Like it or not-
I know I’ve asked this before, but I keep coming back to it in my head so I’ve obviously not answered it well enough.
So I’ll ask you fine people.
The question is: If it’s not expected for you to do anything you don’t want to do, are you still submitting? If you’re never asked to do anything you don’t like to do, is it still submission?
I’m leaning heavily toward no.
I’m all kinds of behind people doing what they do and calling it what they want-
But.
If everything you’re doing is stuff that you would do on your own anyway, and the only difference now is that someone is telling you to do what you were already doing, and you’re never challenged or pushed or expected to, you know, actually submit to something or someone…. I have trouble seeing the submission.
I dunno. Maybe I’m being too elitist.
Thoughts?
Like
Uncategorized | kaya | 
Thursday September 17th, 2009 12:21pm
I’m going with no. Part of what I get out of this lifestyle is being challenged. If I’m only doing what I like then there is no challenge for me. It also sounds suspiciously a lot like Topping from the Bottom. “Sure I’ll submit to you, but I don’t do anything I don’t like, so here is what you can tell me to do and expect results?”
I don’t get it.
That being said, there are things that I have tried and HATED, those things were either not done again, or used in the future as a punishment. But that was at the discretion of Him, and those were things that weren’t on my original limit list.
I’ve thought the same myself reading some blogs, which wil remain nameless for fear of causing a storm….
[rq=653750,0,blog][/rq]Update
So I agree with you on principle but I know that for me, sometimes I need rules of things I would *usually* always do on my own but sometimes just don’t want to for whatever reason…like ya know…school work or going to the gym. 75% of the time I do it without any qualms but having the rule there means I do it 100% of the time and my laziness doesn’t get in the way. Just my two cents
Well the problem is defining “what you don’t want to do”. I had this conversation with my Dom/boyfriend/whatever you want to call him. I started telling him that I didn’t want to do stuff I didn’t want to do anymore, and he was like, “How the fuck is that submitting?”
So, yeah. I see the issue.
But the thing is, what I meant was that I didn’t want to do stuff that was so awful it was just going to crush me. Stuff that made me resent him, stuff that put me so far beyond my limits that it just wasn’t okay. I can understand that some people don’t play with safe words or with limits, and I have a lot of respect for that. We do. So by definition, I am refusing to submit to some things.
There are still millions of things out there that I don’t want to do that I still do for him. I don’t want to constantly show him my boobs or go without a bra. That’s a different level of not wanting than “I don’t want you to arrange a gang bang for me.”
Oh, and by the way? He still asks, suggests, proposes, and mind fucks me with these things all the time. I have no doubt we will get to much of it (like the gangbang) down the line. But right now, if I have a firm no about something, especially if we’ve tried it already, he (mostly sorta pretty much) listens.
I don’t expect others to agree with me, but this is how it feels to me and you asked, so . . .
[rq=654161,0,blog][/rq]Letters from the Lair
I like your comments and think them to be more rational and less delusional than most. No one ever– EVER– does anything that they do not wish to do. Now, having said that, we all do things that we wish we hadn’t done, and things that we don’t like to do, but if you’re doing it, it’s because the alternative is less appealing to you. You always have a choice, and you’re insisting on limits makes you no less a submissive than a “slave” who chooses to have none. It’s all subjective, and don’t let any supposed purists suggest otherwise.
Kaya,
There’s so many variations on what people do in terms of submission that I don’t think it’s possible to clearl deliniate what is and isn’t submission. Perhaps the challenge for some is to do these things at the request of another. We all have things we do alone that we would never want to do in front of others. It may be that the (hypothetical) person in question isn’t ready for that level of challenge. They may be at the baby steps stage, and perhaps they’ll never leave it. But, still, in their minds, they’re submitting and enjoying it.
