My thoughts exactly
From Carrie –
For me (and we’ve talked about this before, you and I) it’s kind of like…
We sit around half the day thinking about what we’d like to do and all the nasty, wonderful things we’d like our guys to do to us when they get home. We fantasize and devote a ton of our attention to anticipating these things…
And then Dude gets home and he just wants dinner and a quick blowjob and a good nights sleep.
So we bury the want for the night and move on.
This goes on for days, weeks, months sometimes…
We get agitated, whiny, bitchy, out of our proper “place” because we’re, while happy and content in general, perhaps not getting all the s/m and direct, in your face control and displays of power we crave.
So we get to a place where you bury it down deep and stop thinking about it all day, stop letting that desire be at the front of our minds.
Cuz that’s what we “should” do, right? Sit and patiently wait, serving and being in our proper places until our Dude has the time, the desire, the energy, whatever, to give us what he wants to.
I mean, it’s not the same if we force or guilt them into it, right?
And, besides, being a slave isn’t about us, right?
So we bury, and bury, and bury…
We modify our expectations…
And next thing you know…
Even though a part of you, deep inside, is aching for the things you’re not getting, another part of you can’t seem to let that ache, that need, that desire free anymore.
Even when you GET what you’ve been needing it’s not quite the same, not quite enough or something.
Because you’ve shoved that shit so deep inside to prevent the pain of not getting, to prevent being a whiny, needy, high maintenance bitch that it’s just not possible to free it.
I mean, you can.
But it’s dusty. It’s rusty. It’s cautious. It’s scared.
It knows it’s going to have to go back to being buried, that it’s only being let out for a little bit and that’s kind of like asking a flower to grow, bud and bloom all in a single day.
It just doesn’t work that way.
The wild, uninhibited, craving response we give when our need, our desire, has been nurtured and fed regularly simply doesn’t happen when we’ve been burying that desire.
At least for me.
When I consciously let go of my expectations I have to smother the desire. Otherwise I get resentful. I get disappointed. Things don’t work right when I get disappointed and resentful.
I dunno.
I’m not making a lick of sense.
I know some folks manage to retain that sense of being a writhing, needing, aching thing despite having no expectations. Manage to want while still staying in their patient place.
I can’t.
When I drop my expectations the desire slowly but surely drops, as well.
I think it’s self protection.
It hurts less to wait if I make myself not really want it, if I’m not feeling rejected every time I don’t get it.
=============================
Word for word I couldn’t have said it any better, she said exactly what I was thinking.
I guess the next question is – then what?
(btw folks, if you’re in the market for some seriously hot and rough bdsm clips, check out Carrie’s clip store. I promise it’s worth it. They play hard, and since I know them, I can vouch for it being genuine. There ain’t no playing for the camera there.)
Tags: M/s rambles
Uncategorized | kaya | 
Saturday July 12th, 2008 5:02pm
Well, is it any wonder we get along so well? I’m usually tellin’ Taylor… LOOK… kaya said what I was thinking again! :)
I’m already thinking about the lack of party this month and missin’ you too.
Er… missin’ you TWO. Both of you.
Egads, but I’ve been making a lot of spelling/grammar/typographical errors lately. :(
Holy COW!!!!
That is EXACTLY how I am feeling right now…as in the last couple of weeks. That was said So well, thanks for posting it kaya. May I steal some of that to put on my blog for CK to read?
rosie
Sure sweetheart. I didn’t write it so credit it to Carrie, k?
;-)
A-fucking-men
ahhhh…
ummm…
you can add another AMEN from this side of the border too… carrie said it so damn well ..i think i have written a dozen blog entries TRYING to say what she said …
and one other small point here… i really appreciate when blogs .. yours… carrie ann’s and a few others – talk about the truth in BDSM relationships.. it just isn’t all rainbows and lollipops all the time.. and sometimes it plain sucks……..
morningstar (owned by Warren)
Then what? I try to be the slave that he wants to play with. I know how to do it. I know what will get me played with. I swallow my pride and be that slave, his perfect slave.
I’m not sure how that relates to any of this?
In fact, I would say that swallowing our pride, shoving down expectations and trying to be the perfect slave is part of what caused the issue being discussed.
Of course every relationship is different but I know in mine – and I’d venture to say in kaya’s – being played with has little to do with how perfectly we behave as slaves and a lot to do with the ebb and flow of his sadistic urges and the level of interference being provided by vanilla life. (Job, period, teenagers, sickness, blah blah blah… all those things can and DO interfere with play)
Not to mention the fact that swallowing one’s pride and being the perfect slave in order to get play time feels manipulative to me. I’d lose respect for my man if he fell for that shit. I, instead, strive for perfection at all times. Because I agreed to please him, not because I want him to play with me.
I fail a lot. :) But at least I’m not using my efforts to twist the power structure and compel him to play with me, only to go back to lackadaisical slavery once I’ve gotten it. (Which is what your response said to me. “I know how to be good, to be perfect for him and when I want to be played with I’ll swallow my pride and do so”. Maybe I just read it wrong…)
Anyhow…
Like I said in the beginning…
I’m not sure how it all relates anyhow.
