On Religion
I don’t remember if I’ve posted here about my views on religion with M/s. I talk so much that I forget where I’ve already babbled but it didn’t come up in a search so maybe I haven’t.
A(nother) thread on FL brought this up. The original question asked was, I think, wanting to know if a slave has religious practices that trump the Master’s wishes, then isn’t that person in fact a submissive and not a slave by sheer fact that she’s not surrending total authority to the Master. Or something like that.
For instance, if she cannot change worship times to suit the Master’s schedule or will not engage in some kinky practices due to her religious beliefs, is she then unable to be a fully committed slave?
Well. So. I have weird ideas about M/s and religion. And my reply was kind of off topic to the question on FL so Imma drag it over here.
For me, if religion were important to Master, and I had opposing religious beliefs – I don’t think I could belong to him.
Because if I believed something different than he did, then he would, necessarily, have to be wrong. And if I believed him to be wrong about something as important as the eternal damnation of my soul, I don’t think I could muster up the trust to believe in him about how he wants to be shaping my head and my thoughts.
As it stands, I’m a half-hearted agnostic leaning toward atheism and he’s a non-practicing baptist. Luckily for me, so far, he leans toward my side of the fence.
But if he chooses to become a devout practictioner of his religion, I’d have to believe that he knows what is true, and follow his faith accordingly. I would HAVE to find a way to believe what he believes. Not pretend to believe, not obediently go to church and mumble the words. I would have to accept what he accepts as truth.
And if HE truly believed in his religion, wouldn’t he also prefer that my soul rest with his for all of eternity and insist that I convert? If he believes in his faith and his choice of God, believes it to be the correct worship of God’s will, how would he justify sitting back quietly and allowing me to incorrectly worship – or not worship at all?
If he didn’t care about my soul, then I would logically conclude that he doesn’t care about my afterlife, therefore he also must not care about my current life.
I’m not seeing how people with two differing religions do M/s. Hell, I can’t see how they do vanilla for that matter. This isn’t just a difference of opinion. Religion is what you believe happens to your eternal soul, it’s not a debate on who’s the best man for president.
If I were the religious one and I truly believed that to NOT believe as I did meant that my loved ones were therefore condemned to an eternal life of hardship, I’d do everything in my power to convert them, to save them from that. Because I love them.
Doesn’t that necessarily mean that if someone doesn’t, they don’t care enough? And if they don’t care enough, how can you submit to them?
Or am I way out in left field?
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Uncategorized | kaya | 
Thursday February 19th, 2009 12:30pm
I would just like to say that a lot of times when people talk about “religion”, they are really talking about Christianity – and sometimes Judaism and Islam. Religion is much more than that, and there are several religions that don’t believe in hell and damnation, and thus have no problem with other people not believing in what they believe in. Some religious views even claim that all religions are in essence the same, so it doesn’t really matter what you devote yourself to.
So therefore I would say that what kind of difficulties this will rise in any relationship – vanilla or M/s – depends on what kind of religion we are talking about.
For the purposes of this question, I’d say whatever religions clash – where one party believes the other is damned for eternity.
If the two religions are compatible, I can’t see where there would be any conflict or sense of urgency to convert the other.
I think you’re right on target. Penn Gillette (an atheist) had a blog piece up somewhere in which he was discussing that if you have reglious faith, and you believe that unbelievers are going to hell, and you care about them, then must proseltize them.
The issue is that what many people call “faith” is really only opinion. And its impolite to force your opinions onto someone.
But if someone really believes, then the loving thing to do is just what you’ve described; try to convert those you love.
Except that for those who believe it, it’s not opinion. It’s *fact*.
To them.
I can see both sides, which is why I take the coward’s easy way out and remain an agnostic. ;-)
I have to agree with the above comment: chances are, if we’re talking a christian and a non-christian, then there’s going to be clashing because, generally speaking, practicing christians want to “save” all non-christians, and non-christians don’t give a shit.
however, truth be told, i don’t understand most religions anyway, so i don’t understand why it’s so important in the first place.
“generally speaking, practicing christians want to “save” all non-christians, and non-christians don’t give a shit”
Sounds like me and my mother..lol
Master’s a Buddhist, kind of, and I, however, am a licensed pagan (Psylo branch) priestess.
Luckily, for Master and I, we have….similar views on things, though they may occasionally be skewed. One of the few things we don’t agree on is drinking: He would like to occasionally, but won’t, as I preach against it. (Not that I really preach. I’m more of a couch priestess than anything. And the ordination looks REALLY good on a resume)
The thing I like best about Paganism, is it can be tailored. I believe, yes, there is a higher power, but a single male one doesn’t compute in my head. So there has to be both. And while I might be a priestess while Master is just himself, I submit to him as I would the gods, because he is above me. Hm. I may have to write a post on this. (eventually, as I have like 5 queued up.)
I look forward to reading it!
You know – I couldn’t agree with you more on this topic – and for me this is as much a factor in the vanilla world as in the M/s world. My Master and I are an interracial couple and, having been together more then twenty years, we faced many years where people were less than gracious about our relationship. However I have always maintained that skin color and ethnicity are much easier to overcome than religious differences would be. I can learn to like different foods – I can’t change the fundamental belief system that shaped me. (We are both A&P Catholics).
