“In the pain there is healing”
“Emotionally shattered on the inside instead of being physically battered on the outside.”
That’s a quote from DL’s toy’s blog post. The subject is emotional sadism, something that intrigues me, and her, but not something there seems to be a lot of talk about.
People are much more willing to share stories of physical sadism, even approving the fact that a sadist will often push a masochist beyond her “good pain” point, through to tears and snot and quivering panic over pain. That all seems part and parcel to the sadist/masochist dance.
Even if the girl claims to not be a pain-seeking masochist, there’s an atmosphere of “well, that’s what you signed up for!” that surrounds it. Unless SHE herself claimed that she was being beaten against her will and said that she felt abused, most of us fellow bdsm’ers butt out.
Not so much when you start diving into the emotional side of it. Even mild emotional sadism gets the stink eye. Start referring to your submissive as “Fat Ass”, “Worthless Bitch”, “Stupid Fuck” – and watch how quickly the protests fly. To me, name calling is mild, even such personal attacks as those.
Though even with name calling, there does seem to be an acceptance to it if the person on the receiving end of it clearly enjoys it. There is one girl I know whose ‘name’, given to her by her Dom, is Worthless Pig. I know a lot of people might cringe at such a mean cognomen, but for her, it’s a term of endearment. Her obvious affection for the nickname soothes the bristled fur of those who hear it.
But I want to go past the names to harsher instances of emotional sadism. I want to ask about those who don’t like it, and, for whatever reason… do it anyway.
For the purposes of clearer discussion (should there be any and I hope there is!), let’s leave out the notion of leaving the relationship. Use any reason that makes sense to you for why leaving is not an option, because what I’m really trying to get to is *how* to deal with the emotions and aftermath without having “Run away!” be one of those suggestions. What we are seeking is the thought process and the intensity of the emotions that follow such events from those who engage in it, as well as the thoughts from those who fantasize about it or wonder about it.
Scenario 1: The girl sees her Dom fairly infrequently. He’s legitimately busy, as the infrequent visits are not part of the emotional sadism. For her, the visits have become cherished, special events. She anticipates each visit with a child-like glee.
He knows how much she values this precious time and, because he’s a sadist, sometimes uses it to hurt her. Perhaps he comes for the visit and rather than interact with her, he locks her in a cage or in another room for the entirety of his time there, barely laying eyes on her, let alone speaking to her. Maybe he keeps her where she can see him, maybe he puts her away where she can only hear him. Whatever, the point is to to not give her that which she’s come to treasure- His attention.
It is not a punishment, it is not meant for any purpose other than for his amusement. To see the longing in her eyes, to know how much she’s suffering in the other room, alone and lonely, while he blithely watches the television.
Scenario 2: He shows up with another girl in tow when they, as a couple, have never discussed seeing other people. What they HAVE discussed is that he can do whatever he wants, the specifics of which hadn’t been clarified. He ties his sub to a chair next to the bed, and proceeds to play with and fuck the other girl in front of her. It is the sight of his sub sitting there, heart shattering, silent tears of hurt dripping down her cheeks that fuels him on as he uses the other woman.
Scenario 3: He tells his sub to find him another for a night. He specifies what she is to look like, taking all of his sub’s imagined or real body flaws and requesting that the new girl look better. As in, “Your tits are too small so make sure she has nice big ones. I want her to have a smaller ass than your fat one. And be sure she can suck dick better than you.”
To twist the knife even further, he places her in the next room and forces her to listen to his moans and grunts of pleasure as he fucks his “perfect” girl, while she, the “imperfect” one, is completely left out.
Scenario 4: Same circumstance as number 3, only the sub is forced to stand and watch as he points out the other girl’s more appealing attributes. “See? This is what boobs are supposed to look like.” or “Why can’t you deepthroat like she does?” Then he forces you to engage in belittling yourself by agreeing with, or repeating the same sentiments. “Yes, Master, my tits are hideous and her’s are beautiful.” etc. etc.
Scenario 5: [Insert your own personal hell here]
I’m curious to what any of you think is the purpose of such emotional sadism. Is there one at all, beyond that it might make his dick hard?
One thought I had, and that was echoed by toy on her blog, was that she’d lose some sense of self. While toy mentioned that as a less than desirable outcome (if I understood that correctly. Correct me if not, toy, please), it occured to me that losing some of her sense of self IS the point. One of them anyway.