Being good – letting go of expectations and contenting ourselves to getting what we’re given, when he wants to give it, keeping the power firmly in his court – is half the issue being discussed, right?
I think that the selflessness Leesa is describing is part of the power exchange dynamic. From the perspective of the one with lesser power, compromise of personal expectations is part of the job description. Needs whether fulfilled or unfulfilled are secondary to the expectations of the one with all the power. Power exchange is not equal opportunity.
While I can appreciate the sentiment in the statement, “We sit around half the day thinking about what we’d like to do and all the nasty, wonderful things we’d like our guys to do to us when they get home. We fantasize and devote a ton of our attention to anticipating these things…
And then Dude gets home and he just wants dinner and a quick blowjob and a good nights sleep.” That shit happens in every relationship. What we may do is different than those there ‘villa folksies but this situation is a relationship burden being shrouded under the guise of M/s.
The crux of the issue is expectations versus needs.
Everyone needs to distinguish between expectations and needs. We all have a need to be cared for, to be understood, to be accepted and to be forgiven when necessary. For us to have set expectations about the way those needs get fulfilled can only cause disappointment when to expectation is not met.
Disappointment follows unfulfilled expectations.
The single most elusive problem in relationships is undelivered communication. The predicaments that follow are predictable. It’s the things we don’t communicate because the last time we did, it caused a confrontation, argument, anger, frustration and we want to avoid these feelings. So we stuff discussing our needs them deep down inside. The next thing you know is, your partner didn’t play with you at the first opportunity and you want to run and hide and have a good cry and it’s not about the missed opportunity. Its about the unfulfilled expectation of the unexpressed need.
So what’s next? So, how do you sidestep the disappointment that always comes from unfulfilled expectations? Who wins the “expectations versus needs” dilemma?
The needs win, of course! You focus on needs and make a commitment to never have any undelivered communication about them. You try to talk about what you need with your partner no matter how uncomfortable it may make you feel. Remember that trust that was the foundation of the realtionship int the first place. You trust your partnet to fulfill the need without setting an expectation about how they go about doing it.
Plain and simple and yet seemingly next to impossible.
Why? Because we all have needs and sometimes it is just dinner and a blowjob.
Yeah, that’s what I said in the first place. :) The issue, I believe, was holding on to a certain type of desire once you’ve compromised your expectations.
No, it’s really not.
Hmmm… Those needs don’t exactly match my list. I think it’s folly for us to assume we understand and know the needs of others. However, the bit about expectations is spot on. I think that’s why, in the initial post, the getting rid of expectations and accepting what you’re given thing was mentioned? Oh… and then we talked about how some of us have a hard time maintaining a high level of desire for certain things once we stop focusing on them, stop expecting them.
I don’t disagree with what you’re saying. I just don’t think you’re quite understanding the actual issue.
Yes, I’ve heard this before. :) I know kaya. I’ve met her, watched her with her Man, been reading her for awhile, have talked lifestyle issues with her and her Guy. They’ve been together for a few years. (Four, five, six? I can’t remember) My Guy and I are goin’ on seven. I’m pretty sure communication isn’t a problem. :)
I know I’m coming across a bit bitchy here but…
The issue isn’t trust, communication or expecting our Owners to act in a certain manner.
I believe – at least for me – it was about how to maintain a desire for certain things when you’re working so hard to squelch the need that can often get out of hand and lead to unrealistic expectations.
Personally, I already know how to communicate and trust and keep my expectations realistic. (And I AM allowed to have expectations, yanno. I fully fucking expect my Guy to live up to his end of the power exchange. That’s the deal. If he doesn’t there is no power exchange. :) I don’t expect him to do anything “my way”, just to be who he committed to be. Hence having realistic expectations and working so hard to get rid of the selfish, unrealistic ones)
That’s not the question. Issue. Whatever.
The question is…
Once you’ve managed to be good, to get rid of expectations, to stay in your place but find yourself losing certain desires… what next?
How do you lose one and keep the other?
I guess it’s second nature for most to answer with “communicate” and “trust” and whatnot. Those answers, however, are just too pat and politically correct for me. Especially since anyone who reads kaya (or me, for that matter) knows our relationships already entail those things.
You are far from being bitchy, and OMG did you hint at me being politically correct. Oy vey, I almost pissed myself laffing. :-0
I was careful not to blather on about respect or acceptance, and the ever popular following the path laid before you.
I do agree with you that the phrase “communicate and trust” has become almost as meaningless “safe, sane, and consensual”. It’s misused, overused, and contextually abused. However, if you have an unexpressed need or a shattered expectation then burying it deep isn’t likely to help get the situation resolved. It can and does lead to something known as resentment, and resentment in any relationship is toxic.
Hmmm…
Perhaps that’s where the miscommunication is.
Personally, I wasn’t talking about an unexpressed need nor a shattered expectation.
More…
A known need that simply can’t – or won’t – be met at the moment and a releasing of expectations in order to prevent that resentment. No expectations = no resentment and disappointment.
It does, however, often create a situation where the need also gets buried deeply so that when suddenly it can – and is – being met, one wonders where the need disappeared to. And misses it.