I think it’s much like going to a BDSM party and seeing two whippings; one with a bunny flogger that doesn’t even turn the skin red and the other with a single tail that leave the sub covered in welts. Both, however, were what the dom and sub wnated to, and enjoyed doing. Both are capable, depending on the presentation, being erotic for the spectators.
Let sleeping subs lie.
Dave
I am going to sit on the fence here and say both yes and no (and risk getting splinters in my butt from all that fence sitting!).
If it is simply that he hasn’t asked for anything that you would be unwilling to do, but you would do it if asked, then I would say it is still submission.
But if he wouldn’t ask because he knows you wouldn’t do it anyway, then it isn’t.
Palus very rarely asks me to do something I wouldn’t do – mostly because I can’t think of anything he has asked that I would be unwilling to do anyway. But if he found/thought of something, and I was not entirely overjoyed to be doing it – well I would suck it up, and get on with it. That I consider to be submission.
But to be honest, it is all horses for courses… different people define submission in entirely different ways.
If everything that he wants me to do is something that I’m okay with doing, then yeah, I think it’s submission. It’s not a very challenging form of submission, and I ‘m not likely to get much out of it, but I’m doing what he wants me to do (and, as Taja says above, presumably he isn’t censoring anything he is requesting).
But I’d rather be challenged, so that I can look back on it and see how far I’ve come, and how much more I’m able to do.
I’m curious to know if the lack of challenge would be a deal-breaker for you. If your submission is a gift, can you ask for it back?
complacency is a disease of the modern world..whether it is in vanilla life or otherwise….yet the need to be challenged, pushed, find the new limit is in every sub, otherwise we would not be seeking a mentor (Dom/Master)..we need somebody to push us. The key is the balance part – the trust part, you trust that he knows your capabilities, your true limits…one way or another you have laid the ground work with this person. In my mind the danger comes when a sub “allows” herself to be pushed, challenged by one who is not her Master/Dom/Mentor..
But hey…what the hell do i know?
Well, I’m one of those people who believes submission is a character trait. Like being outgoing or shy; if one has the innate urge to be submissive to another sexually or relationship-wise, then that is part of who they are. Regardless of whether or not they are actively submitting to another or not.
And, you know, expressing that desire runs the gamut from people who naturally do it in their relationship and have no idea there is even a name for it, all the way to slavery and BDSM sports.
I don’t notice the ways I “submit” much anymore, outside of sexually. It’s become natural for me to do what Dan says to do. I don’t fight it anymore or even think about it; I just do it. I guess that means I’m not doing much against my will, since I’m so used to fetching and serving or doing whatever I’m told. In the beginning I would object or have to force myself because I worried about losing my identity but that didn’t happen so I let go of that fear.
So am I still submitting even though I no longer object to doing as I’m told and I even enjoy it?
I say yes I am still submissive. I say I’m just doing a very good job of it. ;) Well, according to what Dan wants. And it’s about what he wants, yes?
Outside of sex, Dan was never interested in pushing boundaries with me; he just wanted his peace and quiet and wanted me happy, too, so our life runs smoothly and there is happiness and harmony.
So yeah, I think I’m still submitting even though I don’t fight it anymore. I don’t think disliking what you’re told to do has anything to do with submission.
Yes! These are exactly the words I was trying to find :) Here.. lemme go add my own thoughts and totally botch it .
The Man I serve has never been into pushing either of our limits… developing me.. or creating challenges persay. He wants to live His life… His way. I am lucky enough He takes me along for the ride. So I do things His way . Even if I think they are silly sometimes lol.
I don’t want to be forced to bend to another’s will (in the extreme)it just pisses me off and I have a hard time letting go of that. I know in the beginning I struggled to stay within His guidelines, but not so much anymore. Yet I feel as *submissive* now to Him as ever. Maybe more so..
It wouldn’t be submission for ME. Part of me NEEDS to be forced to do things, or even have crappy “options” presented so I can sacrifice my wants and do what HE wants, even without threat or anything. That’s my form of submission.