I mean, it seems to me that to get a submissive to the point where they can handle such obviously soul shattering episodes, being able to suspend, if not shut off, your sense of self would seem of paramount importance. Perhaps then, the trick is in just how much to destroy and how dangerous would that be?
One of the comments over there, by Doll, said: “The problem with emotional sadism is that it could insidiously alter self belief until all confience is gone. It blurs the boundaries between being a submissive or becoming a doormat that just takes the shit off the boots of the sadist.”
And while I agree with that, somewhat, one has to wonder if being that kind of “doormat submissive” isn’t the goal of it all.
I realize that doormat is tossed around as an insult and submissive’s tend to fall all over themselves denying that they could ever be that dominated.. but me?
Honestly, I think it’s hot.
I find that kind of blind, thoughtless submission to BE the goal. A goal that I may or may not ever reach (I certainly don’t seem to be wired for it, but too, neither have we been able to engage in such practices that would completely obliterate my sense of self.)
I understand that in doing so, should we ever get to that place, it would open the door for him to be and do almost anything to me. At this point in time he is still maintaining my sense of self, still encouraging free thought, and, rebellion actually. I don’t expect that to always be the case, nor do I particularly enjoy this time period. I much preferred what we had before when we just dabbled in more extreme methods of control and personality/mental adjusments. I, for one, look forward to the obliteration of *me*.
As toy said in a reply: “it could also take the submission to a whole new level, positively speaking, right? There’s more possibilities of one hurting from it but all that aside, it could just be a new level of humility, subordination, objectification, and submission.”
As with anything else, if you want the possibility of great success, you have to be prepared for the possibility of great failure. But you’ll have neither one if you never try.
Maybe it will be just a coin toss on which way it will go, maybe success relies on the talents of the Dom or the inherent strength of the submissive. Who knows?
So I guess I’m hoping to hear from other’s who have been there or who will be there. There are people I know who are facing this and it’s difficult for them. Unfortunately, I seem to come at this from a different angle in that even just writing about it has gotten me all hot and bothered. I am eagerly anticipating scenarios such as those above, ready to dive headfirst into the pain and misery such things will surely spark in me, and damned be the after effects!
While some of the same insecurities and what-ifs roll around in my head, I’m soothed by a deeper sense of security. I know that *no matter what*, my time spent bound and broken on the floor is temporary, that no matter how low he will make me feel, I remain held in a higher place in his heart. The fear that I feel toward it is not one of abandonment. I’m not sure if perhaps that is the one tiny piece that changes it from not-okay to very-okay. Perhaps so.
However it all will work out for me, I am not in a position to personally offer words beyond what I have here, which is little help for them now I’m sure. Whenever I’m in a place where I need words that I don’t have, I turn to you fine people, as your experiences, thoughts and wisdom for outshine mine most days.
Input? Please? I will beg.
~cunt
Tags: brainwashing, M/s rambles, reflection
Uncategorized | kaya | 
Wednesday April 1st, 2009 9:10am
cognomen
Such a sparkling example of erudition reaffirms my high regard for you and your blog.
I do occasionally rise above lolspeak. ;-)
I haz stuff to say but no brain this morning with which to organize the thoughts.
Later, maybe. Or a blog. I dunno.
I look forward to it. :)
Kaya,
First, I don’t see myself as ever enjoying the emotional sadism side of things myself. The only exception to that wold be if I knew that my submissive truly enjoyed a certain level of emotional sadism. That said, I have some thoughts on the matter.
All of the scenarios you presented have the potential to be very satisfying or very destructive. You see, to me, it’s not the scene itself that will make it good or bad, but the follow through; the aftercare, if you will. Even if the emotional sadism comes off with no warning, if the submissive knows by the time all is said and done, that the dominant enjoyed themselves, the scene would end up being good for both of them, I suspect.
Two examples, one from fiction and one from real life. There was an episode of CSI Miami where a contreversial professor was found tortured to death. In the course of the investigation, the team finds out that he intentionally inflicts emotional abuse on his students (college) as examples of the points he was making. The killer was a woman he had chosen as an experiment, to see how far he could drive her into despair with raw emotional abuse. She admitted at the end, that if she’d known she was one of his experiments, she’d have been HONORED to recieve that level of abuse and suffer the consequences of it. Instead, she snapped and killed him.
