I don’t have children, so that isn’t an issue for me. But yes, a very real issue.
Along with the child custody issue is that people do get fired when they are outed for being kinky.
And there are cases of people being prosecuted, not only small-time minor cases under “domestic violence” (you can’t consent to abuse, you know! But that really seems to depend a lot on the officers who respond, as well as the area, and, I’m sure, the attitudes of the people involved.) but also in larger, higher profile cases of people who produce bdsm porn sitting in jail.
So I can see that there needs to be some level of acceptance, even if none of us ever want to take this outside of the privacy of our living room – we also shouldn’t have to live in fear of being the next person on trial.
From above: “While we DO have every right to be recognized as people and not freaks, why do other people have to know what goes on in our bedroom?”
Because for a lot of people who engage in BDSM, particularly those who engage in D/s and make this a way of life, it’s not what goes on in the bedroom that matters. For people who engage in kinky sex, yes, it’s a simple matter of viewing it as a matter of privacy and that no one needs to know what goes on in your bedroom. Of course, there is still the fear of having to slink around in your small home town because even being spotted at an adult sex store puts your job, your reputation, your life as you know it in that town…at risk.
But for those of us who live it…it’s more than that. Yes, it is sexualized. Both homosexuality and D/s are sexual in nature which is THE problem.
Our society…the puritan ancestors of our society…have had a HUGE impact on the way that people, even today, think about sex and sexual activity. I mean…sure, there’s a sex store on every corner…people talk about sex a lot more openly and you see it on tv all the time..but truly…deep down, the MAJORITY of people are ashamed of their sexuality. They’re ashamed of “normal” sexuality so anything that is different: homosexuality, kink….is taboo so anything that represents those relationships, ie: the people involved in them themselves, they are going to want to shove back into the closet so that they don’t have to look at them…or worse yet, destroy them altogether so that they don’t even exist.
And…well, Kaya…unfortunately, many of the things that you described in your post about wishing that they were different? Those things don’t have anything to do with the oppression of kink as they do the effect that feminism has had on the minds of women. (and to some extent, men) but that’s another soapbox for another time.
Kaya,
I don’t think I’ve seen it described better than this. It makes so much sense that there are both among the kinksters; those who’ve made conscious choices to be kinky and those who’ve been chosen by kink. I think the same is true of just about any human condition, be it sexual orientation, jobs (I’m convinced teaching chose me, not the other way around).
As for whether kinksters are oppresssed, that’s a touchy one. Part of what has vanillas worried is the slippery slope argument. Keep in mind, I present this not as something I subscribe to, but as something many worry about, and until we can address this concern rationally, it won’t go away. The argument goes like this. If we accept homosexuality as “just another orientation” then the next thing you know, we’ll be treating people who like to whip their partners as part of sex as “just another sexual orientation.” From there, it’s just a matter of time until we start calling pedophiles “just another sexual orientation.” The idea is that once you alloow “the line” to be crossed once, it’s easier (thus slippery) to cross it again. vanillas see it as a desensitizing thing, the more you accept, the less you can muster an argument against the “next thing.”
Now, before you cry foul at invoking pedophilia, considder this; for the first ten to fifteen years of the open gay rigts movement, gay pride parades allowed NAMBLA (North American Man-Boy Love Association, whose motto is sex before eight or its to late) to march in their gay pride parades. To the straight vanilla world, that presence said that gays accepted pedophiles as normal (whether they did or not is not important, the impression given was).
But, we don’t have to go there to find the “next thing” on the slippery slope in vanilla eyes. I operate an affiliate site for an erotic ebook publisher (yes, that’s my link). Did you know that the constsitantly most popular books are the non-consent BDSM stories? Vanillas look at that kind of statistic and say, “See, they really want rape acceptable as a sexual orientation. Why would they mostly read rape novels to get off on.” So, if BDSM is accepted as an orientation, the slippery slope is to accept that soemone can have a sexual orientation that demands he have sex with unwilling people. “Just you watch,” the vanilla will say, “sometime soon, a rapist will get off because that’s just the way he is.”
Now, is the slippery slope right? Of course not. The primary assumption of the slippery slope argument is that crossing any line will predispose you to cross all the lines. This just isn’t true. We know this, and people who aren’t so frightened of their personal boogey men would see this as well. The problem is just that, fear. fear for one’s kids, one’s way of life, of one’s beliefs, of one’s comfort zones. If we want acceptence, we have to deal with the fear. I just know that if my roommate’s wife knew I was into BDSM, she’d be terrified of what effect I’d have on her 4 and 5 year old. When it comes to her kids, rational doesn’t cut it.