I mean, I could go take college courses today and take ALL 101 classes in subjects I already know and get a 4.0 GPA, but I wouldn’t be comfortable waltzing around telling everyone I’m a “perfect university student who aces every course!” or anything.
I’d be telling the TRUTH, but… Not really.
Olympic-level athletes who only ran races with amateurs and then said, “NO ONE has EVER beat me!” would be telling the TRUTH, but… Not really.
Yanno?
I mean, maybe that person has a true desire to submit to the will of another against his or her on will. Maybe not. It’s hard to tell without a challenge – without a comparison.
If that person REFUSES to submit to the will of the person they claim to be submissive to, and ONLY “submits” to what they want to do anyway? That’s just having things their own damn way and trying to call it something else.
Which, more power to ‘em. Call it whatever you want. But don’t trick yourself into thinking it’s the same as the GENERAL way “submissive” is used in the BDSM circles.
~Chloe
[rq=655231,0,blog][/rq]Randomness Numero Cuatro
I MADE TYPOS. GOD DAMMIT.
against his or her own will.
Basically, I don’t care what they call it. It people want to do what they want to do when they want to do it and NEVER anything else and still pretend they really sumbit (btw, definitions include: Accept or undergo, often unwillingly… Yield to another’s wish or opinion… Refer to another person for decision or judgment… Yield to the control of another…
So by definition, at MOST, it’s “episodic submission.”) to someone else? Kayfine. wanna do that and call it that, that’s GREAT. Go for it.
But do I think that’s the way it is “defined” by MOST of the BDSM crew? Nah. Issues will only arise if both sides are insisting “no, THIS is submission!”
I realized I’m sitting here saying “omg, we need more words!” MORE buzzwords and definitions in this community is totally what we need… Heh. I’m a troublemaker!
~Chloe, who prolly made MORE typos and is going to pretend not to care.
[rq=655284,0,blog][/rq]Randomness Numero Cuatro
Wanna be my bff? I totally adore the way you write. <3
Heh. Sweeeeeeeet. Sounds like a plan. Though, being as your name has no link, I can’t come verbally vomit all over your blog. So, while you will probably mourn the fact that you can’t have my vomit for a LONG time… I’m sure we’ll get through this. *nods*
~Chloe, oh she of desirable vomit!
[rq=663966,0,blog][/rq]Randomness Numero Cuatro
But I HAVE a blog. I just don’t link it ‘cuz it’s like … A REALLY LONG TIME since I wrote in it.
http://dakrish.blogspot.com << That’d be the one. I did a quick stunt into the blogosphere, realized I’m WAY to unorganized for it and pretty much up and left.
Btw. You’re SO being RSS-stalked now. *stares at through peeping-tom-cam*
Chloe,
you ab-sew-lutely crack me up!
You barfing goddess, you!
Nilla
[rq=664852,0,blog][/rq]HNT
I don’t know if I can say no here. Many submissive women consider housework and personal niceties to be part of their submission. They call it service thus they consider it part of their submission.
Ok, if that is how you see it. I see it as an expression of affection, a common courtesy, a nice thing to do. So I would not necessarily consider it submissive.
But I can see how some do consider it a sign of submission so by all means call it submission. I mean after all, it seems that submission is making sure he gets what makes him happy. Well, if I am happy when he is happy, I could conceivably never be submitting.
So I would vote yes, even if you like it or would do it anyway, it is submitting if it is in response to a request. CD
It’s not really a question for me because Master expects more than I would ever think or want to do on my own.
Are there relationships where both people always want the same thing with the same weight of importance?
I would agree with you on the no because I just don’t see it being a natural occurrence. If it does exist, I would say the lack of challenge of doing what you want to do is not the essence of submission.
As they say, it’s not about you, it’s about him – although in reality we know it’s about both of us to have a happy, succesful union.
They test us in our boundaries, we trust in them for their safe-keeping and monitoring.