I guess for me, if Master neglects to give me something I feel I need, and I, being the good slave that I strive hard to be squelch the desire for that “need”, (ie, orgasm, for example) and if in doing so the desire for orgasm goes way down, to perhaps almost non-existant (say it isn’t so!) then that is the direct result of his Mastery of me. It is his game, I am his puppet.
If Master does not like the end result, well, then he is the only one who can change it. If I turn into a less-than-responsive-less-than-needy-craving-slutty-whatever, (ie, robot) it’s his fault.
Whichever “needs” that he feeds will merely grow and those which he doesn’t, won’t.
Basically, it’s not up to me. Sure, I can communicate my needs to my Owner, and believe you me, I certainly do. How he chooses to respond, whether by giving me what I crave so badly, or not, is obviously up to him and the end result is his mess to Own.
It’s giving up more than wants and needs. It’s giving up the very essence of who you are. If you do this, yes, you will be changed. And the Owner is directly responsible for the change. And if he doesn’t like it, he will have to change it back.
The “what then?” answer is, it’s up to the Owner. It’s what you signed up for.
Sorry, but that’s all I can come up with, lol.
Well, I like it.
It’s pretty much how I feel, too.
Like…
Here ya go, Dude. Here’s what you created. Only you can create something else if you don’t like it.
I hate to, ever, lay too much on the dominant partner’s doorstep. Because the submissive partner simply cant’ abdicate all responsibility for everything. But, in this instance, the only one who can fix it is the dominant who created it.
And, perhaps, a puppet is what he wanted all along and he won’t fix a thing.
I might take bits and pieces of these conversations over to my blog and explore further. Do you mind being quoted a bit?
Carrie Ann
Not at all Carrie Ann, if you would link to my blog I would be even happier, LOL.
But seriously, go right ahead.
*takes a wander over to your blog….
dk
Sorry, that anonymous commenter up there was me, lol.
I have to absolutely agree with doubleknot. The question here is what is a need. There is a lot of debate within the community and in individual relationships in regards to needs vs. desires. For me, a need is something that directly affects my happiness and who I am. Not like…ice cream makes me happy, but like…spending time with my friends gives me deep emotional fulfillment and keeps me from being too introverted. Yes, it’s his decision to limit or even take away something like being with my friends…but he has to take into consideration what effect that’s going to have on me long term. There is no effect in having ice cream taken away. I stop functioning on certain levels in having my friends taken away from me.
It’s the same way with those expectations and desires for specifically M/s, BDSM themed interactions or ‘extras’.
Master and I have ebbed and flowed over the last two years because of life issues. Stress is our biggest nemesis. He’ll get caught up in all of the responsibilities of handling our lives…and our play goes out the window. I never really consciously tried to stuff down those expectations, so I don’t know if I relate in that regard but I do know that much of my libido is directly attached to how much active dominance there is in my life. It’s really difficult to push him and say, “I need this.” when he’s got so much else going on in his life. It’s near to impossible though for me to reach that place of ‘always dripping, always ready, fantasizing and needy’ place that HE can get me to with just a few days of playing with me…by myself.
I’m with a lot of subs who say that asking for it just isn’t the same but it’s gotten to the point where I have to point out to him…look, whatever you decide to do…this is what’s happening with me and it’s the result of too little of these aspects in our life. And really…it makes me very unhappy emotionally because it’s such a large part of who I am and it makes every part of our relationship so much better. We are not, as a whole, made up of our BDSM…but god damned if it doesn’t snake through every one of our interactions when it’s good…making everything….more sexual and just…more.
I have had these conversations with Master at times like you describe here shadow. Times when life takes precedence and I am required to simply adapt and deal with the apparent lack of Dominance in my life.
I say apparent, because he never stops being Dominant. Requiring me to lay aside my yearning for the acts that make me feel most like his slave, well that in itself is an act of Dominance. The fact that I am not controlling the dynamics in our relationship should enforce my very position, that of the slave, and while it does, I do find myself at times becoming almost despondent when yearning for these things.
And when this is expressed to him, he doesn’t get mad; he says it’s like the check engine light went on my slave dashboard and he realizes he has to address the issue or be left with a mess to clean up, so to speak.
So I agree with you shadow
That was cute, what your Master says about the check engine light. So apt too for us, because Master’s very into cars.
One of the things that I think gets very discounted by many submissives is what I mentioned above, the fact that for many of us, that active dominance *is* a need for us. In fact, I struggled with this for a long time, wanting so much to just be able to stop pushing at him, let him do it his own way and be happy with what I got. It took me a long time to realize WHY I couldn’t. That active control is a kink for me. For *me* it’s just as important as orgasms and if I weren’t getting that, I would become dispondant like you mentioned. Like, Master and I would have these conversations and I would talk about wanting more control in my life and more active dominance (which – as you said is different from his all the time dominance). He would point out all the areas of my life that he controlled, my money, the vehicle; all the areas in which he’d shaped my thoughts since we’d met in regards to things that were important to him. When I explained to him that those things were so big that they almost fell into the background and didn’t feed the daily control kink that I had. Since he and I have come to that understanding, he’s definitely been increasing the amount of daily control which I’m very grateful for.
if we all feel this way and everyone reads it how come it cant be fixed ? they see and read our need yet still we have to bury it?????i am new and hopefully learning things well…but this seems a common thought? so maybe im not alone…grinz that is good…thanks for the insight
I just found your blog this minute… and I am SURE it is because I was supposed to read this… I am SO in this exact place right now…
Thanks for letting me know I’m not the only one!