So, are we oppressed? Maybe, but not much. To be truly oppressed, you have to be very visible, and we’ve been under the radar for quite some time. I think it’ll get worse before it gets better, as more people come out into the open about their kinks; and we, like the homosexuals did earlier, deal with the differences between being known and flaunting differences to a disturbing level. part of what’s helping homosexuals gain acceptance (IMHO) is that they’ve found a balance between being openly homosexual and being openly sexual. When we, as the kinky community, find that balance between being openly kinksters and being openly kinky, then we’ll start agining more general acceptance too. It won’t be easy, nothing worthwhile ever is, but it can be done.
Dave
I think you are making some great points. The slippery slope is definitely a factor. I agree.
I also think that it’s unfortunate that for most people who attempt to “research” kink, they end up only being exposed to the extreme end of the spectrum without the background knowledge of knowing they’re at the extreme end. Just like Nine Deuce researching kink.com’s website without necessarily understanding that most of us normal kinksters don’t LIVE like they show on The Story of O’s porn site.
(I might be mistaken but it seems like when the gay rights movement started, it was the flambouyant men in ass-less chaps leading the parades and I’m pretty sure that set the movement back by a few decades.)
I hear that “just another orientation” about bestiality a lot. So that’s a valid point too.
“When we, as the kinky community, find that balance between being openly kinksters and being openly kinky, then we’ll start agining more general acceptance too.”
Yes. I agree.
I was in a long relationship with a woman. I live in Massachusetts and we got married. For the record, our relationship ended a few years ago, and so now we are divorced. I am bisexual (always have been) and I am now involved with a man.
For the years that I was in this relationship, I was out to everyone, including parents, employers, doctors, you name it. After the first few years where I had to come out, I had no problems at all with acceptance. However, the legal issues that you mentioned in your post were (and are) huge. Even as a legally married couple in Massachusetts, we had no federal recognition as a couple. We could not file joint tax returns. I could have her on my health insurance, but the extra money that the company paid to insure her was a taxable benefit. We had to be extra careful with wills, owning property, and other legal issues. I have friends who married in Massachusetts, and then moved to other states where their marriages aren’t recognized. I also have married friends with children where the nonbiological parent has to adopt the children. And the list just goes on.
I know these are things that most people probably know, but I’ve experienced them firsthand. So for me, there is no comparison between being kinky and being gay.
I’ve focused on the legal issues, but there are certainly day-to-day issues of acceptance. I never experienced them much in a lesbiand relationship. But nonacceptance can happen in all kinds of . When I got involved with a man, I had to “come out” to people in my life all over again. I faced the discomfort of people who thought they knew who I was and then suddenly had to change their view of me. My boyfriend/Dom used to be a religious fundamentalist, and he didn’t always “come out” to people about it. I don’t have the type of M/s relationship that you have, kaya. But S knows plenty of women who are Christian fundamentalists and who have to ask their husbands’ permission to do anything, just as you do.
For me, my kinky life is private, and I have absolutely no problem with that. As you note, it’s very different from having to hide the existence of your primary relationshop.
“I know these are things that most people probably know, but I’ve experienced them firsthand. So for me, there is no comparison between being kinky and being gay.”
Right. And I think thats where the angry response from the homosexuality community is coming from. For them, there is no comparison whatsoever and I guess they feel that their plight of oppression is being undermined. Rightly so perhaps.
Shoot, I should have proofread more carefully
I noticed when Prop 8 passed, there were a lot of black people standing up and saying they’d voted for Prop 8 and damn those queers and they’ve NEVER seen the kind of oppression and horrible hate-filled actions that black people had.
I thought it was pretty fucked up to see one black man in particular talk about his family’s past…and in the same sentence condemn gay people and state how they shouldn’t be able to be married.
What’s the difference? Really, WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE? Hate, based on ignorance, is hate based on ignorance. People have come to ‘accept’ black people, realizing they’re no different than the rest of us.
We’re still working on that for gay folks, yes? We’re not always there 100% with black people, OR with gay people. For me, it’s not different.
And I think that kinky people can absolutely be oppressed, out of ignorance and hate…those people who lose their jobs, their children, whatever. It’s all wrapped up in the same blanket, as far as I’m concerned.
I also firmly believe that being of a kinky persuasion is part of ones personality. If there’s always going to be a piece of themselves yearning for something more or different, that’s not something tha can be, or should be, ignored. It’s an inherent piece of me, my kinkiness. I found my slavery through it – and while that may not be something I was born with (who knows if it’s got anything to do with the patriarchy or not…how can we ever even know that?), it’s still a vital piece of me.
This is long and jumbled and I have to go wake Daddy up…I hope it made sense.
I think it made perfect sense and I agree with you.
But the conversation just seems to go round and round.
“Hate, based on ignorance, is hate based on ignorance.”
Yes. Absolutely.
