I agree with your musings for the most part. Though in some cases I think the submissiveness may not be there either.

The theoretical case you described sounds to me like the story of a Dom who is probably into being a bedroom Dom but too lazy or uninterested for full-time work and the “novice” submissive who wants so much to be shown His dominance that she’ll push everywhere she can to get him to show dominance.

This was precisely the situation I faced with “He-Who-Shall-Remain-Nameless,” the former husband. We attempted to create a D/s relationship, but it was because I wanted it, and not something that was ever in his nature (or really anything he acutally wanted). I forever found myself shoring up his “Dominance,” and attempting to maintain some sort of submission where there was really nothing to submit to. The truth is that I am controlling by nature. If you give me the power to control things, I will. It isn’t good for me, but it is the reality of who I am. That dynamic was exhausting.

With Himself, I can still get into the mode of pulling control to myself. He is not one to hold the reins tightly most of the time. The difference is that He is FULLY capable of catching my antics and correcting when I cross into the zone of unacceptable “power grab.” He knows exactly who He is, and He knows just what He wants and how to make sure He gets it from me. There is sometimes struggle, but there is no question about who will always end up in control here.

swan

I disagree actually. I don’t think that dominance is necessarily like that. It could be that they aren’t suited for that kind of D/s relationship - maybe he just wants things to take care of themselves rather than have to deal with more whining/bitching/ whatever. It just honestly doesn’t matter to him.

The relationship dynamic sounds ill suited for the couple, on both sides, but not necessarily that he isn’t dominant. Just dominant in a way that doesn’t work for that particular submissive.

i think there’s a tendency on the part of submissives to assume the ‘natural superiority’ of a dominant. That’s why there’s so much BS about ‘true’ this and ‘true’ that, because - lets face it - who wants to come to terms with being a slave to some fully human dude (complete with the totally normal human ‘failings’ of occasional laziness, confidence issues, wanting you to be happy, etc).

So, we hang tight to that fantasy that some other dude is that perfect, hard-ass (but not TOO hard) all-the-time masterly guy who never makes a mistake. He’s the “One” and maybe - just maybe - to every other guy (of the human variety) D/s is just a game or its not ‘real’. i know that fantasy has caused me to doubt what i have. The grass always seems greener over yonder, yo.

i think if you’re the submissive it’s 100% your job to make the D/s work in a power exchange. i think if you’re a dominant it’s 100% your job to make the D/s work in a power exchange. It takes 200% effort to make it work. If either person is worrying about how the other person isn’t measuring up they are wasting energy better spent invested in something that will make a difference. The best advice i ever got was to stop worrying about what he is or isn’t doing and to start concentrating on what i was or wasn’t doing. 200% isn’t always possible.

i don’t think anyone is 100% submissive or 100% dominant. We each fall somewhere on the scale. Everybody waffles sometimes. Everybody manipulates sometimes. Maybe some people really are trying to be something they aren’t (in fact, i’m sure of it), but a lot of us are just trying to stay on the tightrope, and sometimes we can do back-flips up here and sometimes we have to hang on by our toenails.

Second question: I was initially going to mention that just because the dominant (we will assume dom=male, sub=female for simplicity) isn’t dominating this aspect, he may be more of a dominant in other areas for instance more a sadist than a dom or just comfortably vanilla (neither dom nor sub.) I feel we are inclined to keep kinky people in our kinky world when they just really may not fit.

I also don’t agree with the pushy controlling sub being a secret dom. I have most of my life in control and I will fight for just about anything that I am passionate about. Submission to me means that I’m not agreeing to do whatever my dom wants, I am submitting to his demands. If I disagree and fight, I still submit to his demands regardless of my reservations. Fighting out my reservations is a part of my D/s and the act of my “defiance” doesn’t make me less of a sub; just a sub in progress. I believe we all are subs in progress and issues will always crop up in the course of my beautiful life with my dom. I am always getting to know him better and he for me. I want to be pushed and do things that I disagree with. I will most likely always work on submitting without any discussion. I want him to assert his dominance. I am also a sub and there is no denying this fact just because I fight some of his choices. What I believe a more accurate description of the sub’s action is from cuntnextdoor above, where she (I’m assuming from the word cunt) states that the sub is controlling to get a point where the dom finally dominates.