EmmyBlue
Agreed. :-)
I always wonder about these type of questions.. Wouldn’t you get into the fact of religious beliefs and practices BEFORE you placed that collar around their neck? Or any of the other view clashes that people can dream up.
I am a pagan — i believe in the forces of nature and power of will.. Sir on the other hand is a very strong atheist. I swear peoples heads nearly explode when they find out that he is a “non-believer” and I seem to be so spiritually grounded. How do we reconcile that?
Thankfully, Sir does not believe in forcing me to his side. We have many interesting conversations about our views and beliefs and while we agree to disagree on some, others have pushed me to grow. The best way i can explain to others is that his faith is based in science, and mine coincides with science.
Could I surrender to a fundie religious dom — hell no! But I would also probably not be in the same circle as said dom. For me, this is true with being with a nilla fundie religious man. I could not do it. There would more than likely be way much of my defence of my beliefs, and his trying to push his on me.
And for me religion is not about what happens to your eternal soul, so perhaps that is why we get on so well about it. There is no need for me to convert and save him, even though I love him. He, not only as Sir, but as a human, has the right to exercise his free will to believe or not believe. I don’t get the need to convert and save anyone, but that is why I don’t identify with the religious sects that do believe in damnation of the soul for not following the dogma of the sect.
I don’t view their lack of trying to save my soul as a lack of caring, more a respect of my beliefs. So to me they actually do care enough to respect me and my beliefs. Even tho i submit, i submit to those that respect me as a person, before degrading me as a bottom. :)
I had one gentleman that we were getting to know each other and he was pagan. Very fundie Wiccan at that.. I couldn’t even play with him because he was to busy trying to state that his views were correct because he was DOM and I should change my way of worship and devotional to match his.. and they went against everything that made up the core of my beliefs..
“I am a pagan — i believe in the forces of nature and power of will.. Sir on the other hand is a very strong atheist.”
If your beliefs were switched, would you anticipate that he *would* try to force (or convince, maybe force is the wrong word), so would you anticipate that he would try to convince you to join his chosen religion?
I can see where having religions that wouldn’t end up with one person in purgatory while the other lounged in heaven would calm any argument. ;-)
I cannot honestly answer your question. I know that personally for myself, I could never be an atheist. I have a faith in the divine that is our natrual world, that has touched my life in so many ways, that i cannot help but to believe in this power greater unto myself.
If he suddenly found religion and began forcing me to convert to his way, if it was such a clash with my core set of beliefs that it left us at odds to the point where we were both saying your belief is wrong, it would dissolve our relationship. Just like if he suddenly decided that sex with kids was ok, or to become a super radical political party that was in total opposition to my own political ideas.(Heck, he is a Libertarian, you don’t get much radical than that!) These things to me are wrong, and yeah, if he was to become wrong, i could no longer yield.
As an example, Sir is also a transhumanist. Basically, his belief is that technology can and will improve the human condition. A recent discussion that left me feeling kinda icky was the idea of growing meat for human consumption in a petri dish. YUCK!!!!! But, thankfully, Sir wants me to understand only, how this could be beneficial to society as a whole, and not accept it into my paradigm. It was a very heated debate, and yes, I was very close to uttering the words your wrong, but looking back at, he isn’t wrong – his idea is different from mine. We agree to disagree.
Now, if this does become a reality (growing meat tissue in a petri dish for consumption) and he rules that is all we can eat in this house.. he knows that i cannot and will not yield to that.
I think I am lucky that he wants me to understand where he is coming from rather than accept it on it’s whole because he is top and i am bottom.
I’ve never heard of a religion where it cannot easily fit with slavery. Hell, even Islam, which requires a number of prayers a day, can forgo the prayers at the normal times if they can be said later. And I imagine any decent Master, whether he believed in his/her slave’s beliefs or not, would be willing to accomodate. If not…then I doubt a relationship would form anyway.
I agree. That’s something that would hopefully be talked about beforehand. Although, that doesn’t guarantee that the slave, or the Master, won’t change religious beliefs.
I guess I can see the original poster’s point in the thread on FL. I can see how a slave’s choice of worship could interfere with slavery – especially if the Master wasn’t the flexible type (or the sharing type. I sometimes think that a devoutly religious slave is serving two masters).
Sometimes a devoutly religious slave (at least female) falls right in line with religion, namely Judeo-Christianity where a woman must obey her husband AND God.
At the same time, though, such a conundrum (religion vs. relationship) is hardly uncommon and it happens in normal relationships a lot. Hardly unique to TPE relationships, and not unlike ‘nilla relationships, it can end the partnership.
When we got together, I was a practicing Wiccan (and fifteen… ahem). This was way before we became M/s, but within six months, Master had changed my religion.