Kaya, Carrie,
I think I can see where you’re coming from. I’ll try an anology from my own life. Ever since I started writing erotica about 16 months ago, I discovered that there is a part of me that had a burning need to write. I love to write, and I wake up each day hoping to get a little writing in (at least). It doesn’t work ojut that way all the time. Things get in the way, students needing help (ok, they aren’t in the way since teaching is a bigger need than writing), chores at the house, whatever. When I can’t write, I gte disappointed. There was a period of two konths at the end of last year when I couldn’t write for two months. It’s hard to describe the feeling of going day after day without putting thought to paper and creating. Worse, it was the same thing that kept me from it, and I started getting a little resentful. The only way to stop it was to stop expecting to write.
When I was able to restart, two things happened. I found it difficult at first to get back into the swing of things. I actually had to make myself write, to expect to write each day. Second, once I was back on track, not being able to write when I expected to was more upsetting than it had been in the past. It was a sort of, “God Damn! Can’t I just get some fuxking writing in?” I had to work at not getting inordinately upset about interuptions.
For me, what I noticed was that the need didn’t go away, but the expectation was withering. I had to consciously try to expect it again. What was also true was that the feeling of the need was harder for a while. I suspect that, if I had a suspicion that I would be interupted a lot shortly after getting started again, I wouldn’t have bothered nuturing the expectation, nor in feeling the need.
From what I can gather, the two of you have both expressed an inability or unwillingness to let the need be felt again because you are certain that once oyu start feeling it, wanting it, anticipating it, expecting it, you’ll be cut off again. That fucking hurts, doesn’t it? It’s no surprise you’re gunshy. Your question, Kaya, is now what do we do?
Not being a slave, I could take action to reduce the chances for the distraction from happening a lot again. You on the other hand, don’t have that option in full. I might experience the same type of inability if I wasn’t single. The spouse and kids might tregularly consume all my writing time, leaving me unfulfilled in that regard. It’s even harder for you because your need is for someone ELSE to do something to you, not for you to be able to do something. Other than steps I’m sure you’ve already taken (making sure the need is known, making sure nothing at your end gets in the way, etc.), I don’t know what you can do, or if there is even anything you can or should do. You can’t make your Master beat you on a regular basis, and if you could, that wouldn’t be very slave of you, would it.
I suppose you could try planning a sadist/masochist date? Get a sitter (if needed), rent a room (I would suggest those cabin type motels) and whip up something fun, painful, and hot. Is this kind of idea even possible? I’ve heard enough radio couselors suggest married couples still go on dates. Can you have a beat me date? I know some of the spontanaety would be lost on such a date, but maybe it would meet the need and give you an expectation that BOTH of you have. I wonder if there’s ever a time when He has an expectation (God, I feel like giving Kaya 25 witht ehmkisery stick) that is shot in the foot by something outside of His control? If you make and can do such a date, both of you would at least be on the same page and only the outside world could get in the way (if it so dared).
Anyway, you asked, “what now?” and I went into problem solving mode. I hope it helps, or at least gives you a humorous moment in an otherwise blah day. Take care.
Dave
PS what did He think of that story?
Now if that isn’t just the crux of it, eh?
It hurts. And we’re afraid.
I guess, to me, the “what next” comes from him.
All I can do is pull up my big girl panties, try to enjoy what I’m given and hope he figures out a way to fix this, to take me past that fear and into a realm of pure acceptance that doesn’t force me to squelch my desires.
“When I drop my expectations the desire slowly but surely drops, as well.
I think it’s self protection.
It hurts less to wait if I make myself not really want it, if I’m not feeling rejected every time I don’t get it.”
You just articulated something that almost destroyed my relationship recently. Somehow, it helps to know I’m not the only one who has been there.
You can only be pushed away so many times before you stop wanting to come back. It’s self-preservation, I think. Regular rejection is toxic. It just… shuts you down. So you stop putting yourself out there.
I think that I am lucky as #1, I very much am a submissive slave, making it probably easier for me to roll happily with Master’s desires…be it him in the mood for a movie and cuddling, or in the mood for smothering me in a drycleaning bag or doing a full blown take down/rape scene, and #2, I do not identify as a masochist so physical beatings/painful manifestations of his dominance are not something I *need*. In that way I think I differ from most, but I still have the most basic expectations about our M/s and romantic relationship. I *need* force, control, and displays of aggression. And I would *like* it to be displayed in physically and emotionally but sometimes it doesn’t all work out in my favor. Gradually, my expectations have come to mirror pretty much exactly what he wants to dole out.