However, I tend to take a sub view of things and must acknowledge my bias. While I continue to believe the sub is definitely a sub, the dom may be a dom in this picture. We do not know to what degree he “waffles” and quite frankly my dom waffles on a bunch of stuff. He still is very distinctly a dom. I believe it is almost impossible to know what I am doing and thinking at all times and still live in the real world. He makes allowances when I’m overworked, overwhelmed and I strive to get things done when I can or to alter the negative situation as quickly as possible. But we are human, and as such, limited by definition.

First question: Ahh when definitions mean everything. The comments above make great points. Both are responsible. I think most people have encountered this situation as well. Perhaps the real issue is just that things come up and a serious heart-to-heart discussion about what their D/s relationship should look like and what each need from the other should be brought up. Everyone has times when things don’t run smoothly. Life causes things to happen to get in the way of our ideal everything. We should not expect our lives to function in anything but the real world.

Maybe what I’m rambling on about is this: We should not expect our lives to occur without conflict, be that a fight, discussion, resistance, misunderstanding or greater understanding.

I think the latest post by spiral submissive brings my point about agreement and submission into focus: “I feel like what I’m trying to work on right now is not agreeing to the things that Sir wants, but submitting, simply accepting what he wants with no turmoil.”

And she references the better example by luna lux: “there’s a difference between being comfortable, and being numb. i spent a lot of time numb, complacent and resigned, in what i thought was the only available path for me.

you’re doomed if you take the easy way. complacency and resignation are deadly.

i read something a while ago about the difference between “agreement” and “submission”. if i agree that everything that’s done to me is erotic and comfortable and makes me happy, then i am not submitting, i am *agreeing* to obey. i submit when i comply and obey and am forced to do things that i am not in agreement with.

there is no reasoning with dominance. there is no negotiation, no discussion, no caution.”

IMO, IT is up to both of them to fix the relationship in the first question, whether that’s taking up the roles they’ve agreed on or deciding to not have a full 24/7 D/s relationship. But the Dom(me) has the most responsibility for it. True the sub needs to me more submissive but if the Dom(me) was more Dominant, he/she would Not take the Whining and moaning, just as Kaya’s Master didn’t give in to the sulking anger she said a short time ago was how she still tried to win arguments.

As to the second question, it could be that either the Dom(me) or sub or both is actually a switch and doesn’t want to admit it, or they could be in the wrong roles altogether. Or, if they are in a new D/s relationship it could just be that they have to get used to their roles and the others expectations.

Well that’s my thoughts anyway.

I hesitate to say that Beloved ‘waffles’…but his exposure to D/s play in the past disgusted him. When I began talking to him about exploring, he kind of put me off because he didn’t have any interest in particular types of scenes. Also, like minxieone said, he’s not 100% Dominant 100% of the time. He needs me to be strong and to lean on me in certain situations.

As a submissive needing a Dom, I began to seek out avenues that I thought WOULD interest him. Presentations on sensual spanking, how to accept service (I’m very much a service submissive), local munches so we could meet and talk to other D/s couples. I picked up “Different Loving” for bathroom reading. I bought a collar and lock.

Maybe some would be horrified by a submissive doing these sorts of things without consulting the Dom, but slowly Beloved began to understand what it was I was asking for…needing. We had our first public scene last weekend, and it was amazing!

We are still working out what is right for us, but it is BOTH our responsibilities to communicate. If I don’t like something, I have to voice it. If he wants something, he has to speak. Yes, we still play with safewords, and yes, there is still some negotiation going on, but as he grows in his Dominance, I become more submissive.

I believe primarily that this is a relationship question, and the answer might not be found specifically within the D/s lifestyle. First off I feel you should question whether the waffling is a flaw in their life. Is it something that causes friction in their relationship?

If they are both fine with the waffling, then who are we to call it wrong? My mother used to say ‘Firm rules are needed when training pets and children’, and in my mind this is true regardless of species and actual relation to you. But, some prefer to be untrained but contained, some prefer to be restrained but uninhibited, some prefer to be handled with careful but absolute control in the bedroom, but run loose in life. I am quite sure waffling could occur in any of these relationships while the couple fluidly explores the boundaries of the control they want between them.

If the waffling is a problem on the other hand, then as a point of friction it needs to be addressed. And yes, both parties of the relationship is responsible for it happening, and both parties need to work to address it. I believe there could be several reasons for this problem.