At the moment, I’m looking at possibly converting to islam. Insh’allah, Master wont mind. However, if he does, I will drop it. My personal belief is that there are souls and oversouls (angels if you like), and there must somewhere be a begining to this set, something that enxompasses All That Is. All That Is, for me, is God. I call All that is God. I’m looking at what religion works with my beliefs, and what different religions are.
Meanwhile: Yay Seth and Yay for Jane Roberts. Those books are *awsome*.
Master doesn’t seem to mind, as long as it doesn’t disturb him or give me views and beliefs he doesn’t want me to have. To that point, faith is “personal”.
Been thinking on this exact subject for a while… Dunno what to say right now, though… :/
“Master doesn’t seem to mind, as long as it doesn’t disturb him or give me views and beliefs he doesn’t want me to have.”
And that makes total sense to me.
If I can ask, what religion is he, if any?
He’s agnostic, at the moment. I say “at the moment”, because he’s rather spiritual, but in a very very personal way that I’m not privy to. I also say “at the moment” because his beliefs have changed a few times during the past few years, from LaVey satanism to metaphysics to agnostic.
Generally I’d say, he believes in the metaphysical ideas of Seth, as related by Jane Roberts. :)
Tomorrow is my first fridayprayer (Jummah) and I’m seriously nervous!
I’m so lucky that my Master and I have very similar views, because I couldn’t even be in a vanilla relationship with someone who devoutly believed in “God” as a old white dude with a beard who voyeuristic-ally peeks into bedrooms and private thoughts.
My Master’s agnostic, and was raised Church Of England, so he has sort of warm fuzzy feelings about Christianity, but he’s too much the scientist to get worked up about whether God is tripartite, and if the host becomes flesh or just stays a Styrofoam-tasting cracker.
I’m Buddhist, and was raised supposedly open to any religion, but my Mom hates Christianity (as only a Wiccan who gets upset about “The Burning Times” can) and of course it rubbed off on me. I was very negative about Christianity for a long time, until I made friends with some people who devoutly believed and yet were still demonstrably good people.
My Master and I have had some small discussions where it became clear that we weren’t entirely in agreement about Christianity … and so I shook my head clear of pre-conceived notions and tried to look at Christianity afresh.
It helped that we got married in the old traditional C-of-E ceremony (which was wonderful and beautiful), and that the vicar is a wonderful guy, and that every sermon I’ve heard from him has aligned entirely with my Buddhist philosophies … so I can be all very positive about those experiences. After the wedding, I was so fired-up about it, that I tried re-reading the New Testament and that was an abysmal FAIL (I got very annoyed with it all!) … so I’m staying away from anything specific and just thinking in very vague, general terms about Christianity.
When the topics come up, I hold my mind as open as possible and subsume (is that the right word?) my opinions to my Master’s, and that works okay for us. And thank any God/thing you believe in for that!
But if he were a devout Baptist or Muslim, or an Orthodox Jew, we just wouldn’t have worked, even, as you point out, as a vanilla couple.
I’ve also had this topic on the brain for a long while … maybe we should all have a round-table discussion!
Like the knights of the round table *nods wisely*
I admit I’m fairly ignorant of different religions. I know christianity because that’s how I was raised, though very much NOT of the ‘warm fuzzy’ type.
I can see how it would work (I think) if each person’s religion, regardless of worshipping differences, ultimately would land them in the same “eternal everafter”. For instance, while I’m not *sure* of it, I’m guessing that if I were Methodist and Master remained Baptist, we’d probably both end up in heaven.
(maybe. we sin a lot though, :D)
Definitely can’t see it working with, say, Orthodox Jew and Catholic.
But what I really can’t figure out, and what I think I maybe glossed over in the post, is even if the religions are “compatible”, how does one work their way around having to believe that HIS religion is wrong? Because, if you (generic you) believe in your own religion (and of course you would or you wouldn’t have/do it, right?) then his *has* to be the wrong one.
And it’s not that I think Masters have to never be wrong, but something of this magnitude, this importance, if I believed him to be wrong – I just can’t fathom having the trust to submit to anything beyond what we’re having for dinner.
Also, for whatever reason, it totally makes sense to me that the Master can be an agnostic/atheist while the slave worships whatever/whenever. I don’t even see that as a conflict. Does that make sense? Complete double standard, I know.
As a nilla reader I can’t really comment on how religion affects d/s but I did find your example of orthodox jew and catholic interesting because that is my exact situation… im a catholic married to an orthodox jew
Some issues of course. Our wedding was one. We had a non religious ceremony of course to keep it neutral but I don’t think either of our families were all that happy that there wasn’t some religious ceremony involved
What to tell our kids was another issue. We decided that the best way to go about it was to get them involved in both religions so they go along to mummy’s church sometimes and daddy’s church other times. We also try to teach them about other religions so they understand why people believe in the things they do. Ultimately I don’t care if they become catholic, jewish, islamic or scientologist. I don’t try and control what my friends or workmates believe so I don’t see why I should force that on the kids
And as for the whole eternal damnation of the soul business… I find the best way to get around that is to simply trust that my God would never send a good man (ie. my husband) to that fate – if I thought he would then I wouldn’t be able to believe in catholicism in the first place
Does your husband’s faith allow him the same trust in God for *your* eternal soul?