Like some others here, I believe if you’re doing what your Master wants it’s submission, whether it’s something you like/wanted or not. It’s his will.
I’d classify being pushed beyond your limits as a CHALLENGE.
Just a thought – Are you getting bored being in the house and a new Grandma? Maybe a new hobby? Something that would be good for him and you! A local cooking class or belly-dancing class or something or the sort.
Nope; it’s not submission.
And this comment is also coming from somebody who is NOT made to do anything i don’t want to do. It makes it seem as if there is nothing different in this relationship versus a few of my previous (vanilla if you will) ones at times. i crave challenges and having my limits pushed. i need that occasional moment where i’m “put in my place.” When that isn’t happening, i don’t feel like i’m submitting; unless i consider the idea of submitting to myself.
It also gives me a feeling that the other person doesn’t really care about their needs; or else hasn’t thought about how some of their “darker” (if that’s what you want to call it) needs could be met. i want to be the one that He uses to meet His needs; even if i don’t like the actual act itself.
Then again; this question may pop up: What if that’s what He (the Owner/Dominant/Master/Top/Whatever) wants? He (or She) doesn’t want their submissive (or whatever label you want) to do these things; isn’t that a form of submission in some light?
Maybe He’s just so such a sadistic person that He knows you want to be told to do stuff that you don’t want to do and therefor doesn’t tell you to do it? (i stole that quote from somebody else *winks*).
Either way…frustrating as hell, huh?
[rq=655533,0,blog][/rq]Used
Okay, okay, okay, okaaaayyyy…
So. Is THIS submissive?:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zU6Qmc56FLE
I dunno, he’s smiling the whole time. ;)
OMFG LMAO
Oh god I loved that! you Go, Glen CoCo!
[rq=662288,0,blog][/rq]Because He Likes It
It’s an interesting question… and an interesting discussion. I don’t get much out of these “is it or isn’t it submission” conversations. Maybe I’m just too old… What I do wonder is whether the desire or longing to be “challenged” as a criteria for being a “real” submissive runs dangerously close to the line where WE define what the DOMINANT MUST DO in order to create the power dynamic.
I think that what I do all day everyday is for Him and about Him. It just is the way my life is. How I feel about that is really just not an issue — like it or not. Some of what I do I enjoy. Other things; not so much. Doesn’t matter. It is all still driven by His will and His vision. All that “challenge me” and “expand my boundaries” stuff is me wanting to drive. And in my world, I don’t get to do that. Period
[rq=655848,0,blog][/rq]You Might Be a Wannabe
Well… If that’s the case, what happens when you run out of things you won’t do?
Cause, like, my limits are waning. Things I never would have done in a million years seven years ago, I’ve done recently without batting an eyelash.
So if you run out of things you won’t do – which, you know, could happen, maybe… or at least, I could run out of things within the realm of things *He’ll* do – do you cease being submissive?
I dunno, kiddo.
[rq=656246,0,blog][/rq]Tuesday Night – His Idea of Aftercare
for me, just because i did it, or would do it if he asked without making a fuss, or have done it so long i’m USED to it doesn’t mean it’s something i WANT to do. and doing it because he says so is submitting.
or likewise, doing a thing i normally might do, but on a time schedule. for example, i will readily shave my cooch. i HATE unshaven cooch, and would shave it anyway, but it’s a requirement. and not only is it a requirement, i have days for it. tuesday, thursday and saturday. whether or not i chose to shave monday, whether or not i’m going anywhere,d doing anything, whether or not i’m even where he IS.
and likewise always leaving the bathroom door open. i don’t have a PROBLEM with it, per se, but it’s not something i would normally do. but i have to do it. and that makes it submitting.
brushing my teeth every morning? not submitting. going shopping? not submitting. NOT going through the do-it-yourself checkout because he says not to? submitting, even though it’s to the point now where i barely even notice they’re there, because i can’t use them.
you mean there’s an automatic feature on the coffeepot? really? can’t use it. doesn’t matter. but just because i’m USED to it doesn’t mean that i’m not submitting.
what i’m saying is, i don’t have to have NEW or BIGGER thing to continue submitting. the old things keeping on going works just fine.