There could be the case of a too dominant submissive, and too submissive dominant, as you described. The couple should consider switching for a day or a play, just to see the other side and get a better grip on what their partner might be facing. Maybe they will find the new part they try on perfect, and maybe they will just get a better understanding for all that is required of their playmate. I am of the school that everyone involved with D/s should switch at least once to get the full picture.

There is also the possibility of a too vanilla dominant. You forget in your thoughts of this that the options are not only between dominant and submissive, but also includes some degree of ‘normality’, whatever one chooses to put into that term. I still recommend switching for a day, as it might still show a better match. If not, then other alternatives need to be pursued.

Also, it may be a too inexperienced dominant, who will constantly be worried of stepping on metaphorical toes or boundaries, and therefore backs quickly away from any debated task. There are too many stories today of people pressing charges later for something they consented to today, and as a dominant it can feel like dangerous waters to press your will on someone. In this case, switch roles for a day… not do address the problem but as I said, it is worth it. To address the issue on the other hand, negotiate the limits strictly, work out a safe word, and get it all written down and signed, preferably witnessed by a third party. This should hopefully give the dominant mental rest enough to be more assertive in his job.

I apologize, this feels like it is turning into a long post, I will wrap it up.

I am sure there are more possibilities, but in the end there is just one thing to remember. D/s is still just another relationship. If one side fails in one area, it is up to the other to help smooth the whole relationship out until a solution can be negotiated. It is not an immediate thing, but rather a process, as is every step of our lives. For an example in point: A dominant that will give would not be a problem in itself, unless the submissive exploits this. While the dominant learns to be more assertive, the submissive needs to be respective of the process and not try to push the issues every time.

Wow….I was so going to give my two cents but you have made enough money on this question already. The only thing I will say is that you can not make someone into something they are not and expect them to be able to maintain it. They will either feel trapped or will eventually revert to nature.

Personally…..who wants someone who is not true to themselves?

I didn’t read the responses, so I may say something someone else has.

IMO, it is the Dom’s responsibility to ensure that s/he is consistent to keeping up their roles and rules. It is not, again IMO, the sub’s job to encourage the Dom to keep their own rules.

I have been guilty of this in the past, and it is something that I am working on, regarding the consistency thing. I know that while I do pride myself as a good dominant on a lot of areas, that is my one failing, which I consistently try to improve upon.

If a Dom allows their sub to wiggle out of punishments or chores, then my guess is not so much that it’s a sub in Dom clothing, but a Dom who is not fully comfortable with their Dominance, again, an issue I used to have.

I think there are a lot of Dominants out there who really just want to have fun, get their rocks off, and bask in their own glory about it, but don’t want to do the other work. Because that isn’t fun. Or they aren’t creative enough. Or maybe they are just lazy.

I’ve been thinking of a way to make a post similar to this for quite some time…I just couldn’t figure out how to word it to get my questions/points across.

First off I agree with the 200% thing (of course I agree with that in vanilla relationships also).

Second…I’ve been around long enough to see all sides of the spectrum. One of the longest going D/s relationships I’ve witnessed has a Dom who is like ‘If you want to be with me, you’ll submit…’ As in it shouldn’t be a constant power struggle. If they’re *not* submitting (or if they’re acting out) then obviously they don’t want to be in a relationship with him b/c they know what his rules/boundaries/etc are and if they’re not abiding by them, then she’s not worth his time. (Of course I could go all sorts of snarky on the other parts of the relationship, but I’ll save that comment for another post)

And then there are the submissives I’ve seen…those who are like “If you want my submission you’re gonna have to beat it out of me….constantly” I see that and I can’t help but feel bad for the Dom. For fucks sake you submitted once leave it alone. I don’t think that the Dom should have to *always* be exerting control…the submissive *does* have a job to do and that’s to submit, not fight 24/7. I can’t even imagine having to Dom someone who’s sole desire is to fight control. I know there are masochistic Dominants and I can’t help but think that’s what this brand of sub actually is. They want to be in control of the when/where/how of punishment…they want to be “forced” to do everything…they’re constantly talking about how no one is “strong enough” to Dom them. Of course I don’t think it’s about being “strong enough”, I think it’s about any Dom worth his salt not wanting to be someone’s puppet on a string.