I do not always get those things via physicality or sex. Yet there is always, ALWAYS, that undercurrent of “I’m Not In Charge”. I don’t yet know (after 3 years) whether it is my perception of the situation that makes it *seem* that way, or if it is there due to subtle (but overt enough for me to feel),and daily ministrations of his power. Either way, I make it be enough. Because it’s either that or I get down the road where I think the grass is greener.
That being said. You may think that I have no ability to discuss the situation, but as the question is not about how to deal with not getting something, rather it is how do you maintain desire for the something you’re not getting, I will give my two cents.
I think it’s a lot like living with an addiction. An alcoholic probably lives life, every single day, recovering. Telling himself that he will not take that drink today, but he will still get through the day. He will survive the day and live that day to the fullest, even without that which he feels he *needs*. So every moment that he is craving, he simply tamps it down. And lives that next 5/10/15 minutes without the drink. Does he ever lose desire for the drink? Nope. Does he live a good life without it? Yup. I hope so anyways. He simply goes without. He makes that choice. He either drinks, or he doesn’t. No great epiphanies there…no fancy psychological quick-fix. You do or you don’t.
So that’s not a pretty answer. Not an easy answer. Not an answer anyone wants to hear probably. But there comes a time when you simply have to “harden the fuck up” and deal. You stay with your “Dude” and serve him his dinner and give him his blowjob and change your desires to conform to his, or you don’t. Period. You say “I can’t”, and “fuck it” and walk away from your commitment.
So many people want to analyze and debate and discuss and find answers and sometimes it’s simply: do it or don’t do it. Be happy with what you have by slowly changing your expectations to meet the partner you love, or you go off in search of whatever you can find that most closely matches YOUR expectations and hope you find it.
Sometimes that’s just the way it is.
And I agree with Fyre when she stated that this isn’t just about M/s, D/s, vanilla, kink, whatever. It’s about LIFE. The original question is interchangeabe with just about anything, addiction, dieting, whatever. Sometimes it’s just about choosing what you want and making the decision to either adapt to what you GET, or giving up what you have and seeking out what you WANT.
kaya, I’ve been reading you for so long. I hope you find a way to adapt!
melissa
Not the greatest analogy as, for the addict, the desire never goes away. What we’re talking about is our desires plunging, being unable to sustain those desires after we’ve hardened the fuck up and dealt.
I think Dave hit the nail on the head.
We get hurt so we bury the part that hurts and are afraid to pull it out again.
And that is something that can’t be fixed on our own. That is something we can’t just harden up and deal with. That is something that’s going to take some effort to fix by our Dudes.
Like doubleknot said…
We are what we are in direct response to what they’ve made us.
Unless this is how they wanted us… only they can make us something else.
Okay so whatever, point taken on the fact that an addict *may* never lose the desire…lets toss the analogy.
The end result may still be the same.
You lose the desire? So you lose it. What of it??? What if there IS no answer?
So WHAT if you don’t have the desire? You either choose to take what he gives you regardless of whether YOU have the desire for it, and do your best to conform to what you’re getting….OR, you go find someone whose desires more closely match your own?
I mean, what if that’s all there is?
melissa
lmao
Since when has M/s ever been so black and white?
Seriously, melissa, we’ve already conformed to what we’re getting. That’s half the point. And in doing so we’ve lost a little bit of something.
I can’t speak for kaya but I know around here Taylor doesn’t much like the loss of that spark. So there HAS to be an answer.
Because, to me, to Taylor and to – I believe – kaya and her Master, M/s isn’t about saying “oh well, no easy answer, let’s pack our shit and move on, shall we? Nice knowin’ ya, better luck next time…”
Creating a slave – and I do believe our men create us, mold a small lump of slavelike clay into a full blown slave of the sort they desire – means occasionally you mess up. Occasionally you take a wrong turn and end up in a place you didn’t want to be. You don’t just say fuck it and live with it or leave. You turn around and fix it.
For the love of fuck, who wants a relationship that is so black and white and simplistic??????????
Perhaps for you and yours a “so what” answer works.
For some of us, it doesn’t.
So we search for the answer that does.
You don’t have to “get” that or agree with it.
But, fuck me running, you could try to understand that “so what” just doesn’t work for all of us and quit pushing it.
M/s is about growth and change, often trial and error, ebb and flow.
You go ahead and live with your black and white, with your so what and your deal with it.
I’ll continue, with my guy, to explore a way that works for both of us.
So what and a lack of desire for some of the very things that drew us together in the first place doesn’t work for us.
Quitting doesn’t work for us either.
And I’m damned glad of it.
No need to be so, ummm, terse, carrie ann, lol. I am not advocating black and white, first of all, so you can lose the snark here: “Perhaps for you and yours a “so what” answer works.”
and here: “You go ahead and live with your black and white, with your so what and your deal with it.”
You don’t know me and you don’t know my relationship. kaya asked a question, and I gave my two cents. I am not sure why you’re getting so riled up, to the point of assumption and rudeness.
Do I advocate running? Absolutely not. My relationship has withstood quite a number of hardships in which it would have been easier for me to hit the road, jack. And for him as well.
