Limits of abuse.
Well! That was a helluva long trip to the mall! :P
Okay, my opinion on abuse in a no-limits M/s relationship. First, since the question of the definition of abuse came up, let me define it according to my view.
In the other post where I mentioned that what we do falls under the term abuse, I’m using it in it’s more general sense. Abuse, in it’s simplest definition is “to use harshly”. If I am not “used harshly” in this household, I don’t know what is. ;)
But for the purposes of the question I asked, rather than get bogged down in a semantics war (again), let’s take it as it’s generally meant whenever a person says they were involved in an abusive relationship. I’d venture to guess that we all have some sort of commonly agreed upon idea of what that means when we hear it, no matter the capacity or form the abuse took on.
My opinion is that in a no-limits M/s relationship, abuse can NOT exist.
I disagree with the notion that a Master is obligated in any way to “take care of” or provide for the well-being of or has the responsibility of ensuring happiness or health or any other such niceties to his slave.
Because once you’ve put those conditions on the relationship, terms of what he *has to* do for his slave, you’ve fallen out of the realm of no-limits. Requirements, conditions, expectations… that’s not a willingness to accept any sort of treatment. That’s a willingness to accept a certain sort of treatment and nothing less. That’s a limit placed on what behaviors you expect from your dominant.
Which isn’t at all to say that’s a bad thing. I absolutely think people need to think and choose wisely before submitting in any capacity, with or without limits.
Sinn mentioned the parent/child analogy and while I agree there are a thousand similarities between M/s and parent/child relationships, I don’t think this is one of them. Solely because the child did not voluntarily enter into a relationship where the possibility of mistreatment exists. A slave does. Unless, of course, the slave puts limits on that mistreatment.
Now obviously, the Master’s decisions on treatment affect the outcome of his work. Depending upon the type of slave he wishes to end up with, he has to adjust his behaviors. But what is he *obligated* to do? In my opinion, in a no-limits situation, he’s *obligated* to do nothing. He’s obligated to do whatever he damn well wishes to do.
What irks me the most are those who come out of a supposed no-limits M/s relationship with the cry of having been abused. You cannot go into a situation with pleas of how you have no limits and you desire to be hurt and used and broken.. and then come out whining because you got what you asked for. No matter what opinion one might have of a dominant who chooses to take, and use, what is offered to him, the onus initially was upon the slave who claimed to be “no limits” when in fact, she was not. Don’t put your hand in boiling water and then be shocked that you got burned. I don’t subscribe to the notion that slaves are weak, blameless creatures who can’t possibly know what they are doing. Bullshit. I think cries of abuse are a smokescreen used to distract from the real issue. How stupid one might feel to have gotten into something they didn’t understand and couldn’t control.
So. That’s that. I had more but I’m running out of time and trying too hard to find a nice way to say what I think (and failing miserably). I suppose the shorter, and easier, answer is what rayne just said in a comment: “No limits means no limits. Neither of those words are ambiguous. So, in my opinion, no. Abuse cannot exist in a “no limits” relationship. Perhaps people should be careful claiming “no limits” if they actually have some?”
~cunt
Tags: M/s rambles, opinions
Uncategorized | kaya | 
Friday December 28th, 2007 8:53am
No limits? There is no such thing.
(There are limits set by the law.
So you would be happy if your master murdered you?)
A ‘no limits’ falls outside the sane, safe and consensual framework and thus is abuse.
D
First of all, SSC is so much bullshit. Nothing in my relationship falls in the “framework” of SSC because we don’t, nor does anybody I know, even acknowledge SSC as having a place in BDSM.
Second, no-limits DOES exist. It’s just rare, and far too many people say it without realizing what it means.
Third, my own limits in my relationship weren’t even mentioned. I am not, right now, in a no-limit situation. Which isn’t to say that I won’t be or wouldn’t agree to it, in which case death is one of the acceptable consequences of entering a no-limit relationship. But no, I would not be happy about being murdered. Nor am I necessarily happy with many other aspects of things. Happiness wasn’t the question. ;-)
“First of all, SSC is so much bullshit.”