I don’t know, I think it’s different for everyone - I’ve certainly had my moments of fighting, and I’ve had my moments of submitting to someone who Was. Not. Doing. It. My. Way. and it sometimes takes me stepping back and consciously admitting that I have a responsibility to submit, just as much as He has a responsibility to control and I think that’s the bottom line. A lot of subs think that being in the lifestyle means having no responsibility, when in fact it’s quite the opposite. I also think a lot of Doms think once they get the reins they can set them off to the side and the sub isn’t going to stray outside of those boundaries and that’s usually not the case either. It’s all a balancing act and sometimes it works and sometimes it sucks, and really all we can hope for is finding someone who is willing to stick with us through all the highs and lows, ya know?

Of course I feel like you’ve been reading through MY blog. Lol. Krista’s right when she says submissive’s think it’s all about them.

Anyway.

Some weeks ago I came to my Husband all in tears, explaining to him that I didn’t know wether he was ordering me when he asks nicely or not. He smiled at me and asked: “Well, which makes you happy?”

I wanted to stomp my foot! This is not how it works, you bastard! You’re SUPPOSED to tell me that it’s an order and that what you say is law, darn me if I go against you and be all Master-y, the way people are on TSR! That’s the RIGHT way to do things, you mean person, ALL OTHER OWNERS ARE!

(Translation: The other kiddes have toy cars, I want one too!)

But screw me. It’s not about what I want, not one jota. He wants me to do what makes me happy, so I do. (It’s not MY fault he’s got this ownership thing the wrong way around though.)

I’m a service submissive. My place is to serve, unasked and sometimes unthanked, to make his life comfortable. If he wanted to control me, if he wanted to make all minute choises and punish me, he would. Frankly, he considers that raising children and he never wants children.

So I am to obey. Obey or our lives turn upside down in the chaos I create when attempting to lead (or even co-lead). I obey, because that is the structure of our relationship.

I’m not given rules and routines and rituals. I have to do without (*pout*), because His Royal Owner-s-ness doesn’t like them. I don’t get collared or tattoo’d, because he doesn’t get the point.

I do however live after a ton of his preferances.

Recently I put it like this: When he thinks of doing something, he takes my opinion into consideration, but sometimes goes against it anyway. I cannot imagine not taking his into consideration and NOT acting in accordance with IT.

Well, ramble over.

I’m looking into making that paddle … for you. I’m not that much of a painslut, but I want to make it and see it used. So your Owner gets it, as a belated birthday present. Won’t he be all happy now?

How’s it going now that your other dauther (sorry, I’m terrible with names) is living with you again?

I would say that it might be more than a simply binary situation. I don’t approve of weaseling - I think that behavior should have ended in middle school. On the other hand - I’m not submitting to someone without knowing he’s stronger - which means testing to me is appropriate. So her behavior (depending on the context and unless I was riding around in her head I’d have a hard time saying one way or another for sure) might be appropriate and might not.

For the Dom - I think that there’s a couple of options. One is, he might just not be OCD. I have to admit, to a certain extent, that to me OCD can be a good thing in a Dominant because there’s no room for forgetfulness or “escape”. But OCD only in watching for rules and such and not being crazy over the rest of life is kind of hard to find. So then it could be a matter of degree. I am scatterbrained often and on the strangest of things - G is not. He’s nowhere close to OCD, but he’s still more attentive than me - so that works. It might be that she’s more attentive than him, and that’s the wrong imbalance or a mismatch in their relationship.

The other thing goes back to “behavior that should have ended in middle school.” And that is - if he’s going to be a Dom, he has to suck up the responsibility for his actions and decisions. She needs to not act like a manipulative child, and he needs to not act like a forgetful teenager. He also needs to know that a relationship is not an inanimate thing. He has to continually feed it - by enforcing things, by changing them, by continually being aware and checking in - just like she does. I do know some Doms that think once they’ve gained that control - they’re done. In my world, once you stop paying attention to holding that control - you’re done and I’m gone. (well, ok, I wish it was that simple - my relationship also has love holding it together but it’s still a point.)

I don’t actually think any of this suggests submission on his part though. He may not be Dominant (who knows for sure) but there’s the whole egalitarian-preference in the middle before moving onto submissive.

Waffling might be a symptom of any number of different problems. Some of those can be fundamental incompatibilities. Others might be easily resolvable.