Master’s ~melly
I think that we would all be better off if we shared a common language, if we could communicate effectively. If we were to do that words would have definitions, and not everyone would be allowed to use particular words to discribe their life. If they used a word that had a definition that did not hold in their practice of BDSM then they would be lying.
But, we don’t have a language. “submission” means what ever each person wants it to mean, which is the same thing as saying that it does not mean anything at all.
I think the *fact* that you have to do stuff that you don’t like – regardless of whether you actually have to do it or not – is submission.
The fact that the threat is there, the possiblity is there, the blanket acceptance of doing another’s will is there, is enough to call it ‘submission’.
Well, that’s my take on it anyway :)
P.S Do you find yourself thinking all sorts of deep random stuf when you’re cleaning? I do…Maybe that’s why I haven’t thought anything deep and meaningful recently ;)
[rq=656652,0,blog][/rq]The one where I start out with nothing to say and I end up getting all philosophical on your ass
It really depends on what happens when the person is presented with something they DON’T want to do. I mean it’s all chocolate doughnuts and then one day the chocolate smells just a little like shit. If you still eat that shitty doughnut, I’ll say you’re submissive. If they submit then, I’m willing to say that they’re submissive and until that day, have been lucky as fuck.
The Norseman’s Kitten.. who is quite obviously craving chocolate doughnuts…
[rq=656720,0,blog][/rq]Because He Likes It
THIS!
having a submissive personality is not he same thing as actively submitting.
i AM a submissive. whether i am actively submitting or not depends ont he situation. frequently, i am, because most of the time, i’m doing, or not doing, something because of His instructions. for example, right now, i’m not using swear words, even though i’d really like to, because Master forbids me to randomly swear, and to do so at all without permission. and i’m also sitting in a chair, but ONLY because i’m at the computer, because otherwise, i’m not allowed to sit on the furniture, and i KNOW that if weren’t at the computer right nwo, or if i were on my netbook instead of the big machine, i’d be on the floor.
submitting is an action. submissive is a quality.
i’m with you that if you NEVER do anything you wouldn’t normally do (not just something that you don’t really MIND doing, but something that wouldn’t fall in your normal, everyday goings-on if the D type wasn’t in the picture) then you’re not engaged in active submission.
i am submissive all the time. (likewise, dominant all the time, since i ahve that trait too) but sometimes, i have an active submission. sometimes, i don’t! sometimes, i’m sitting around the house, doing my housework, which i woudl do anyway, listening to music, and singing out loud.. all of which i would normally do… but then all of a sudden, the song has a swear word, and i hum it, or just stay silent for that word instead of singing it. i just submitted.
some ways are more subtle and softer than others, but they’re still ways of submitting. i’m submitting a LOT during the day, but not constantly. (i am not submitting when i’m asleep. sorry. )
Master’s ~melly
okay, so…if, as has been said here, one is not truly submitting unless it is against one’s will or distasteful or not something one would do otherwise (“make me a drink, fucking suck my cock, show me your pussy, do it because I said so” etc., and in every case, you would rather not do that because you are tired, doing something else, whatever) if it *has* to be against your initial inclination…is there such a thing as submitting with joy?
Can you submit and enjoy it? If he tells you to kneel and suck his cock and you kneel and do that and love it…does that mean you didn’t submit? Even though before that you were comfortably watching your favorite TV show?
Does the act of feeling joy in obeying him negate the submission in doing what you would not have done otherwise?