My point is this. In a nutshell. Make no assumptions. (And oh my yes, I GET how serious your relationship is, lol. Got it. No need to keep hammering me flat with it.)
One can conform and learn to most closely match their desires with their partners without being a doormat, robot, (pick your favorite term) and most definitely without losing their “spark”. It is not a matter of blotting out your personality, I don’t think. (For me it isn’t anyways. My personality is a hell of a lot broader than just my desires, emotional or otherwise.) It is a matter of taking inventory on what you have vs. what you *need*, and deciding whether what you GET is enough to sustain you, your partner, your relationship. If you want the relationship, you make it work. Does it happen overnight? Not for me and not for others I know…but can it happen? Sure it can.
The ways I have made it work are to slowly align myself with his desires. To be his slave. It’s either that or walk. And it has worked.
So kaya, that’s what I’ve got, I hope it helps. And carrie ann, relax a little. Why ya gotta be so harsh?Sheesh. It’s kaya’s journal and a public forum….sorry you disagree so vehemently but I am giving my opinion…not trying to pick a fight.
melissa
P.S. You said, “M/s is about growth and change, often trial and error, ebb and flow.”
Yes. That’s a given. Compromise and the ability to evolve with changing/ebbing & flowing desires is part & parcel of what I believe to be a solid M/s relationship. Any relationship for that matter.
Additionally, our desires are still the same, it may be the timing and frequency which is out of whack. This would spell trouble if the only reason a slave belonged to her Master were due to their compatability as respects SM in its many forms. But my relationship, and kaya’s relationship, and many many many other relationships aren’t built on a foundation of play only. There is love and trust and affection and all the other good stuff. And when you have that, it’s easier to compromise and change and continue grooving along when the tempo changes.
melissa
Oh good grief. THIS is why I’m getting aggravated and snarky.
I typed some words. Kaya said “YES! Eureka! That’s it exactly!”
Those words I typed said our desires are NOT the same.
You’re throwing answers out there, melissa, without grasping the initial blog post, it’s meaning, it’s feelings.
And that throws everything out of whack and becomes very frustrating for the person talking.
I mean, you’re talking about love and trust and affection and how it makes it easier to groove along. And, yes, it does. But you also state you’ve been reading kaya for a long time. And, obviously, she has love and trust and affection in her relationship. Obviously it’s about more than just S&M. And yet she’s NOT having an easy time just grooving along.
So what is the purpose of your response? It doesn’t apply. You’re missing the very basics of this whole blog post and giving advice.
Giving advice when you don’t really understand the problem is just…
I dunno. It just doesn’t make sense to me.
Um. Wow.
I won’t ask you to illustrate for me how my posts have nothing to do with kaya’s question, as it is much harder to prove a negative. So I won’t do that.
I will reiterate my point.
Compromise. Alignment. Trying your hardest to make whatever is is happening in the moment, i.e. dinner, blowjobs, beatings, sex, be what you WANT to be happening.
And if you cannot do that. If you are not willing to do that. If all one can do (one being general, not kaya personally, or you, or me, or anyone else for that matter!), perhaps the relationship is no longer right for either party.
My advice to kaya, try your damndest to align yourself to your Master’s wishes. making it better for him, and better (easier) for you. It CAN be done.
I’m sorry you found no value in my post, I’m sorry my advice is of no use to you…maybe kaya will be different. Maybe someone else will find value.
“So what if you don’t have the desire?” i.e., for anyone who has been in an M’s relationship, sometimes we DON’T have the desire for something. And how many times have our partners not given a shit and gone and done what they’ve wanted to anyway? Whether that be ordering us to clean the toilet or not letting us out of a particularly frightening/painful experience?? Why does that strike you as so odd?
And it’s hilarious to me that you call my advice “simplistic crap”. Good thing I wasn’t talking to you, then, right? LMAO. Wow….just…WOW.
And perhaps it’s not ME missing the point of kaya’s blog/this particular question she posted…perhaps it’s YOU who is not able to see farther than your own doorstep and realize that there are other people who have opinions, regardless of whether you find those opinions to be “simplistic crap”?
ADDITIONALLY! lol…wow this is getting out of control…
you said: “But you also state you’ve been reading kaya for a long time. And, obviously, she has love and trust and affection in her relationship. Obviously it’s about more than just S&M. And yet she’s NOT having an easy time just grooving along.
So what is the purpose of your response? It doesn’t apply. You’re missing the very basics of this whole blog post and giving advice…”
Yeah, That’s exactly what I said. In an effort to state to kaya that BECAUSE of her stable relationship, which any constant reader knows is based on much more than the M/s & SM, she perhaps may be more able to align.
And, while I realize you guys have seen each other in the flesh, and have attended play parties, so have a few other people that read her blog…lol, certainly doesn’t mean you corner the market on knowing everything she feels, needs, wants, desires! :)
Yeah, that would be why I’ve continued to say, repeatedly, that I can’t speak for kaya.
But, yet again, those are my words up there. And I most certainly know my own feelings, needs, wants and desires.
I’ve been responding from my own perspective.
And I still think if you don’t relate to the actual issue you can’t give advice that works well for those of us who do.