My impulse, when I hear about someone failing to enforce a rule he’s set, is to think that he doesn’t really care about that rule and shouldn’t have imposed it in the first place. Especially for newer doms, there’s going to be a tendency to make all kinds of rules because you think you’re supposed to or everyone does or they sounded cool in that book you like or because the sub is begging for “more structure”. But then it turns out that you’re not personally motivated to monitor and enforce those rules because they’re not about things that actually matter to you on a personal level.

There’s a great story about a newly commissioned lieutenant’s first day as an officer. His captain says “you’re on your own for the first half of the day, but I’ll be accompanying you to monitor your activities.” And the captain just takes notes as the new lieutenant wanders around the base giving orders left and right. Then after lunch, the captain hands the lieutenant a 5-page list of all the orders he gave in the first half of the day and says “now go back and make sure it all got done.” With the lesson of the story being that you shouldn’t be giving an order that you don’t care enough about to follow up on.

So, to an extent, that is indeed the dom’s problem to fix… but it’s a normal part of the learning curve, and not something that reflects any real problems unless he repeatedly refuses to learn that lesson.

You need to back-up one more step: if one of the couple in unenthusiastic about playing power games, should the couple be playing them? If you were to ask ten random people one the street your question at least eight are going to tell you that couples should not be playing power games (and a few of these ten would make a hasty retreat not wanting to be around a person who would ask such a question)

If a Dom is not into it one of three things will normally need to happen, a break-up, the sub going outside of the relationship to play, or the sub making do with-out being able to play.

i think if the dom can’t be a dom for their sub, that perhaps they’re not a well-matched couple. perhaps he needs a sub who doesn’t push him much and is more obedient.

or perhaps he really is more of a sub himself. which is a very valid possibility.

The way M explained it at to me at some point was something like this — At times he felt like he hadn’t “earned the right” to dom me around because he hadn’t played with me or whatever. It made him feel like he wasn’t keeping up his end of the deal, so he couldn’t order me around or hold me to rules or the like. It was really hard for him to internalize (no matter how much he knew intellectually) that being held to certain expectations & rules was what I needed most.

There’s more to it than that, of course. A sub that’s constantly weasling wears him down, makes it not fun & turns it into work. Doms get tired & inattentive too, blah blah.

Waffling and/or weaseling happen to a certain extent in all relationships on both sides. Sometimes we’re just not in the mood or tired or lazy or whatever. I think it’s a given for it to happen occasionally and nothing to worry about.

What does worry me is when there is *only* waffling and/or weaseling because a relationship in that situation is going to fail, 100%.

Personally I think it’s the dom’s responsibility to pull the relationship back from the brink of disaster. I mean, you can’t submit if there is nothing to submit to. I would even go as far to say that there is no submission without dominance (and vice-versa)so the sub really does have their hands tied if their dom is fucking things up. I don’t think moves by the sub will get them anywhere. Of course, if the sub is fucking things up and being bratty and weaseling all the time and whatnot then it’s pretty hard to be dominant because that’s not really being *submissive* in my books.

A dom who is too lazy to give a toss about their sub is not really a dom. I’ve been there and done that and despite me trying everything that I could to make it work and ‘leading’ the play by suggesting and having discussions about rules etc., I got nowhere. I know it doesn’t work.

I think a lot of people tend to generally be in love with the idea of being a dom (or a sub) and when the hard work starts, back waaaaay off. A lot of people are also only into kinky sex and get confused that that means they are a sub or a dom or whatever. Just because you like tying someone up (or being tied up) doesn’t make you anything other than a person who likes tying people up.

Ok…I’ll stop there…lol. Great topic and great post…as always.

k

Kaya,

There are a lot of possibilities for what’s going on, and many of them have been adressed by previous commentors. One that ocurs to me is this, a variation on the dominant trying to go beyond their comfort zone. If this is a relationship where the two are deeply in love with one another, the Dom may be trying to meet a precieved need on the part of the sub. When we love soneone, we are willing to sacrifice and give of ourselves. In this Dom’s case, that sacrifice may well be to be more dominant than he is comfortable with. It’s an act of love that he’s trying to balance on an ongoing basis. When the sub tries to weasel, the Dom take sthis as a sign that the level of control doesn’t need to be that great.