I also have a good submissive friend (who I’m visiting later this year) who enjoys being taken by the “power” of her dominant. In other words, she enjoys whatever the dominant enjoys. If you tie her up and whip her to give HER a thrill, she won’t have fun; it won’t be something she enjoys. On the other hand, if you tie nher up and whip her bloody because you get off on it, she’ll enjoy it and want more. Her overriding submissive need is to make her dominant happy, so whatever he wants is what she wants. If I, for example, inflicted any of the above scenarios on her, just knowing that I enjoyed her suffering would make it not only bearable, but something she might crave more of. If, on the other hand, being ignored wasn’t what her dominant wanted (perhaps he’s suffering from a lack of desire), such being ignored would hurt her deeply.
I don’t know what all this means to the general idea of emotional sadism. Like I said, I’d never get much enjoyment from it. For me, knowing that my submissive has enjoyed/craved/needed what i inflicted on her is perhaps the most important thing for me. yes, I’ll call the shots and do what I want to do, but what I want will be partly determined by her needs and desires. For example, if I were playing with you, there would be lots of pain involved because I know you’re a pain slut and masochist who craves every painfilled sensation, while in my time with D. last October, there was very little pain involved because I knew she had no liking for pain beyond nipple torture (of which there was lots). In both cases, I did or would have a blast, both because I enjoyed what went on, but because I also knew the woman involved did as well.
I hope this is kind of what you’re looking for.
Dave
That is a really interesting scenario with the professor/student. That she would have been completely different had she known gives me lots to think about.
I don’t know what it has to do with emotional sadism either, other than consent being a key factor in it?
I think I identify more with your friend you are visiting this year in that at some point, I’ll enjoy it just because I know HE did. Even if that point doesn’t come until long after it’s over, his enjoyment of it is enough to tip the scales from hate to love. Usually.
But, unlike her, I can get some enjoyment out of him doing strictly for my benefit. But only if he is also enjoying it, too. If he really didnt want to do it and was only doing it because it was Tuesday and I’m supposed to get beat on Tuesdays but he was tired/sick/whatever— nah. I’ll pass on that, thanks.
I think, from what I know of you so far, that were I to describe you to someone else, I’d say you were a sensual Dom. Not that you are limited to sensual activities but that your activities are directly largely by her enjoyment/your mutual enjoyment. To me, what equals sensuality is that concern that you have over what she’s getting out of it. A regular old poopy-head Dom like mine is much more centered on his own desires and I’m just the tool used to get him there (which is hot, god dammit!)
:-)
Well, this is something I know a little about since for us, D/s has always been mostly about humiliation. Dan gets off on emotionally or verbally humiliating me and I get off on him doing it. I too have been shy about bringing it up very much because it seems that all kinds of physical torture is just fine and ducky when you’re talking about being subbed out but once you explain how your Dom starts taunting you as a fat, worthless cunt good for nothing, well, that’s just *outrageous*.
But it makes me wet. *shrugs* Whaddya gonna do? I can’t very well reprogram myself to make everyone else happy. Spankings and floggings and canings and all the rest…do nothing for me. Nothing.
But let him talk to me as being lower than dirt and I get off. ALL, and I mean ALL, 100 percent of my masturbatory fantasies surround me being treated as worthless, beneath the man, so far beneath him I hardly dare look up. I cannot orgasm on my own without feeling I’m worthless. Yes, I CAN orgasm during other kinds of actual sex with Dan but on my own? I’m always humiliating myself in my head and to more extreme points than Dan and I have ever actually done. It is also the only thing that has sent me into “subspace” as well, that feeling during sex that I’m a worthless whore for Dan and he is only there to use my holes. And I have actually needed aftercare after such times because it can shake me up quite a bit. I need extreme reassurance from him that he still loves me, that it’s okay that I let him do/say all that and say that and more than anything, that it’s okay I *liked* it so much.
So, even though we’ve never done the exact situations you speak of above, he has said things to me that bring me to tears and turned me on very much at the same time. It’s all a mindfuck but still very powerful.
And I agree with you; the point IS to lose myself. I become…vanished. I become…whew, hard to say…I become so pure in a way…just very, um…I’m not sure how to explain it.