Agreed, to the nth degree!!
It’s all semantics, plain and simple.
One’s slave, is another’s submissive.
One’s abuse, is another’s use.
What one feels as “no limits” in itself is “limiting”.
While asking for opinion, one may not argue, only agree, or disagree.
My opinion…
Slave is property.
There is a disconnect between slave and Master.
For a Master to abuse a slave is to ruin something he had use for.
In my opinion, kaya is not slave, rather kaya is the super-submissive.
There could be abuse (in the classic sense) in any relationship.
I just (from what I’ve read in your blogs) don’t see it in yours and your Master’s relationship.
He uses you how he sees fit, you have given him enough power to do how he pleases with you.
Are you always pleased with his decisions on how he uses you?
No.
But, you have given him that power.
That isn’t abuse.
While this is an ok discussion, it’s one that’s over done.
Surely you know if you are being abused, or merely being used.
I’m certainly not seeking opinions to determine whether or not I’m being abused (as you seem to suspect?). I know I’m not. I’m not even saying I’m in a no-limit relationship because I’m not that either. I’m merely debating the concept of abuse and no-limits. I’m not talking about myself, or Master, at all.
Some words are defined by opinion, true. Master, slave, submissive, abuse… I’ll agree with that. But ‘no’ and ‘limits’? Nah. Those are pretty starkly defined. If someone chooses to pretend they aren’t clearly defined and wants to define it by “opinion”, then they’re merely trying to convolute the discussion. More of a “If you can’t dazzle them with brilliance then baffle them with bullshit.” or “It depends on what your definition of ‘is’ is.” type of situation. Not anything honest.
And.. just because something may be a battle of semantics doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be discussed.
As for people who should “surely” know they are being abused? That’s sort of what started this topic for me. People who are one day perfectly content in a no-limit M/s relationship until they break up and suddenly it wasn’t no-limit M/s at all, but they were being abused, boo hoo, and didn’t know it. I say bullshit. I don’t buy it at all.
???How can there be discussion without opinion???
Well I guess there could be I suppose, as long as only absolute facts are known to all, and everyone agrees not to bring up anything that can’t be backed up with fact.
I don’t suspect you think you’re being abused. Everyone that has read you for any length of time would know you’d state that out right.
“I don’t buy it at all.”
Nor I.
I doubt anything would ever get passed you, you’re too thinking of a person for that misdeed.
Stupid, naive, unthinking, you’re not
Thoughtful, honest, smart, that’s you.
Happy New Year, to you and yours.
i love you sweets and for the record, i agree. i think the key is making sure you know the person you’re agreeing to give up limits to well, so you won’t be murdered…
I swear anytime the subject of limits is brought up it either goes to death, dismemberment or child abuse. Every. Single. Time. Oy.
However, indeed, it all rests on who you enter into that agreement with. :-)
Safe, Sane and Consensual…
Safe… well things like play piercing and blood play to me don’t appear very safe, yet it’s done. Test for communicable diseases can be had and latex and precautions used. Bondage and water look to be a potent combination for disaster, yet the folks over at Kink.com seem to do just fine over at WaterBondage.com.
Once you understand the risks and issues of anything, whether it’s skydiving or BDSM… it’s human nature to push and test the limits. What was “unsafe” yesterday, might be safe today.
Sane is a matter of opinion. At one point in time, homosexuality, cross dressing and BDSM were all listed in the DSM of Mental Disorders. That certainly has changed. Quite frankly there are things that squick me out that fall within the “sane” according to some people.
Cutting, branding, needle play all appear completely insane to me. In the 20′s you would have been convicted and given a life sentence as a “white slaver” or something had you been caught doing these things. What was “insane” yesterday, might be perfectly “sane” now.
It certainly appears consensual to me.
So “no limits” might really be “limits undermined” in reality. Boundaries are pushed and explored a bit further, rougher, faster and less apologetic perhaps than other people can relate. The element of indifference or will of the Master certainly plays a strong role here.