So what’s going wrong, if this is the case? A fundemental lack of cpmmunication is one possibility (a strong one IMHO). It may well be the sub is one who needs the boundries and rules to be very “visible” and pushes them in the hopes that they will push back. The Dom, on the other hand, doesn’t know this and responds to the push by easing up, just what the sub doesn’t want or need. If this is the case, the two need to sit down and talk. Furthermore, only the sub in this case knows the problem, so she must take the innitiative in this case to sit him doan and tell him that she needs the wall to hurt when she hits it.

I believe that dominating beyond one’s comfort zone is very possible, if it happens in love, but the Dom needs to have a very clear idea of just what is wanted and needed. Some people struggle against the ropes, not because they want to get free, but becauset they wasnt to KNOW that they can’t get free. Similarly, some people test the rules, not to get away with breaking them, but to KNOW that they can’t get away with it.

I’ve actually had time to think about this subject, as one of my current stories looks at just this idea of someone having to dominate a loved one beyond thier comfort zone (in this case, a sub having to dominate out of love for their life partner).

Dave

I believe it’s the latter, the Dom is actually a sub in Dom’s clothes. But sometimes a Dom just needs to reconnect with his role and after putting up with enough of the subs crap he will step up and put her back in her place. Early in my roll with bootsie I found myself doing just this, giving in, putting off punishments and just basically letting her control the relationship…then I woke up one day and realized I wasn’t the Dom in this relationship and unfortunatly for bootsie I put both feet down (up her ass) and put her back in her place, she’s been there ever since. I’ll never let her forget her role in this relationship, it’s been a little hard on her and sometimes hard on me. But as a learning Master and her a learning sub, limits will be pushed and boundaries tested but at the end of the day your true roles will surface and I found I was truly the Master/Dom of this relationship. bootsie found that she is the sub even though she tries to push the limits sometimes but shes not happy when she’s not under Masters control.
It’s nice to have this subject brought to the forefront, it reminds us of our roles and our stations in our relationships.
Master OF slave bootsie

Truly fascinating dialog here and some very valid and concrete opinions are made from all over the board. You always come up with the intriguing conversations… and the only bit that i am going to add is that i’m so mentally suave and manipulative that unless a Dom (my Owner) is super strong and Dominant, i could never submit to my full extent. Luckily we don’t have that problem. There is no waffling with DL. (nervous little chuckle)

i haven’t been beat in so long the next one is going to completely eff me up.

But to add to this interesting dialog, i honestly think waffling is okay (not for me) and i don’t think waffling is a sign of a “bad” Dom. i think we all lose our ways here and there, we all need a break, a D/s vacation so things stay a bit fresh, and we all have the instinct to try different roles. Hence why so many of us submissive women fantasize about the forced sex/rape thing.

After all, you can’t rape the submisisvely willing, can you?
Similarly, a Dom may drop the ball here and there. i do not think that it makes him an awful Dom on a single or few instances. Both roles have a responsibility and what can aide this is communication. Both parties should be able to freely speak about this- why, and fix it.

Of course, this is just my humbled opinion. i am not elite or versed in any one thing. i’m still, honestly, a novice.

Thanks for this discussion!!

God, you have the best discussions on the net around this sort of issue..

i learn something new every time i visit here. Lot’s of great insight here and honestly did open my eyes to different ways of viewing a sensitive subject.

For me, if things are not consistent, i tend to freak out and push it further because i am scared. That may be childish, but true. Beyond, the service aspect of O/our dynamic, slavery offers me safety, emotionally. But that is ME..

Which brings me to a question i woke up thinking about…i read a post on a Dom’s blog..sorry can’t remember who’s…that put forth the opinion that there was no such thing as a service slave. That all M/s relationships were inherently “Quid Pro Quo”…you do something for me and i’ll do something for you. That has really had me twisting since i read it.

What do you think, oh queen of the slaves…or the new Oprah of the ‘net!

~s/nik

<blockquote cite =”Which brings me to a question i woke up thinking about…i read a post on a Dom’s blog..sorry can’t remember who’s…that put forth the opinion that there was no such thing as a service slave. That all M/s relationships were inherently “Quid Pro Quo”…you do something for me and i’ll do something for you.”

I so totally disagree that I had to really think about it to respond…I actually wanted to respond directly to you, but didn’t see a way to do that.