This is exactly the conundrum I feel in thinking about this topic. Plus, I am ALWAYS hesitant to say “Situation A is NOT submission” because for somebody, Situation A is exactly the submission that person needs and wants. I don’t have the right to pass judgement on anybody else’s definitions of submissive/dominant behavior or lifestyle, and I’d like to think that others would have that same respect for me.
I’d say it’s not submitting, but that doesn’t mean the person isn’t being submissive. Submission is an attitude, an approach, a mindset… we can learn this from your own writing, Kaya! So in many cases I imagine the submissive is being submissive, even if they aren’t submitting.
I was thinking more that if the “sub/slave” or whatever can say “er, actually I don’t feel like doing that right now”, and have that accepted as a reason not to do it, then I’m puzzled as to how that relationship can be defined as a power exchange relationship.
[rq=659669,0,blog][/rq]Update
Well, a power exchange relationship need not be a total power exchange. There are often degrees of power, the parameters of which are agreed upon formally by both parties. And that’s still a valid relationship, with dominance and submission going on. Maybe it’s not 100 percent of the time but who said it has to be?
As for saying I don’t feel like doing something when asked, I’ve done that. I’m expected to, actually. If I’m not feeling well or I’ve hurt myself and he asks me to get him a drink or whatever task I’m expected to do for him and I don’t speak up about being ill or hurt, I’ll get into trouble. I’ve done that, hurt my foot, but I get up and limp over to fetch for him and he’ll say, “Why didn’t you tell me you were hurt?” Then I get the scowl and the lecture and scolding and all that. *rolls eyes*
He knows I want to obey him, he knows from long history that if I say “I don’t want to”, I have a good reason for it.
On the other hand, if you mean a snotty, “I don’t feel like it, asshole, get your own fucking drink” well…yes, that wouldn’t be very sub, lol! And I don’t think I would have the balls to say that, ahahaha! Oh no no no…*grins*
But even then, if a couple has a relationship where it’s okay for the sub to “turn off” their submission sometimes, more power to them. That’s their business, whatever floats their boat. I would never point and say, “HA! POSEUR! You’re not a REAL sub!” How do I know they aren’t getting more bang for their buck by doing it part time than I am doing it full time? Maybe it’s more thrilling for them to go back and forth. I can’t do that because it upsets me to go back and forth; I like things steady and comfortable, switching roles all the time would be far too confusing for me. I don’t like change. At all.
But maybe not for them, maybe they like it like that. Dunno, we’re all so different, with different needs and desires.
“if you mean a snotty, “I don’t feel like it, asshole, get your own fucking drink”
Yeah. And, not only does he gets his own drink, that sort of response from her is ACCEPTABLE. Her submission is dependant on her mood. Entirely.
“I would never point and say, “HA! POSEUR! You’re not a REAL sub!”
I would. Because it’s true.
I’m not questioning whether or not it’s fulfilling for them or makes them happy. I’m challenging the idea of her being a submissive when her submission starts and ends with her being in charge.
She is not a sub.. but he might be!
“She is not a sub.. but he might be!”
Bwa-ha-ha! Well, it wouldn’t be the first time I’ve watched that scenario. Dan and I actually have a little skit we do for amusement. I mock-yell “Dom me, damn it! No, NOT LIKE THAT! LIKE THIS! OMG! YER DOIN’ IT WRONG!” And Dan mock whines, “But you promised you’d be sub! You promisssssed! Be sub! BE MORE SUB!”
And we die laughing.
‘Cause I’ve watched couples do that very thing. And it’s funny, I’m sorry. And they don’t know what’s wrong and I’m sure as hell not going to tell them.
Bite my face off, they would. “Whaddya mean, we’ve got it backwards? SHUT UP YOU!” AHAHAHA!