Well…
Occasional lack of desire to suck a dick or clean a toilet isn’t exactly what we’ve been talking about.
Then again, I’m unsure why I’d expect you to understand that.
lol, save for the toilet cleaning…I’m using words from your post, carrie ann. You’re the one that spoke of your Dude coming home and wanting dinner and a blowjob.
As far as the toilet cleaning, were you not able to glean the context in which the example was used?
I can put it in more “simplistic” words for you, if you like…
Oh for the love of fuck.
It’s patently obvious you didn’t understand the initial post. Not the feelings behind it, not the situation, nothing.
Continuing this conversation is utterly futile.
Go align your wants or something, eh?
And it’s embarrassingly evident that you’re too close-minded (not to mention completely rude) to understand the concept of “opinion”, and that, :::gasp:::, other people have them.
Go whine and bitch about your relationship yet not do a damn thing to make it better save for expect your “Dude” to clean up the shit you leave on the floor.
Niiiice.
melissa
What happened to being done with this?
I mean, it satisfies me to no end to have pissed you off to the point of losing control but…
Like I said. The point, emotions and issues in the original post obviously escape you so further discussion of it is futile.
Feel free, however, to continue jabbering on and on with insulting, angry posts, though.
It amuses me. :)
Excellent!
Lets exchange email addresses then, rather than take up space here.
Wanna?
That way we can keep agreeing to disagree and waste even more time. Sounds like fun. You think you’re right, I think I’m right.
You started out by being rude, so I’ll end it by being rude.
Deal?
melissa
Blah blah blah.
No, melissa. See, I’ve already said the conversation is futile. (You DO seem to have problems with that – hearing what’s been said) I have no desire to continue the conversation. I’m just waiting for you to be “done” and amusing myself with the fact that it’s taking you so long. :)
Here. I’ll show you how it’s accomplished.
I’m done, melissa. Done.
Bye bye!
And you know what?
I’m done with this. It isn’t beneficial to anyone. Not to kaya, not to any other readers who may be able to get something from all of the posts here.
And I do hope someone can.
You pissed me off, carrie ann, and I pissed you off, and I let you get my proverbial goat. It’s just shitty to do that on someone else’s blog.
Sorry for taking up space in a ridiculous and inane tiff, kaya.
melissa
Compromise. Alignment. Trying your hardest to make whatever is is happening in the moment, i.e. dinner,
blowjobs, beatings, sex, be what you WANT to be happening.
And if you cannot do that. If you are not willing to do that. If all one can do (one being general, not
kaya personally, or you, or me, or anyone else for that matter!), perhaps the relationship is no longer
right for either party.
My advice to kaya, try your damndest to align yourself to your Master’s wishes. making it better for him,
and better (easier) for you. It CAN be done.
I’m sorry you found no value in my post, I’m sorry my advice is of no use to you…maybe kaya will be
different. Maybe someone else will find value.
“So what if you don’t have the desire?” i.e., for anyone who has been in an M’s relationship, sometimes we
DON’T have the desire for something. And how many times have our partners not given a shit and gone and
done what they’ve wanted to anyway? Whether that be ordering us to clean the toilet or not letting us out
of a particularly frightening/painful experience?? Why does that strike you as so odd?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
first thing i want to say is that i am not trying to be argumentative nor confrontational. i do not know
you from adam so i do not propose to speak for you. i would like for you to understand a couple of things.
{Trying your hardest to make whatever is is happening in the moment be what you WANT to be happening.}
this is what what we are doing. well, ok, i am. i cannot speak for others. that is not the issue. that has
not ever been the issue. difficult sometimes, that is what we DO do. we meld our lives to theirs.
{try your damndest to align yourself to your Master’s wishes. making it better for him, and better
(easier) for you.}
this IS what is happening. the problem is that we are losing a part of ourselves in the process. it is NOT
something we can control. this is just a result of circumstances. like it or not, it is bound to happen.
THAT is what we need to fix, or try to fix.
{It CAN be done.}
it IS being done. it is not a matter of CAN it be done. the concern seems to be dealing with the
repurcussions of it AFTER it has happenend….
{“So what if you don’t have the desire?”}
this is the part of your post that got to me. it sounds really judgemental to me.
for my relationship, if i DONT have the desire, that in itself is an issue. if the lack of sex(ual things)
is causing me to NOT want them, that causes a problem. it needs to be fixed and we both realize that.