As a service submissive, I fill the roles of maid, housekeeper, office assistant, nurse, body servant, and just a general sort of gofer. I take care of mundane details so that Beloved doesn’t have to think about them. Most of the time, there isn’t any thanks or direct recognition. I don’t get thanked for remembering to take out the trash or to pay the bills on time. He generally isn’t even aware of it. He is above those concerns.

The mindset is in doing an excellent job, to be available when needed for any task, from cooking gourmet meals to cleaning the fish tank and anything in between so to speak. I sort of liken it to being the devoted servant…always at the ready… always prepared…totally dedicated to the job regardless of what it is. What appeals to me is the sense of accomplishment and goodness in serving. It gives me joy and renews my willingness to continue when I’m tired and flagging. There is no punishment or discipline…just service.

Yes, I also am Beloved’s pet and sex slave, when he desires such of me. As much as we would both be amused by my role of the odalisque, financially, it’s impossible. So, during the day, I offer my submission through service.

“Which brings me to a question i woke up thinking about…i read a post on a Dom’s blog..sorry can’t remember who’s…that put forth the opinion that there was no such thing as a service slave. That all M/s relationships were inherently “Quid Pro Quo”…you do something for me and i’ll do something for you.”

I so totally disagree that I had to really think about it to respond…I actually wanted to respond directly to you, but didn’t see a way to do that.

As a service submissive, I fill the roles of maid, housekeeper, office assistant, nurse, body servant, and just a general sort of gofer. I take care of mundane details so that Beloved doesn’t have to think about them. Most of the time, there isn’t any thanks or direct recognition. I don’t get thanked for remembering to take out the trash or to pay the bills on time. He generally isn’t even aware of it. He is above those concerns.

The mindset is in doing an excellent job, to be available when needed for any task, from cooking gourmet meals to cleaning the fish tank and anything in between so to speak. I sort of liken it to being the devoted servant…always at the ready… always prepared…totally dedicated to the job regardless of what it is. What appeals to me is the sense of accomplishment and goodness in serving. It gives me joy and renews my willingness to continue when I’m tired and flagging. There is no punishment or discipline…just service.

Yes, I also am Beloved’s pet and sex slave, when he desires such of me. As much as we would both be amused by my role of the odalisque, financially, it’s impossible. So, during the day, I offer my submission through service.

I really want to answer this… but it has to wait till I get home. I’m only on lunch

*puts on her Terminator sunglasses* I’ll be back!!

I think taking into account the Dom’s experience level here is important as well. I’ve noticed a lot more waffling of inexperienced Dom’s who are still working through the ‘it’s ok to be the boss, to hit, etc’ phase. It’s hard for them at the beginning, in those cases patience is important on the side of the weasel er submissive.

I am not sure if I am thinking of the same thread on TSR that may have triggered this post or the concepts behind it but if I am the Domme who became a slave was 21 or something.

I’d agree with that–the top’s experience level is critical. It takes a lot more experience to build up security and confidence than just a few rolls in the ropes.

That also has a real downside, in that attempting to communicate one’s needs as a submissive is all to easy to read, from the inexperienced dominant’s perspective, as “is that topping from the bottom?? I was warned about that!” and then, when they get it entirely wrong, hurts their confidence-dominance even more.

takes finesse.

Okay… if we’re talking just dom and sub and not master and slave then, from where I sit, the sub can be as weaselly as she wants and the dom can waffle on whatever he wants. That’s where the distinction between master and dom, sub and slave lies. However, if they want to change it the burden lies with both of them to get in their roles and stay in them. While it may take drastic measures on the dom’s part to get the sub to actually wake up and pay attention, the sub should position herself to be receptive.

In a Master/slave relationship? The burden lies with the slave. A master is free to do pretty much whatever the hell he wants. Including waffle. Before, during and after training. Granted it’s probably better to be consistent and not always give in at least in the beginning while building the foundation of the slave’s training, he really doesn’t have to. It’s the master’s responsibility to train the slave in the way most pleasing to him. It is her responsibility to remain in her place.

damm, i have this bog linked to LJ and each time i have gone back, only my reply is there, so i came here and lo and behold 40 replies…teach me not to come here and reply which i will do in future….

i think its part laziness, part icantbefuckedness and part lack of experience..o also think its more of a vanilla relationship than one of D/s.

oops that anonymous post is from me, carinastarr, lol..

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