I’m genuinely curious how it works. I am incredibly ignorant of religious practices and beliefs (obviously).
His faith, as in the wider jewish faith, doesn’t really allow for that trust, but then neither does mine… we’ve both taken the line that sometimes you need to make your own decisions about what you do and don’t believe in.
When you think about we both believe in the same God anyway :)
kaya — when you are cute like that I just want to give you a hug, or at least smile and reach over and touch your arm or something, and it really *sucks* we are so far apart — so stop being so damn cute, okay?! ;)
Happily for me, Buddhism is a philosophy, not a religion (in general, although there are versions of Buddhism that you can turn into a religion if you want one, which happily I don’t!) so I can be a Buddhist *and* also be a Christian or Jew or Hindu or Satanist — it’s all good!
I’m not surprised you have that double standard, and it makes total sense in “kaya-think.” When you equate your Master with “God,” as I know you do at least in part with Master S., it does make that matter of religion so much the harder! ;) (Seriously, I am the same way with my Master, so it has put me through some rough moments of thinking I must change my beliefs to suit his. The thing that has made it easier is that *he* doesn’t have a problem with the situation, and one of my personal goals as a slave is not to create problems, or make mountains out of molehills!)
I think the problem you are having is that you were raised Methodist (I’m assuming this from your reply, apologies if I misread) and that religion is very much “us vs. them.” You can either be one of the Right-Thinking Us, or the Going-To-Burn-In-Fires-Of-Hell Them, and there is no room for shades of grey.
But many other religions do not have “a jealous God” (Deut. 6:15) and they think there are other ways to heaven than just one. (And, BTW, DON’T assume Methodists or Baptists are going to go to the same heaven at all! Do you have any idea how many Christians have been killed by other Christians for not believing *exactly* the same creed? For an example, I give you the fabulous word: defenestration — [and note this page is written by a Christian!] )
Anyway, I’ve wandered off my point. Hindus will happily share the spiritual world with anyone, because they don’t think their Gods are the only ones. Muslims used to be known for being very tolerant conquerors who would leave the local religions in peace (an idea they probably got from the Romans, who never forced Jove or Minerva or Diana upon anyone!) And with Jews, they don’t want *just anyone* to join in being the Chosen People — you have to do some serious studying to become Jewish: I have a friend who is converting, and he’s putting a great deal of effort into it!
For people of more tolerant religions, since there isn’t only one route (Route 66?) to heaven, there isn’t the problem of needing to convert a partner so that they won’t spend eternity getting to know Fire and Brimstone very intimately.
As to where everyone is going to end up after death, I think most people assume that their Deity is going to sort things out and take care of them, so they end up with the ones they love. Of course, since I don’t believe in an afterlife, I’m not the best person to ask on the matter! (A really good book that covers everything we’re discussing is Job: A Comedy of Justice by Robert A. Heinlein)
Hmmm, I’m rambling again. Any points in the above you want to discuss, or have I talked this to death?
just lurking here, but I did want to voice to Zille Defeu that the Methodist church of old was very restrictive as you have described it, but the Methodist church of today is very open to all be they alternative type relationships, beliefs etc. They do not care if you are Methodist or not, straight or not, all are welcome to stay, worship, take communion etc… But, then I’m in California, and perhaps the Methodist churches out in the Heartland are still stuck in their narrow viewpoints.
I am a practicing Methodist, my husband is practicing sleeping in on Sundays, but we have a shared background in the Methodist/Presbyterian faith, and can relate.
I had a Catholic boyfriend once, and his mother did not like me, for only the fact that I was not Catholic.. My grandmother who was Catholic, was at one point excommunicated from the Catholic church, because she married a Protestant, my Methodist Grandfather… funnily enough, when she died, that was no longer a sin in the Catholic church, and she could have Last Rites… I have no love for the Catholic Church, and think they have caused more damage throughout history then any religion.
Not to hijack kaya’s post, here, but to the anonymous lurker, I didn’t say that the modern Methodist church was a hate-mongering and intolerant group — although I can see how it could be taken that way — sorry!
It’s the extremists in any religion who cause the damage and distress to people (even sometimes followers of that religion!) But pretty much any religion that lasts long enough gets past the over-enthusiastic zealot period and mellows out to the “church bingo nights” stage. When religions go all mellow, that’s when they are best for people, because what people need from religion is comforting and community and being given a sense of security in this big, cold, scary world. What people do NOT need is any encouraging of the “us vs. them” tendencies that all people have, left over from our cave-dwelling ancestors.
Not all Catholics are bad (I have a friend who is Catholic and is also a kinky cross-dresser and appreciator of porn), and not all Methodists are bad, and not all Muslims are bad, and not all Mormons are bad, and not all Satanists are bad — and etc.! And, likewise, not all pagans or Buddhists or whatever are good.
“I have no love for the Catholic Church, and think they have caused more damage throughout history then any religion”
History would be the operative word there. Of course the church has screwed up, look at something like the crusades. But then which religion hasn’t screwed up at one point?