**that** is what the issue is. what do we do about it…
from what i read on other peoples posts, i seem to have a bit of a different situation. the bottom line is
usually the same, but getting there, we seem to take different routes. carrie knows me, she knows us. she
knows our relationship quite well. i would like to think we know a bit about them as well.
our bottom lines are the same, we both strive as hard as we can (albeit in our own ways) to make life as
good as we can for our man. how we get there differs. we do not judge each other on how we get there but
we try to at least be a shoulder for the other if nothing else. we have discussed this in our basement on
many occasions. we have giggled about it.
for me to not have a desire for something we both know we both want is a problem. he is compelled to fix
every problem he comes across. it is not in him to say, fuck it, yer on your own.
hubby is doting on me. that probably riles up some (to generalize) subs. but for us it is essential to
have respect for the other. it is not a want, it is not a ‘gee, it sure would be nice..’ – it is
manditory. for BOTH of us. our relationship is based on mutual respect and we both dote on each other.
there are many people who can attest to that.
if he knows that something is bothering me, he will hound me until i tell him and he fixes it. i want to
make things easier for him (part of that doting thing) so i try to find a fix before he even knows there
is an issue at all. he usually has a full plate and i do not like to add to it. lately, he plate is
overflowing and i CANNOT bring myself to add to it. i want to make it easier for him and fix it for
him…for us.
the problem is in me.
i know i like it.
i know i want it.
i cannot bring myself to look forward to it.
i cannot allow myself to enjoy it when it does happen.
why?
not real sure, but i think carrie nailed it.
i try to. i can fake it, but i cannot lie to him. i am reacting in a negative way, a non-normal way. i
used to get gooey just thinking about ‘what’s gonna happen tonight’…but, tonight came and went and
nothing. so i bury it. not an issue. i have accomodated this behavior for years, and i do it well. the
problem is he wants me TO WANT IT! i don’t know how to want it again.
i can do without it without a problem, trust me that is SO not a problem.
how do i get that ‘wanting’ back. that yearning from me for him that makes him so happy to see from me.
Well…
That’s what I’ve been trying to say!
You did it better. :)
xoxo
Kaya is absent at the moment and…
Those are my own words and feelings I’m defending in this post.
“From Carrie”. That would be me. :)
As for the snark?
I feel like you’re not getting what we’re talking about. You really can’t relate. So your advice is coming across as simplistic crap.
I think, if it were a matter of aligning our desires to suit theirs, if it were as simple as deal with it or leave…
We wouldn’t be talking about it in the first place.
I think I can freely say that, for anyone who has been thru this, neither Top nor bottom wanted this result.
It happens.
Now it needs to be fixed.
And for some of us the answer isn’t aligning our desires to theirs.
In my relationship, Taylor LIKES me to have my own desires. He likes me to have an eagerness for certain things, an eagerness that comes from my own screaming need and not from being his shadow.
In attempting to align myself with him I’ve lost some of that need.
Neither of us like that.
So…
Your advice doesn’t work.
Saying “so what if you don’t have the desire?” is irritating.
Obviously someone cares whether they do or not.
I care. Kaya cares. I’m pretty sure her Master cares. My Dude cares. Others who have responded, who’ve felt this, care.
Again, we wouldn’t be talking about it if we didn’t.
And, yanno, even if the answer does turn out to be learning to conform our desires more closely to theirs…
An answer that gave advice as to how to do that rather than simply saying “You lose the desire? So you lose it. What of it???” might have been more appreciated.
a small interjection here…
i don’t know about others, but in my relationship, *HE DOES NOT HAVE THE *TIME* to find a fix so i am taking initiative (which is a strong part of our relationship) and ‘doing my part’. it is NOT always HIS responsibility to FIX ‘everything’, even though he thinks he can and is supposed to.
sometimes, aren’t we supposed to help?
how rude is it to back off, pawn everything off on him, barely lifting a finger and all the blame goes to him??
isn’t it our ‘obligation’ to try too?
now, don’t get me wrong, i do agree that our predicament it is a result of his discretion of playtime, but, why should it have to also fall on him to fix it, especially if, by some miracle we DO find one?
doesn’t he have enough responsibility as it is w/o that too?
accept it or leave burns me a bit. that is just not the way it works. you make it sound like a hamburger. either you eat it or you don’t. relationships are not so shallow! there is much more to them than this or that, period. i feel for you if this is truly how your life is led. you are missing out. but hey, if it works for you, high five to ya.
Ack … I’ve been transgendered.
First I’m polically correct and now this.
I think I’ve determined a solution to what’s next.
I’m ordering a frakken misery stick, the line forms to the left.
The beatings will continue until morale improves.
Heh.
I always check a person’s blog/profile before I assign them a he or she for just that reason!
“The beatings will continue until morale improves”
Ya know, that just might be the solution!
EEEP *stands to the right and waits for Barney”
If, in addition to communicating and working through this with your respective Dudes, you are spiritual at all…this very problem can be worked on through some of the Zen and Buddhist concepts of “no expectations”. It’s one that I myself have never really been able to grasp, so I’m just throwing it out there, but it’s what came to my mind when I read this.
The basic idea is very much the same, that expectation leads to disappointment. Part of their spiritual path is learning how to live, even going after the things that they want without attaching expectation to it. It’s been a long time since I looked at any of that stuff but if you’re into studying spirituality or eastern religions…maybe something in it for you.
bah…too early not enough coffee *IF you are spiritual at all.
From the Master of kaya,
To Carrie Ann and Magpie,
Wow….looking at the responses and how each of you comes from a different angle…just shows to us that each relationship is very different. That what may work for one may not work for another. That each of us has different ways to process things, definately different ways to handle issues/concerns and finally how the relationship works for each of us.
Again…..very good posts and discussions.
S