And that’s pretty much why I reject SSC, in spite of how popular it is to shout it. :)
The element of indifference or will of the Master certainly plays a strong role here.
If one is going to give up any and all limits, the will of the Master plays the ONLY role.
LOL its all common sense..
If he halls off one day and punches you in the face breaking your jaw because you got him “angry” that’s abuse.. How is it not.
BDSM games.. well they’re not abuse, they are consensual, you like it.. he likes it.. everyone has a good time and no one is harmed.
I think we had a discussion some time back on LJ – hurt vs harm. Abuse vs. use this is it:
http://jenfuhh.livejournal.com/178070.html#cutid1
If he halls off one day and punches you in the face breaking your jaw because you got him “angry” that’s abuse.. How is it not.
I’m not saying that’s not abuse in any other relations. I’m saying it’s not abuse in a no-limit M/s relationship. If that’s a line that’s been crossed then it was a limit. See?
Abuse can easily exist in any relationship, bdsm, M/s, vanilla… *except* one where the partners have agreed that there are NO lines. No-limits, no lines to cross, even in a case where one ends up with broken ribs and black eyes.
In the case of your friend, what may or may not have been a no-limits beginning (I don’t recall if that was specified or not) clearly changed to a limited M/s relationship once he began a pattern of bahavior that she didn’t want to live with. Once outside of that realm of course it’s abuse. But.. what if she’d have told you that yes, he was behaving in exactly the same way but she was agreeable to the treatment, and that yes, he would probably end up killing her in a drunken rage but again, she was agreeable to those circumstances. If she *consented* to the terms of that no-limit scenario, would we then be expected to “rescue” her from herself? Should we decide for her what is acceptable as a limit or what is abuse vs. sadomasochism?
Would it have been the same feeling on your part had she willingly submitted to his behaviors up until the relationship fell apart and she THEN said “oh my, he was a drunken abuser!”?
I’m just picking your brain here, not in any way trying to belittle your friend’s, and your, experience. I’m endlessly fascinated with things like this.
LOL I’d think she needed to be saved from her self.
And try and help her and convince her to get away as much as possible.
Which is what I did.
I mean even abused wives are this way – they stay around thinking they “deserve” it.
If my Husband – pulled that shit on me.. he’d better kill me because if I get up LOL.. He’d loose His kneecaps (I say this w/ the deepest respect for Him in every way LOL because I KNOW it would never happen – maybe she did too, but then again she didnt spend 9 years w/ the man ). Because I respect myself – as a woman, a person, AND a submissive. We bottoms/slaves/subbies MUST have respect for ourselves – how could we enjoy our positions in life if we didnt? That’s a whole other post tho.. hmmmm I’ll be thinking on that one.
Yanno what.. that post is locked.. and I want people to be able to see it so Im reposting it as a comment here –
I read something recently in a freind’s journal that had to do with trust that a submissive has for a Dom in a TPE or Master/slave relationship.
I agree that she (or he) has to trust in said Master/Mistress’ judgement for them, etc. But not everyone’s so lucky.
What about when things go wrong, for example a good friend of mine, one of my best friends IRL in fact went through something where something ugly DID happen.
Here’s the story:
She met this man online and everything was love and roses, whips and chains and thorns, she visited him in California on several occasions and they fell in love. She agreed to wear his collar and in a lovely ceremony became his. She packed up her apartment, said goodbye to us all and off she went to her new life.
Her former New York contacts were kept to a minimum – due to the fact that well (at first I thought) – some of her friends here wern’t very good for her. I spoke to her master on teh phone many times, (even I myself thinking he was a great guy) she had been a cutter (she cut herself compulsively) she had stopped due to his influence, she had a wonderful new job, a nice home and in time signed everything over to him. She seemed to be blooming in his service like a rose. She seemed so blissfully happy that I could do nothing but offer my support. I told other friends here, if she’s happy we should be happy for her. I speak to her weekly, she loves where she lives. He bought her a car.. she’s in happy slave girl land. She sent me her suspension pictures. They sent letters/emails to me together.