I go from being me, to being his, to being nothing. And it’s just so..freeing. Empties my mind and makes me…I hate to use cliches but yeah, it’s “floaty”. Everything in my head is very very still and I can take a break from being *me* for a while.
I guess a lot of people get that from just the pain aspect or dressing up or whatever but I was never able to. Use the words, though, and the mind-fucking and I will go there rapidly. I’m incredibly lucky that Dan is very verbal and knows exactly what to say and do and we just match very well in this.
Thoughtful post, Kaya, thank you.
Why I had no idea you were such a pervert! You deviant little snake! ;-)
I wonder if you’ll think farther for me. Well, not even so much for me, meh, anyway… if you can.
Imagine yourself (Riddle me this Batman!) and Dan in scenario #4. Specifically with those details.
Imagine that it’s going to take you far outside what leads you to your floaty place but that you will do this for him because he wants it and there is nothing you want more than to give him what he wants.
Would you expect that, assuming you would receive the same aftercare as your other experiences, that you would be any more or less affected by it?
Or maybe the better question is, IS there anything that wouldn’t lead you to your floaty place. Emotional masochism is a tricky kink, isn’t it? We’ve not done those particular scenarios either but I can’t imagine them being beyond what I desire. It IS the kind of personaly ‘shattering’ that I crave.
Hmm. What if you weren’t the emotional masochist that you are but he was the emotional sadist that he is?
So much to cover!
My emotional humiliation cravings have certain parameters, at least currently. For instance in scenario #4, if Dan were to point me out to other *men*, mocking and disparaging my body to them and they all were equally demeaning to me, that would be very hot for me. I’m hot right now just thinking about Dan stripping me in a room full of men and pointing out my inadequacies. No doubt ending the verbal humiliation by forcing my worthless being to suck them all off one by one while Dan laughs and mocks.
Jeeze louise, is it HOT in here or WHAT? hehehe
But I am incredibly jealous of the idea of Dan comparing me to another woman and any and all “teh hawtness” just flies out the window; I don’t feel humiliated by the idea, just really really angry.
However, on the opposite side of that is that, when I read your scenario #4 and thought about that being done to me, Dan comparing me to another woman that way, it was a turnon and more so than the other scenarios because that’s close to what he actually does, he says degrading things about me then makes me repeat it to him when I don’t want to. So I was able to appreciate the humiliation of it without letting the fact he was using another woman to compare me to by using what I call “closing one eye”, mentally speaking. I block out the part I do not find compelling and concentrate on the parts I *do*.
So. By using this ability to sort of mentally “block” aspects I don’t find hot by ignoring them, I can still get to my floaty place even though what is actually being said/done isn’t exactly along my personal preferences. I know this means holding two opposite truths in my mind at one time, thus the whole “one eye closed” thing.
I hope that made sense ’cause I’m not sure it does to me, lol!
As for wanting to do anything for him, I want to but I don’t know that I always *can*. The first time he called me “fat” during a blowjob, I jerked completely out of the moment and started crying. We stopped, even though I was saying, “no no no…it’s okay” but he stopped it and we talked and…it’s okay now. That was just a hard word for me; like most of us, I have body issues.
So it’s bit by bit, you know? I’d like to believe I have the ability to do anything Dan would want me to but he’d have to break me into it. Brainwash me, as you tagged this post. I do know this; I have changed a good many of my personal life-opinions by being so smitten with Dan and looking up to him and HIS opinions. And the whole verbal humiliation was started by him, not me. I’d never heard of such a thing and at first I was appalled and confused.
But because he wanted it, I wanted it too.
I have no clue how far I’d go; I’m only grateful that he doesn’t want much. I do NOT like my boundaries pushed and I am afraid of change.
But I love him.
As for wondering what would happen if I were not an emotional masochist, I really didn’t think I was before Dan. I think a lot of what I now think *because* of him; I didn’t before.
How far would I go? I will probably never know because Dan is happy with where we are, what we do now and the snail-like slow pace of our experimenting with all this.
And I am enough of a coward to be relieved about that. :)
Lesson learned the hard way with this.
One of the exes really enjoyed emotional sadism. In theory, I get off on it too. But it turns out that I can’t do this without a really deep connection in the background – lots of warm cuddles, love, knowing that my place in his life and him in mine is 110% secure.