Your comment about methodist churches becoming more open applies very much to the catholic church. The church that your grandmother was excommunicated from was very much in the past – I mean, I married a man who wasn’t even christian and I won’t pretend that everyone in my church approved but there was definitely no open hostility about it or any suggestion that I should be banned from attending
“I think the problem you are having is that you were raised Methodist (I’m assuming this from your reply, apologies if I misread) and that religion is very much “us vs. them.” You can either be one of the Right-Thinking Us, or the Going-To-Burn-In-Fires-Of-Hell Them, and there is no room for shades of grey.”
This. Exactly. This is exactly how I was raised and what I was taught.
Interesting, isn’t it, that in so thoroughly shunning my mother’s beliefs I’ve shunned all religion and lumped them all into the same negative pile. I really need to think on that. I categorically close my mind to religions/ faiths/ beliefs because I cannot come to terms with the whole Going-To-Burn-In-The-Fires-Of-Hell ideology.
But certainly the concept of tolerant religions erases the need to convert.
So, do you then believe that none of them is more “right” than another, or that one is “wrong”? (Wow. I really can’t get past the Right-Way vs. The rest of you that are bound for hell..lol)
“Hmmm, I’m rambling again”
Darling, I ramble incessantly. Please, ramble with me. I feel less alone that way. ;-)
I do have to ask though, since you are MUCH better than Google, if religions are generally tolerant and accepting, then who is it that’s starting all the wars in the name of religion?? Seems like one group is forever trying to wipe out some other group, don’t it?
One of the major issues that tends to be overlooked in conversations like this is that religion and faith are different. That sounds trite, but in practice it gets to the core of the problem. It is typically the religion that creates the notion that if you don’t follow their book of rules, then bad things will happen to you. Faith, by contrast, tends to have a firmer grip on the notion that belief is NOT fact (sorry, Kaya, them’s different things).
For instance, the Christian faith actually contains explicit guidance (i.e. guidance from Christ) as to how to handle the problem of different aspects of belief: it’s called the Parable of the Good Samaritan. It’s easy to understand: righteousness has nothing to do with the mechanics of how you worship, and everything to do with your actions and thoughts, etc.
But if you happen to be a religion, such broad-mindedness is a problem! How can you raised piles of cash and control public policy if your message boils down to a combination of the Golden Rule and “to thine own self be true”? And it is from this economic/political consideration that almost all the “my way or the way to eternal damnation” stuff came from.
So who really gets caught in this (false) dichotomy of “correctness”? The answer is the ideologues, and those who demand literal and complete obedience to The Church (or The Mosque, or The Temple). Those people would not, I feel, typically have any room for our sort of relationship, in much the same way that monks and nuns have had no room for “normal” family relationships, and for the same reasons.
But that group is dwarfed by a larger group of people who want direction; these are the people who might “shop” for a church, who steadfastly insist that the Bible is the literal word of God, instead of the more probable (faith-compatible) understanding that the Bible’s frontispiece should read “The Bible, by God, edited, translated, copied, transcribed and generally mucked about with by tens or hundreds of thousand people with their own agendas, understanding, and diligence”. Those people don’t, I feel, have “faith” so much as “religion”, and as such I suspect problems of incompatibility that you describe are far less intractable than they would have been if they were truly faith-based.
An example: devout Mormons used to avoid caffeine, until it became expedient to support the Church of Jesus Christ and Latter Day Saint’s investment in the CocaCola Company. At which point someone had a vision, and suddenly *cold* caffeinated beverages were OK. Instantly, it became not only appropriate but desirable to do the exact thing that would have led to damnation just moments ago. (And every religion does stupid shit like this, so I’m not picking on the Mormons…)
Summary: profound incompatibilities of faith exist, but are quite rare. Incompatibilities of religion are commonplace, but not really any different from things like incompatible politics!
An afterthought: there are plenty of well-understood cases where love trumps religion. Frequently it is where a child reveals themselves to be gay, and the religion is intolerant enough to make a big deal out of homosexuality. Good people reach a place where they parent and the child each think the other wrong in their belief, but love each other anyway. And there are cases where two clerics work together and respect each other; they may disagree on a lot of dogma, and handle it by each praying for the other.
I’ll close with a profound comment about Christianity from Giovanni Guareschi, who wrote a series of stories about a priest called Don Camillo and a communist mayor called Peppone. In his introduction to his book The Little World of Don Camillo he wrote:
Yeah… what he said!
I would say then that my mother has religion – and not faith. Though she’s as skewed in her understanding of the words as I was.
In fact, she fits quite neatly into most everything you said in the first portion of your comment (which explains a lot for me and points to where the errors of my thinking lie).
I know there are cases where love trumps religion, but I guess the way I was looking at those cases meant that the person who chose love had necessarily rejected their religion – not that they had reached a place of co-existence.
Now it bothers me that I’ve been stuck in that way of thinking. It’s disturbing.
Though I have to say, this business of everyone deciding for themselves, not only what to believe but how to worship and that, *conveniently*, we really can “all just get along” furthers my atheistic tendencies. It is all simply too hokey.