I thought about this post all evening as I cleaned dishes, tidied the kitchen, tried to figure out what to do with 6 gallons of fresh made spag. sauce…
Now, I’m not an owned slave, but still, in my relationship, there are these…unspoken obligations. I am the SAHM, my house, my job. You can be certain that if I DON’T do a certain job, like dishes or laundry, it IS mentioned, sometimes scathingly and she is as vanilla as they come. But what really gets me is that no one says a damn fucking damn thing when they ARE done, done well. Okay, no one is going to say every day, oh honey (or cunt, or whatever!) the kitchen looks great! after coming home from a tough day at the office. But srsly…a wee bit of “good girl” would go a long way to making it all feel…well was going to say better, but the best word choice is “acknowledged”, that what we do has value to them, too.
Okay, rant done (who knew?!)
Nilla
[rq=660648,0,blog][/rq]HNT
From Master of kaya.
*But what really gets me is that no one says a damn fucking damn thing when they ARE done, done well.*
I do, and I even let her know I appreciate her, her slavery and submission and our relationship. So it doesn’t go unnoticed or uncommented on.
Mok
Master of Kaya, I’m glad you do that. I think it’s very important. I love being told I’m a good girl and that I’ve done well. When he notices how hard I’m trying and tells me he appreciates it, I love that so much. I’m glad you tell Kaya that too. :)
Thank you, Sir, for your reply! Maybe you could call my nilla wife and let her know how nice that is to hear!
Nilla
[rq=665058,0,blog][/rq]HNT
I secretly think Scott told us this because he was sick of meeting people in real life or talking to people off-blog and having them shriek, “Oh Em Gee, BUT… You’re so NICE!!!!”
That’d do my eardrums in.
On-topic… I LOVE being told I’m doing a good job. I got told by Antonio that he was proud of me the other night! *wiggles with glee*
~Chloe
[rq=677163,0,blog][/rq]Randomness Numero Cuatro
Oh, my OwnerType always tells me when I do things well. He tells me what he likes, and that I’ve done a good job.. that I look pretty, all that good stuff. But for some reason I still get all out of shape when he chooses to call me on my faults…
[rq=663629,0,blog][/rq]Because He Likes It
To me, it is not submitting. I’ve been feeling disgruntled lately because I’m not asked to submit. I take care of the house, but I’d do that anyway. If I don’t… then stuff doesn’t get done. There are no corrections, no repercussions. She has few demands for my time, and doesn’t ask for anything I don’t want to give. She would never dream of humiliating me.
And that’s the way she wants it, lately. She’s the boss, right?
So why do I feel like running away to join the circus??
Thank GOODNESS I have nothing at all to say!
My head is spinning.
Its all words and how we understand them.
jmho
What if it’s simply because the DOMINANT is also not interested in those things? I am not interested in scat play but should my Dom do it anyway just because he can? Personally, I don’t think that the only route to being a “good” sub is to have a Dom doing whatever to you, despite his/her own interests or the good of the relationship.
Nope, not what I was getting at. I’m talking about the subs blanket refusal to do anything she doesn’t like to do. Period. Regardless of the doms interest in it.
I keep turning this ’round and ’round in my head and it struck me that maybe the question is more about masochism than submitting? With S/M, yes, it would be a requirement that the sub suffer or resist. But S&M doesn’t have to be a part of D/s. It often is, but not always. We have a little S&M, mostly verbal humiliation, some physical; pretty tame compared to most and only sexually.
Dan doesn’t enjoy seeing me suffer or struggle but he does enjoy watching me obey and submit to him willingly and happily.
But for those who have a strong masochistic urge that wouldn’t be enough. That would probably feel empty.
That makes sense to me. So maybe the question should be, can someone call themselves a masochist if they never have to do anything that makes them suffer?
And the answer would be no, of course. If there are no sadistic acts going on in a relationship, you can’t very well call it S&M, now can you?
Dunno, just a few more thoughts to contribute. Assuming this thread isn’t dead, lol! :)
(See? Every time I shut down my blog, I can’t shut up on other people’s blogs, AHAHAHA!)
That’s another subject entirely I think.
ps. where’s yer freakin blog woman!?