About six months into the relationship I was invited to visit, on their dollar due to the fact that I was dead broke, and she was feeling very lonely without her gal pals. Then the “red light” feeling started. First he joked while on the phone at the same time with me and my friend – oh I’m gonna tie you to her when you get here – ha ha ha. Then, when speaking to me on the phone several times he propositioned me concerning his desire to “top” me while I was there. I said no thank you, my Husband doesnt permit to any play with another man where he’s not present and I’d just like my visit to be a friendly visit to enjoy my friend’s company. He agreed, and stopped for about a week, then things got pushy, I said flat out to him that I was not interested in persuing that kind of relationship with him, that my Husband wouldn’t permit it and would he please stop pushing the issue, that I submit to no one but my Husband and whom he wishes me to and not without him there. To tell you the truth, I really felt like he would do something against my will.. that I would be forced into something. Really, not kidding.
I mentioned this in passing to my friend that I was a bit miffed about this and I really didn’t feel comfortable with this kind of discussion, maybe I didnt push it enough – she basically said that he was just joking. I couldn’t. I just felt so uncomfortable about the whole situation (and him) that I canceled my trip.
Shortly after all this, say another three months or so I got a very cryptic message from her. Via LJ actually. I was still in contact with her via phone and email.. but I hadn’t heard from her in a while. It came down to basically she couldn’t mention anything for fear if he found out that I KNEW, he would cut her off from me. She became a virtual prisoner in her own home. He was driving her and picking her up from work, meeting her for lunch every day.
To make a long story NOT as long LOL – this pig started abusing her.. and not in the good way. I remember in another journal someone mentioned “Master wants to hurt me, not harm me” , well he was harming her. He started drinking heavy, and in his drunkeness he would beat her, black and blue in the fact. One night she called me from a hotel room, she said “I asked him to please get help for his drinking” and he close fisted punched me in the face”. He blackened both her eyes, he bloodied her nose, he broke her ribs. Then two days later she went back. Like the classic alchoholic abuser, he promised never to do it again, but of course he did.. again, and again, and again. She finally made the decsion to leave him (THANK GOD) because she felt he would kill her. She said she was packing her things and he took a gun and put it to her head, he pulled the “if I cant have you no one can routine. She called the police, they came and removed him.
A few days later she was packing HIS things up so he could leave the apartment and he came in. He attacked her YET AGAIN and this time, he really WAS going to kill her. The only thing that saved her life was that the neighbors heard the struggle, they broke down the door, and found him basically kneeling on her chest – she passed out with a T-shirt stuffed in her mouth, she was blue. He nearly killed her. She spent three days in the hospital, her face was so puffy I couldnt recognise her. He broke three of her ribs this time, her left wrist and dislocated her shoulder.
This time, she pressed charges (this all happened nearly TWO YEARS AGO) and she’s still going back and forth to court, they tried to blame it on her, HE TRIED TO SAY IT WAS PART OF THEIR RELATIONSHIP, they tried to use her live journal against her, and her myspace, she had to move two times and get her name address and phone number sealed by the courts (almost like a modified witness protection program) so she could get her life moving. Her family in NY are police officers and they did some nosing around and found out that he has actually done this to TWO OTHER WOMEN – in different states.
It’s only now that she’s stopped blaming her self. She had so much of the “Im a bad slave, I couldn’t please him” syndrome – she didnt get that HE WAS A BAD MAN through and through. Bad, not a man, less then a man, certainly not a master.
This could have happened to any one of us. She definately isn’t a stupid woman. She’s bright and articulate and thought the master of her dreams had come. Her true soul mate. When things started going wrong and she knew it, she couldn’t reach out due to embarrasment, shame, she felt stupid and thought she had no where to turn.. she almost left it too late.