Admittedly, my reaction to THAT needs to be examined as much as my reaction to separating all religions into ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ categories. ;)
Re: Interesting, isn’t it, that in so thoroughly shunning my mother’s beliefs I’ve shunned all religion and lumped them all into the same negative pile. I really need to think on that. I categorically close my mind to religions/ faiths/ beliefs because I cannot come to terms with the whole Going-To-Burn-In-The-Fires-Of-Hell ideology.
Oh, that makes sense. If you think religion is just all close-minded bigotry and “It’s my way, or the Eternal Torment way!” then why would you want to get involved with any of it?! Skip the pain and suffering and just enjoy life — that is not a bad way to go. If you’re not a person with a “God-shaped hole,” (to quote Jean Paul Sartre, who is notably famous for being an Existential atheist!), or with the need for the comforts of being in the church community, then you can get by quite well without it all. You might end up reconsidering when someone you love dies, or some other catastrophe that rocks your foundations, or you may never need to turn to what organized religion has to offer.
So, do you then believe that none of them is more “right” than another, or that one is “wrong”? (Wow. I really can’t get past the Right-Way vs. The rest of you that are bound for hell..lol)
Well, as I say, I was actively raised to hold all religions as equal. If you want my personal feelings on the matter, I think *most* religions are wrong, that they teach people that fuzzy logic is good, and that following orders blindly is fine, and they generally discourage intellectual curiosity, because when you start poking about with an unbiased eye into most religions, they start looking pretty darn silly pretty darn fast!
But I’ve come to this idea by visiting lots of various churches, reading the Bible twice, reading the Bhagavad Gita (Hindu) and a number of Buddhist texts, “The Tao of Pooh” [grins], and the complete works of Anton Szander Lavey (Satanism), more Aleister Crowley (Magic-with-a-”k”) than I could recommend to anyone else, and have studied a number of pagan traditions, the most in depth being Wiccan and Asatru (Norse). As well as knowing the Greek myths backwards and forwards, and — well, you get the picture. I’ve done my homework, and for the most part enjoyed it (Except the church visits. I can get very uncomfortable when people start telling me about my sins, when I know darn well I haven’t sinned. (Good old Anton Lavey says, “The only sin is stupidity,” and while I have a few other things I could add to that, they really are just advanced forms of stupidity. I work very hard not to do stupid things, and when I do I learn from them and don’t repeat them.)
Darling, I ramble incessantly. Please, ramble with me. I feel less alone that way. ;-)
See! Just to make you feel well-companioned I have babbled for paragraphs just now! ;)
I do have to ask though, since you are MUCH better than Google, if religions are generally tolerant and accepting, then who is it that’s starting all the wars in the name of religion?? Seems like one group is forever trying to wipe out some other group, don’t it?
[takes sweeping bow] I may put, “Better than Google!” on my resume! Thank you!
Well, I think my Master (and can’t you *totally* see why he’s the Master for me?!) has cleared much of that question up, but I will add that all religions have phases and also various people follow them in various ways. To take a currently touchy matter, Islam is not having the *zenith* of it’s history right now … but back in the Middle Ages, Christian Europe was sunk in a nasty messy period of ignorance and brutality, and Islam was the shining star where education and civilized society were light years ahead of most of the rest of the world. (This is of course ignoring China/Japan/India, but I really shouldn’t babble too much!)
*People* can’t get along, or at least it ain’t easy for them, and religion can just be another excuse for “Let’s kill those people we don’t like!” Think about the Salem Witch Trials: it’s highly unlikely that even one of the men and women that were killed had the slightest thing to do with witchcraft (either in the Wiccan sense, or in the Pointy-Hat-Broomstick-Get-Powers-From-The-Devil sense) but they were killed in nasty ways (fancy being pressed to death under a bunch of boulders?) and historians looking back on it now have looked at maps and property deeds and figured out that the people who were killed had choice real estate that their neighbours, ahem, “coveted.” Some women were condemned as witches because they wouldn’t put out when the witch-hunter came to town. Some women were killed because they *did* put out.
However, if you get clear-minded, rational, kind and honest people together, then we can indeed have the “Kum ba yah” sing-along time, regardless of exactly what Deity the various people pray to, or where they hope to end up after they leave this mortal coil.
That is where organized religion *could* do good — if it could become a tool of teaching open-mindedness and open-heart-ed-ness, of truly loving thy neighbour (or at least not killing him or doing other bad things to him) and not just the guy next door, but the people in that country over there, who look diff’rnt than us … well, that could be an amazing force for good in this world, and could make a real difference and help us as a whole human race to move forward.
But I don’t think it’s ever gonna happen. Why? Because organized religion can also bring some people money, power, fame — you get the point.
And now see! That’s what you get for inviting me to ramble in your blog! [grin and hug]
Atheistic, or Agnostic?
For me, IF you accept the notion of a god/several gods/add goddesses to suit, THEN you’ve accepted the existence of an unimaginably powerful entity (entities). And I really mean “unimaginably” — as in not able to be imagined. From there, then, to conclude that some bloke in a dress in Rome is somehow the One True Conduit is vastly, enormously arrogant.