You gave me an idea for a long boring like but hopefully interesting blog post. Thanks.
There’s also poly relationships that some might want to consider. While some individuals in poly relationships practice no form of D/s, it still is defined as a kink by some. Whether or not it’s a kink isn’t really the point of my ramblings though. I’ve heard the poly factor cited often in the “slippery slope” argument about rights for homosexuals. My family was very accepting when my sister revealed she was gay. But, when I revealed that I was dating a couple, they totally flipped!
I guess I don’t really have a point. LOL. Just thought I’d throw poly relationshps into the mix (because I’m sure there wouldn’t be enough to discuss with just homosexuality and kink!)
[...] the issue of Kink’s rights. I have no opinion (yeah, right) that I can express in a reply to her very engaging thread. For me it’s a non-issue. I’m an old git well established in my career, I have no [...]
Back in the 50′s, women were expected to ask their husbands for permission on almost everything…womens lib is good..but sometimes not for everything! sad how things that were acceptable before are looked upon badly now. Makes you wonder if those couples in the 50′s were just really kinky!
Oppression is in the eye of the beholder I think. There are different degrees I think. Slavery (in the historical sense)was more oppressive than the present oppression on homosexuals, which is at times more opressive than that of the African American, Native and Mexian populations.
Is the kink community oppressed? I think so. When my lifestyle choices could legally (yay moral turpetide) cause me to lose my teaching licsense, or effect my chances at adoption it certainly sound oppressive to me. But the oppression is of a lower degree than some others. I would like to live my life freely without the chance of losing my job or children- I don’t want to wear a leash in public, or sit on the floor in a cafe, I just want to get knocked around by a guy in leather sometimes ^^
I can understand the kneejerk reaction of homosexuals to want to contrast and compare the opression, the rights that they are fighting for…but really, do the degrees really matter when what we’re really talking about here, fundamentally…is the right to be who you are without fearing retribution and without having to hide it? What do the legal ramifications matter when you boil it down like that?
I agree with the argument that someone above made, that it’s the slippery slope thing that gets pulled out…except that that’s an illogical emotional argument and it should be pointed out as such. No one should ever be kept from being who they are…unless they are hurting someone else. I’m pretty sure that rapists and pedophiles fall into the category of non-consensual…hurting someone else.
As far as I’m concerned, even though the degrees don’t really matter…homosexuals refuse to see that kinky people are actually dealing with the same thing that they are…only backwards. Homosexuals are fighting for the same rights that any married couple have…kinky people are fighting to KEEP the rights that they have…and only have because they pretend to be “normal”. The moment that anyone comes out of their closet…they are going to lose those rights in a good amount of cases. They will lose their job, they will lose their reputations (which is necessary to function in business) they will loose their children and in some cases, they will loose their freedom and be put in a cage for a victim-less crime.
You want to know why black people had it worse? Because they couldn’t hide. They couldn’t pretend that their skin was another color, like a homosexual could pretend that their lover was their roommate, or like a kinky individual can pretend to be vanilla. But…all of those comparisons, like I said before…don’t matter because ANYTHING that takes away an individuals freedom to live their lives in the way that makes them most happy…that doesn’t hurt someone else…is wrong and the fact that these different factions refuse to stand together and recognize that is sad…and doesn’t give me a lot of hope that what SHOULD be happening…that EVERYONE should stand up together and recognize that fact (in a multitude of areas in our society, not just this one) will ever happen.
fyrespryte said: You want to know why black people had it worse? Because they couldn’t hide. They couldn’t pretend that their skin was another color, like a homosexual could pretend that their lover was their roommate, or like a kinky individual can pretend to be vanilla
Good point.
Go kaya!–RE the “feminist” (hater) blog catching grief. I’m sure your readers had much to do with it.
I think there’s merit in getting people to see that being kinky and being gay are *not at all* the same thing… and that they deserve the same acceptance because whatever people do with consenting adults they love is no grounds for denial of human or social rights.
I think there are so many good points in the text & comments section that i could never really top. However, i think we’ve come a long way in tolerating different lifestyles. i say we as in “the US” i don’t know about other countries. You’re always going to have those who refuse to accept it, live repressed lives, those who are actively anti- something. But in general, we’ve developed tolerance for alternative lifestyles, in my opinion.
i think M/s is first a choice (sexual experiementation) and then becomes a lifestyle. Again, my opinion. Interesting.
You’re always so engaging!
xoxx
Hey, I was just wodering if spanking and stuff like it, are they counted as violence against wemon? I mean for us it’s obviously consentual, but if like a nieghbore or somone saw you through a window and called the cops what would you say?
[...] Is Kink Oppressed? Is it Oppressed like ____? Serious discussion! First, some definitions. It’s useful to be on the same page so to speak… Kaya got me going. [...]