How many of us have been swept off our feet? She was as careful as any of us were, she thought he was the “One” her Master forever.
Is it just a crap shoot?
And what about if it happened to you?
What if your Master/ Dom started drinking, or using drugs? Then started a cycle of abuse?
Personally, I agree that in a no limits situation there is no such thing as abuse. I am not sure if I believe there are people in no limits situations or not, though. I’m not saying there are not, I’m just not sure. Personally, I think 99% of people who say no limits actually mean they have parallel limits to their Owners. After all, most Dominants have limits too. It’s far easier to have no limits if the things the Dominant wants are in line with the things the slave wants.
Myself, I’m somewhere in the middle. I wouldn’t say I have no limits, but I have none expressed in my dynamic. If I were to say “No” in a definite way he would *probably* respect that, but it would also be the end of the relationship. Expressing preferences is not necessarily the same as expressing limits, either. Which any of us who have ever had our Owners run right over what we enjoy can attest to.
I think 99% of people who say no limits actually mean they have parallel limits to their Owners.
i think this is one of the truest things i’ve seen in this thread. when lots of folks say, “no limits” and you say, “well, what if your Mistress wanted to cut off your finger?” they will usually say, “well, She would never do that.”
well, guess what sparky that’s not what i asked. whether or not you feel they wil or will not perform an action was not hte question. the question was, “if you said NO LIMITS, then if they wanted todo that, then, what?”
and usually they’ll say, “well, then, i guess i would have to reconsider the relationship.”
oh, then, you mean add limits?
i talked to Sir (my Owner) about this, and He said He would claim our relationship as no limits, because in Consentual M/s (as opposed to against-the will black-market slave-trading) there is a built in limit: Leaving.
the only limit i have is my presence here. if i stay, then i am consenting without fail to whatever He chooses for me. if i find that i cannot deal with what He wants to do, my ONLY option is to leave. period.
which you also touched with this statement:If I were to say “No” in a definite way he would *probably* respect that, but it would also be the end of the relationship.
i think you made an extremely good reply here.
~melly
I think the difference here is that I do believe that a Master agrees to take on the responsibility for his slave’s care when he takes her in a “no limits” relationship. I suppose if he doesn’t, then it’s a different story, but I don’t think that’s M/s. TPE is just that: an exchange. She exchanges her freedom for his taking total responsibility for her. I think situations where he doesn’t are where D/s & S&M get a bad reputation, & I don’t think they are true M/s relationships.
Another thought here. I’ve said before that “no limits” doesn’t really mean no limits; it means you agree to accept his limits as yours. It means no limits of your own. You don’t get into that kind of relationship with someone whose limits are so far outside of what you are willing to do. I wouldn’t get into a relationship w/someone whose limits did not include not killing me, obviously, but I also wouldn’t get into one with someone who was into scat play. It doesn’t mean that I want to do the things he wants me to. I never thought I’d be drinking piss, but I have agreed to accept whatever limits he has as my own.
I’m not sure I’m being clear.
“It means you agree to accept his limits as yours.”
Thank you, Sinn! As i was reading the comments and that sad, sad tale this is the thought that continued to run thru my mind. For me, i don’t really have to worry about limits because Master’s are mine. When i accepted His collar and came to serve in His home, i knew the man well enough to know His beliefs, values, morality, character so the question of limits was less scary. Did i think i would do and have done some of the things that have transpired?? NO…but i also know His growth is mine and as iam becoming more willing to submit, the depth of my slavery grows.
Each journey is unique. We can share with each other as we pass this way, but none can ever walk in another’s shoes and should not judge. Abuse is Abuse. I don’t think calling it slavery changes it from being abuse. What kaya shares with us and sometimes calls abuse is NOT what was being described in that sad saga. That is a 110 times more likely to occur in the vanilla world if only because of the numbers and that for the most part in M/s relationships the parties usually come to some sort of agreement, if only “I lead, you follow.” Where abuse can happen in the most unlikely homes in all sectors of society.