So that leads (me) to the concept that while many people may have pieces of the answer, have part of the knowledge of god, no-one could have all the answer — because if they did, the answer wouldn’t really be worth having! Or, to put it another way, if we don’t even understand each other (regular mortals), how daft is it to pretend we understand a deity?
Once you reach the enlightened state of the honest Agnostic (summarized as “I dunno”), everything else becomes much easier…
Malc.
I call BS. When you differed on the raising of your children you were all packed to leave, yet you still submit today. Same thing with religion.
Maybe you missed the part where I said “But if he chooses to become a devout practictioner of his religion, I’d have to believe that he knows what is true, and follow his faith accordingly. I would HAVE to find a way to believe what he believes.”
I have to agree with you somewhat. I don’t know how much because religion isn’t an issue in our household. Master is a lapsed Baptist who lost confidence in the church before I ever met him.
I, on the other hand am (was) a first degree initiate into a coven before I moved in with him. I sort of did give up my religion for him in that I left my coven 600 miles behind by moving here. I still have my beliefs but I’ve struggled with staying “active”.
Now… that being said, in my mind any person who judged me based on my beliefs, would not be suitable as a Master. If Sir was still a devout Bible-thumping, you’re-going-to-hell-if-you-don’t-believe Baptist. Yep we’d have a problem.
I don’t know that I could be like you and find a way to believe what he believes if I had to.
However, I’ve known a lot of Christians who know what I am, and don’t judge it (hey you know the whole “judge not lest ye be judged”).
It wouldn’t be judging though, see? It would be an honest attempt at *saving* your immortal soul. (which totally puts a more romantic spin on it than icky old judging does!) :P
i completely agree with you in this post. i do not see how people with opposing religions can work together in a relationship. i am a christian and my partner in life will have to believe that way also. personally i think there is so much spritually in D/s that beliefs really matter.
Definitely. The spiritual compatibility is so very important.
I don’t know. We’re not believers, although each of us have childhood backgrounds in various religious communities. We can, occasionally get into religious/spiritual discussions, but for us that is mostly just interesting and entertaining.
On another front, however, we do clash, He and I. He is a radically “pro-polyamory” fundamentalist, and I am inclined to believe that an awful lot of the platitudes spouted by poly people is just so much horseshit. In the end, what I think/believe on the subject just doesn’t matter. We will do it as He defines it, but I can’t imagine that there is ever going to be a time when my mind doesn’t reserve the “right” to call bullshit.
I’ve got a post working on the subject. Stand by.
“It is really simple actually — Master is always right. Even when He’s completely wrong.”
And really, what can be said after that? It is utterly true. No matter how much we may spaz about around that central fact – there it is.
Actually, I have two friends who are Jewish and Greek Orthodox. They have made it work – and yes they have children. Neither has given up their belief, they realize they believe in the same G-d, and that their truest disagreement is whether Christ was the Messiah.
I have many threads that talk to the subject of Different paths to the Divine, and talk about tthe issues of Unequally Yoked on FetLife. Feel free to come and chime in. The two groups are Belief, Spirituality and Religion (my group) and Christians & BDSM (of which I am a member). I am of Jewish heritage and my slave is Christian – yet we make it work (well mostly).
Kron
I will. Thank you for the invite. :-)
I agree with you, too, Kaya. I remember years ago asking a man I worked with and was friends with what religion his wife practiced (we had somehow gotten on a discussion of his children from a previous marraige being in Catholic school). When he answered, “I don’t know”, I was totally shocked. How can you commit to spending your life with someone when you don’t know how their spiritual beliefs mesh with yours?
IMHO, this is important. I could NEVER spend my life with someone who believed in a substantially different spirituality than I do. Vanilla or Kink. Any more than I could spend my life with a Republican…LOL… (although I did have a Republican Dom once, but it didn’t work out…he turned out to be a switch…)
di
I had a switchy Republican once too! Didn’t work for me either. ;-)
Hello, you have a very nice blog here. If you like we could exchange links betwen our blogs.
Let me know!!!
I think that as long as both people have a strong sense of spirituality (this whole “religion” business is just giving people the run-around) and respect the choices of others, then it’s all good.
However, if one person came out of a “everyone else is wrong” mindset, then yes, doomed. But then, I think that person is doomed to missing out on a lot of the beauty in life already.
I have been opened up, by the Gent, to a great deal more information that I might have been willing to hear otherwise. I have certainly been shaped by his beliefs in various ways. He has instructed me to utilize certain tools and spiritual practices. I have done so, to my benefit. When I’m not ready to hear something, he’s patient with me while I flail around in denial and finally settle down to listen. When something calls to me outside the realm of his own interests or beliefs, he usually supports me in exploring that.
So…I have changed as a result of his spirituality, but given the path I was on, I’d like to think that he just fast-forwarded a lot of my growth. I have had to fast-forward a lot, as there is an 18 year age gap and he’s not always willing to wait around for me to figure some stuff out on my own…..although he usually recognizes that he’s asking it of me years before he himself (at that age) was there.