I go through this almost daily. He is not asking me to do things I do not want to do. He is not “doing it right”… and then I stop myself and realize that there is no “right way” and there is no “wrong way”, there is only “Master’s way”. And I have to submit to that. Even if it is not exactly what I expected or wanted… even if it things I want to do… even if it makes me happy.
We have this funny little drama at our house. He will NOT allow me to wash his clothes. (Strange, I know. He won’t even tell me why, just gives me that arched eyebrow… ‘wouldn’t you like to know’ look that drives me nutz.) Washing his clothes has become the holy grail of subdom for me. I found myself on my knees over dramatizing the whole issue this morning. “If you loved me you would let me wash your underwear.” He thought that was the funniest thing he had heard in his whole life… And he still said “NO!” I submitted to that. I know for a fact is I was ordered/required to wash his clothes I would probably hate it. And I would submit to that.
For me, submission is doing what HE wants, even if it is what I want as well. Because after 20 years together, our wants are pretty much in sync.
x
Ah, but you are already submitting to things you don’t like. You dont like not being able to do his laundry. But are you doing it? ;)
Sooo, this guy says to me, stand arms out stretched feet wide apart on tip toes, so I can play with your body. I attempt to, but keep falling over, tippy toes is hard man!…that’s submitting and failing or submitting and suceeding cos least I tried ? Soo because I keep falling side ways annoyingly for him he ties my wrists to a beam so even if I fall I wont move far enough to spoil his fun…Is that submitting or was I just forced not to fall now?
Sure challenges are fine, they keep things spicy but what happens when he doesn’t want you to be challenged? and you submit to that want? sure being forced past limits is spicy but is it really submitting if you need to be forced or pushed past them?
what ever way you cut it there is always a possibility that it ceased to be submission. You want him to force you kicking screaming to stay up on them tippy toes and he wants you to just manage to do it…who is submitting to who when the rope comes out and he has to give in and tie you up there?????
worrying about how other folk solve the riddle for themselves is futile plus it suggests you are too busy thinking about how other folk do it to be focusing on how you do it.
Sooo, this guy says to me, stand arms out stretched feet wide apart on tip toes, so I can play with your body. I attempt to, but keep falling over, tippy toes is hard man!…that’s submitting and failing or submitting and suceeding cos least I tried ? Soo because I keep falling side ways annoyingly for him he ties my wrists to a beam so even if I fall I wont move far enough to spoil his fun…Is that submitting or was I just forced not to fall now?
Sounds like a job for Fetlife! They have the answers for EVERYTHING over there.
I kid, I kid… In fact, mostly I just exist to amuse myself and others.
~Chloe
[rq=677189,0,blog][/rq]Randomness Numero Cuatro
“Sooo, this guy says to me, stand arms out stretched feet wide apart on tip toes, so I can play with your body. I attempt to”
You attempt to. You didnt say “No, fucker. I don’t stand that way evar!”
This really isn’t as difficult as you’re trying to make it sound.
“it suggests you are too busy thinking about how other folk do it”
It also suggests that I found it to be interesting enough to make a couple of blog posts about it. That is not equal to the focus of my life. :)
methinks you missed the rhetoricalness of the questions ;) You are right it is a lot easier than it sounds, and I dont just mean the standing on tippy toes, but the problem is that too many folk do over think and analyse stuff to death. As I said “what ever way you cut it there is always a possibility that it ceased to be submission.” IE at some point in time someone will snark and point fingers and say ooo that wasn’t submission. So generally just getting on with your own brand is best, rather than getting the elitist soap box out. And since by now I have read your “this is what really triggered my post” post. its worth bearing in mind that some folk use microwave dinners every day and still call it cooking ;)
[...] something to talk about here on this site. This post is one such example. Over on Underhishand.com, kaya asked about submission and what qualifies it as submission. She asked if you are not expected to do [...]