BDSM is not by definition abusive…and for all the sex police out there that feel it necessary to save us from ourselves..they should get a life and read elsewhere…the net is big and there is plenty of choices in subject matter…
Thanks, beautiful(i LOVE the new year pix!!) for letting me share in this little rant…
Happy New Year!
s/nik
M: I like you.. you like me Here’s a collar and go TPE
s: I like you.. Yes Sir!
M: I like hot buttered rum, Billy Joel Records and wearing big clown shoes – I expect you to learn to enjoy these things too. Oh BTW – I chop heads of kittens and hang them in my basement for fun – you have no limits you have play w/ dead kittens too.
s:(common sense kicks in) UHHH … NO
lol SORRY.. was feelin silly.
Kaya you never fail to make me smile and think and enjoy you.
I hope you never leave us.
Kaya, you do realize that once you deny the masters responsibility to take care of the slave’s well being that you are are par with Sade, for whom to destroy another is just human nature, right? Perhaps, but this can never be OK with society nor with the BDSM subculture. If BDSM ever allows such a mindset to develop all who practice it will be hounded out by the police, all who inflict harm by way of power exchange will be locked-up, and rightfully so.
No limits is theoretically possible, and such a negotiated agreement could preclude any act being labeled abuse such as you argue, but such an arrangement would be an act of evil. Regard for the well being of all parties is the Maginot Line between exploration and insanity. Masters looking out for their slaves is not optional, you may make it optional for you but society will not let your opinion stand. Many have been dragged kicking and screaming to their cells and psychiatric wards , they can think what ever they like but they are ignored until they conform to the norms of sanity.
Not that i am saying you are insane mind you, I am pointing out where your argument fails. Some slaves are induced into a head space where their masters total disregard for their welfare is acceptable to the slave, but it should never be the view of the master. If it is he should be put away for a very long time.
i have been asked, by my Owner, to read and comment on this blog entry. This discussion has taken place quite a few times between my Owner and myself.
i am a no limit slave. What my Owner does to me may, to some, be seen as ‘abuse’, i do not see it that way. What he chooses to do to me, is his prerogative, and i have no right to question, hesitate or protest, nor do i have any form of safeword.
Would i be happy if He chose to murder me? No, probably not; however, if that is what He wants to do, i have no right to question Him, nor any choice in the matter. i gave my life to Him completely and unconditionally. To me, that doesn’t mean i gave Him my life completely and unconditionally ‘except for’…
Obviously, i DO believe that ‘no limits’ exists, and i have complete trust in my Owner to do with me what He wants, and whether that means that i am beat bloody, or held and cuddled by Him, my purpose is to serve and please Him, and i will always do that with no limits.
Just my two cents…
Take care…
slave2JS
Okay I am going to go a little against the grain here (Than again when don’t I) to answer the question can there be abuse in an M/s relationship? Yes, I think there can be forms or degrees of abuse in any relationship. If you break or destroy something beyond repair that is abuse. A person has got to be able to function in life. Now the question that needs an answer maybe does a Master have the right to abuse said slave. Again the answer is yes they may absolutely have that right depending on the relationship.
Master and I have been in the lifestyle for about 12 years now.To be quite honest in the beginning I loved the thought of saying I had no limits. There was a rush I got by the thought of being totally and completely owned. Then I matured and thought a lot about what I would do, what I wanted to try, and what I wasn’t willing to do under any circumstance. ~ Waits for the collective gasps ~ Over the years as Master and I have grown together my “won’t do” list has become almost non-existent and my “will try” list has increased exponentially. This is typically common as the level of trust in a master slave relationship grows.
I agree Limits are such a touchy subject because there are those that cling to the theory that in order to be a slave one is not allowed any limits other then the limits set by their Master. Then there are those that say yes I am a slave but I do have limits and there are just something I will not do under any circumstances. I personally see nothing wrong with either side as long as any and all actions fall into the category of SSC (Yes I am a believer in SSC). Apparently kaya and I though living close together belong to 2 totally different munch groups as everyone in my location firmly supports the belief that there has got to be an established degree of safety, sanity and consentuallity even if only at the beginning when you accepted the collar).