“However, if one person came out of a “everyone else is wrong” mindset, then yes, doomed.”
This, I’m realizing, is exactly the mindset I was taught about religion. It’s been interesting, even in this short time, to open my mind about it. :-)
I am a theoretical switch, and the reason I do not submit in play is primarily religious. (That’s an interesting thing to trot out in the lifestyle, I’ll add.) I am pagan, and I am initiated to the third degree, and when one takes that last initiation, it is very much a permanent collar. I am already in submission; I cannot accept that position from a man. Now, there is one person I sleep with on occasion who is also pagan and in my tradition, and he understands very well that sacred sexual union can also include dominance and submission. But otherwise, it would be sacrilege for me to submit, quite simply.
I sort out religion early on, because again, as a third-degree initiate, my religious practice is woven through my life. I don’t want to begin the process of training a submissive, only to have it go to hell because he’s always been “uncomfortable” with the prayers I say when I see one of the sacred birds or when I first see the sun or moon. Now, I don’t require that he be willing to practice exactly the way I do. No one does, not even my husband. But he needs to be either compatibly religioned, or he needs to be graciously and compatibly tolerant as a non-religious.
Pardon my ignorance here, but if I can ask so I understand better–
As pagan initiated to the third degree, you are in submission already to whom/what exactly?
The person who you sleep with, is he also in the same submission as you are and, if so, is he the dominant or submissive (or neither) person in your relations?
If I’m understanding your religion correctly, then you are locked into being a Top – so how would that work for someone who simply was not a top and was submissive? would they just not be as initiated as you are or could they not truly follow your religion? (am I wording this all right? I’m sorry if I’m not.)
Kaya,
It’s nice to know that there are non-Christians, such as yourself, that understand why we are so eager to convert others. On the other hand, I have differences with how some of my fellow Christians go about it. I can’t see how yelling about how evil they are and how they’re doomed to burn in hell is going to entice them (I don’t think even your level of masochism at it’s most severe would enjoy that ;) ).
I find the battles between denominations possibly the stupidist thing Christians engage in. The idea of differing denominations was actually addressed in the first years of the church. The earliest Christians were Jews who believed Jesus was the Messiah. After a while, Peter started preaching to gentiles and gaining converts. The issue came up of whether gentiles had to become Jews to become Christians. The verdict was that they should follow four rules only (the exact ones is unimportant). The point was that people of differing faith backgrounds (read denominations) could be equally saved. You didn’t have to be exactly the same as everyone else to be a Christian.
Dave
I’m not seeing how people with two differing religions do M/s. Hell, I can’t see how they do vanilla for that matter. This isn’t just a difference of opinion. Religion is what you believe happens to your eternal soul, it’s not a debate on who’s the best man for president.
I can’t speak as a 24/7 sub because I’m not one. However, I am in a relationship where we do have opposite religious beliefs. Darling is a secular humanist. I’m an unitarian universalist that does have a personal deity. However, some of my philosophical outlook on life factors in too. I will warn this is going to be a tad bit long, which I hope you don’t mind.
I think the major reason why we work so well is:
1. I believe everyone has their own path to discovering their personal truth, which is the central belief of Unitarian Universalism. I don’t believe there is a right or wrong faith. I don’t believe in the concept of an absolute faith because the human race is so complex that it would be hard for everyone to follow one faith.
2. Personally, even as a Christian, I never really cared what others follow as far as their religious beliefs are concerned. As long as they were content with their faith, didn’t push their beliefs down my throat, and be a violent prick…I didn’t care. I’ve always been under the impression that if you believe in a soul, you should be the one that’s responsible for it. No one else.
3. Another reason why I don’t care what others do is that I’m a loner. If I refuse to live up to other people’s expectations on what to do with my life, I don’t see why people should expect the same of me when it comes to their life.
Now, when I say “I don’t care”…it doesn’t mean I don’t care about their well being. Of course, I want them to be happy. What I don’t care about is I don’t care if people worship or think differently from me. I value diversity extensively because it does make life interesting.
Darling has had problems with my belifs, but each time he’s tried to get me to convert…I’ve gotten strict with him. I’ve sacrificed enough for this man by moving three thousand miles away from my native land to be in another culture and country. I’m not going to sacrifice my faith, especially when I don’t mind that he doesn’t have a high power and I don’t do shit to convert him.
I totally answered the wrong question on that thread… lol. But I never understood why anyone would involve themselves in a relationship with someone whose beliefs differed so much from their own anyway. I mean… I don’t know if I could live with knowing I was going to heaven cause I was a Jesus-freak (No offense meant to the Jesus-freaks) and Master was going to hell because He wasn’t.
However… For me, it’s different. I think my man’s a pretty good person all in all. And if my god didn’t believe in Him just because Master doesn’t believe in my god? And was going to make Him burn for all eternity instead of letting Him come to heaven with me? Well… that’s where we get into debates of hypocrisy in the Bible and I’m just not up for that tonight.
In short, I’d probably go off in search of a god (if there must be one) who believed in both of us. And if my search came up fruitless, I’d be an atheist. Which… I am now.