I am a huge huge huge believer that prior to accepting a collar communication on this very subject is a must. It is essential for the success of the relationship that a slave and a master discuss and establish each other’s limits so that once the collar is placed there are no surprises for either party. That being said I don’t think not having limits allows a slave to consider herself off the hook for choices that are outside the law. I don’t think a slave should ever allow the statement that “I was only following my Master’s orders” to be a valid defense to any wrongdoing that harms outside parties. Being a slave doesn’t give you the right to shut off your brain and follow like a blind sheep into a world of destruction. I also would never advocate a new relationship to be without limits and boundaries as this is something a couple should grow into.
I like to consider myself a no “limits” slave within boundaries. I know that doesn’t make a lot of sense but the reality is there are simply things I will not do. Don’t get me wrong I wouldn’t dream of telling my Master no unless I felt the situation was not safe, not sane, or not consensual. I don’t necessarily mean my consent but the consent of a third party.
For example there are the age old question asked by those that try and out question you or shake the faith you have in your role and ask what if he ordered you to have sex with a child, animal (bestiality), or a dead person (necrophilia). To me this is an easy question to answer as a child, animal, or the deceased can NOT give consent thus it violates the core foundation of SSC. I have also had the opportunity to field questions, as far out as what if he wanted to amputate or alter part of your body. Again this would fall under the question is it sane? I can’t forsee amputating anything as sane unless it was a medical life saving procedure. so again I would point out it violates the rules of SSC. All illegal activities also fall under this category as well… what if he ordered you to do drugs, rob a bank, steal from a store, or have sex with a stranger? All these activities could cause harm to a 3rd party or the destruction of a human life.
Does this make me less of a slave? Some say yes but I don’t believe so. I like to believe it makes me a responsible human with morals that can’t be shaken just because I have given myself to another. I always love those submissives who come back with the “then you aren’t a real slave because real slaves obey regardless… they aren’t given the opportunity to say no”. To them I always point out that even hundreds of years ago if a slave thought their life to be in grave danger they in fact would run… why would I be any different if pushed into a place I felt my life was in jeopardy? I personally don’t believe anyone who says I would sit there and let him kill me because I said I had no limits. Until you have been in that situation you can not say how you will react.
I strongly encourage anyone entering a M/s relationship to be honest with themselves and how far they are willing to go and to find themselves in the same frame of mind with their partner before declaring themselves a no limit slave.
great post kaya thanks for sharing and I hope I haven’t taken up to much of your space :)
I commented on your other post, but reading through the responses here, I think I have a little more to say. I pretty much agree with what blush said on the last post. I’m not sure that true “no limits” relationships are actually possible, but that might just be because it scares me to think they might truly exist. But I think abuse can exist in any relationship whether or not consent is there especially when one’s psychological stability is called into question. A person who agrees to be in a no limits relationship may be abused but might think that its the only treatment he/she deserves so she accepts it, even craves it. In a way, it is semantics. Until she says it is abuse and says no to it, there is little anyone can do as long as it’s what she thinks she wants. One person’s abuse is another’s lifestyle and it’s so impossible to know what really goes on in a relationship when looking from the outside in.
Kaya,
I don’t have the same problem that many here have with SSC, though I do believe that something vital needs to be recognized about it. All three terms, safe, Sane, and consensual, are subjective terms. That means that each person has to decide for themselves what is safe, what is sane, what it means to give consent. As an acrophobe, I view skydiving as an insane, unsafe activity, yet there are probably skydivers who would look at my willingness to walk, alone, in the dark of night, through the “bad” section of town, as insane and unsafe as well. Consent is also a subjective term. Even within the “safe word” crowd, the idea of what is consent differs from the vanilla world. D/s generally considders consent to be the absence of denial. In other words, if the submissive doesn’t use his/her safe word, then they have consented. In the vanilla world, many see consent as something that has to be explicitly given. The lack of response is not considdered consent.
This said, I think there are better ways to get across what SSC is trying to say. The other one I have heard is RACK, risk aware consensual kink. This better descibes what the community really wants from its members. Take the time to make oyurself aware of what will and could happen. That means being familiar with the activities involved in whatever your kimk is, as well as knowing who the hell you’re playing with. The aware part even implies knowing what constitutes consent between you and your partner. RACK also acknowledges that much of what the BDSM community engages in has an inherently higher than normal level of danger. This is what goes unsaid so much in the SSC discussions. It’s not about being totally safe and that the play itself is sane. It;s about making whatever you’re doing as safe as YOU need it to be (let’s face it, breath play has an upper limit on how safe it can be). Sane doesn’t mean that the play is sane in some objective standard, it means (IMHO) that you and your partner are metally healthy (i.e. capable of making informed descisions).
Of course, this is the opinion of your resident vanilla virgin, but it is what it is. Hopefully this look from the outside has helped, or at least entertained. :)
Dave
“Bullshit. I think cries of abuse are a smokescreen used to distract from the real issue. How stupid one might feel to have gotten into something they didn’t understand and couldn’t control.”
What an apt observation! This “not understanding” and “not controlling” can feel awfully fun at times and terribly crappy at others. I guess that is the consensual non-consent bit! But I wonder if ever there can be an informed consent of what you will be giving up your consent to given that people change and grow and evolve…
But, hey, even so, I still think there is healthy vs unhealthy M/s and abuse is also real. Frankly kaya you are loved to pieces and your M is very invested in you.
–submissiveheart (previously known as puppy)
All I can say is WOW. I’m fairly new to the lifestyle & Master & I are still trying to find our way. But what I’ve learned so far is, I can not nor will I try and pass judgement on someone else’s relationship. I can only concern myself with mine. Although I am a slave, I have the option to leave at any time. I don’t live the lifestyle of “no limits” because I don’t think I could; however, I agree with Kaya, if there are “no limits”, there is no abuse. I myself have a safe word. I used to feel bad about that, after reading other blogs & so forth. I felt that I didn’t measure up to other slaves. But Master & have learned that “happiness” for us, may not be what is “happiness” for another & we live according to what is right for “us”. I think some subs get into “no limit” relationships thinking its a game or full of fun & so forth. But it’s a reality & not a game. If you “opt” to be in a “no limits” relationship, then you “opted” for whatever your Dom/Master/Top or whatever you call it gives you. The issue is with you agreeing to such treatment. I’m not an eloquent writer as some of you are but I hope my little opinion was understood. Subs/Bottoms/Slaves or whatever you call yourself have a CHOICE to decide who collars they wear or what type of relationship they are in. I choose to have limits. My limits may be far lower or higher than some others, but they are mine.
It seems as if the subs here judge other relationships so much. Why? Happiness is different for everyone and each person should be allowed to find “their own happiness”. I’m sure some of my “Vanilla” family would think i’m being abused, when i’m happier than I’ve ever been in my life. Sorry for rambling on.
~DovesCagedBird~
You’ll find that, unfortunately, people in the bdsm lifestyle can be some of the MOST judgmental on the planet. There are some who think their way is the ONLY way, the true way, the right way.. and the rest of us are “doing it wrong”.
Oh well. I’ve learned to just do what I do no matter what anyone thinks of it. However, I do still have opinions and I do express them. What people need to keep in mind is that an opinion is not a judgment. It’s merely an expressed thought.
BTW.. I don’t know if you meant to leave your link or not, but if you did, it’s not working. just thought I’d let you know that. :-)
Well in no limits, do you mean the slave has no limits?….okay, but what if the Master has limits because of His values and morals. He will not do certain things because He does not believe they are healthy. He then loses control and in anger crosses His own limits. So He is the Master and has the ultimate say, and the slave had no limits, but he crossed His own and hurt both of them. Just wanting an opinion.