We started into it too quickly, and I think it destroyed any chance for the relationship to develop, and it left me hating myself too much to look in the mirror for months after – sometimes you take a risk and you end up with the negative outcome. Without the background of a solid relationship, I have a hard time understanding it. I’m not sure I can see people starting a relationship of the shared basis of loving emotional sadism, because i can’t imagine those first few months of development.
I think one of the good things about it is acknowledgment of flaws – Sort of a yeah, you might be a fat mouthy bitch, but I know that side of you, just like I know all sides of you, and I still love you.
That was the best way that I could process it. I’m sure there are others – thanks for putting this out there for discussion.
I’m really leaning toward having the background and security as the make-it-or-break-it element, too. I know it’s what does it for me. I have to have his reassurance, just as Amber said, that he still loves me AND that it’s okay that I loved it.
I’m betting that if he ever used the fact that I love it as part of the weapon, it might be more than I could take. It might shatter something that shouldn’t be shattered. That’s a pretty touchy button to fuck with. It took so long for me to accept myself that.. whew.. I just hope he never wants to go there.
tulsa,
I’m saying thank you for sharing a little of your realistic experiences within this. I appreciated reading it.
toy
I have only limited experience with this side of things.
I’ve only lived within this sort of situation one time — back when He was head over heels in love with jewels, and I was totally, completely, utterly freaked out over it all. The reasons for my being freaked out are really just not important in this context. It just was.
I don’t think that He was investing effort into making me miserable, but He clearly decided very early in the process that He wasn’t going to invest effort into making me less miserable. I think, in hindsight, that He was of the mind that if I wanted to be crazy over it all, He was OK with watching me twist.
I don’t remember anything much except the constant sense of hurt and panic that went with that stretch of time. I also remember that anytime I tried to explain what I was feeling, what I thought I needed, or what I was afraid of or angry about, His response was not just dismissive but demeaning as well. It was as if He simply withdrew the connections between the two of us. That was, for me the hardest part of the whole experience emotionally — I had to figure out what I was going to “do about it” on my own (no guidance, no direction, no support). I understood that He felt that I needed to just get over my feelings and do what He told me to do, but without some sort of road map for how to do that, I was entirely lost. He might as well have told me to speak only Hungarian in His presence from that point on. My understanding of how to do it would have been just the same.
I guess I think that “emotional” sadism is, in the final analysis, the same as physical sadism. It hurts. Perhaps the submissive partner finds it enjoyable at some level, but perhaps not. Perhaps the Dominant partner does it with intent, or perhaps it is simply that there is the assumption of “right” within the context of the relationship. I don’t think that the intentionality and enjoyment questions are really germane to the conversation.
Questioning “why” people participate in one form of SM or another is just not particularly useful or interesting to me. Understanding THAT people choose to participate is. I know that you specified that you weren’t interested in the “Run away” response to this particular sort of power exchange, but I think there is a very real component of the emotional response that does derive from the instinct to preserve the self, and that shows up in various degrees of “run away” urges. I think that what is interesting and telling is that there can be the urge to run away, to protect the self, and that sometimes very compelling urge is volitionally overridden. How does that happen, and what are the consequences of making that choice?
I know that in my case, in the one instance where I was faced with an emotionally sadistic situatiion, my choice to remain in place despite the hurt led me to some understanding of my own self and our connection that I did not have before. That is a gain in my view. I’d not want to repeat the experience given a choice, but it didn’t result in an entirely negative outcome either.
swan
If jewels is who I think it is then I remember some of this. It could be that I’m way off base but I do recall a time, way back when I was just new to blogging, that you were dealing with another woman in your relationship.
When I said that I didn’t want the “run away” replies, I was hoping to avoid the very obvious answer of “if it isn’t working for you, then it’s time to end it”, because, I know that. We all know that. Or, most of us do anyway. I really wanted to get into how to deal with rather than making the choice to leave.
But what you said is perfect and I wish I would have elaborated on it more in the post. That urge IS there, and can be very strong when pushed to these levels- and yet we don’t go. And it’s those consequences that I am interested in.
The… permission that it gives, every time we override that urge just boggles the mind.
This that you said “the assumption of “right” within the context of the relationship” is very interesting to me, too. Intent and enjoyment don’t always factor in at all. That’s very true. But is that just a fancier way of saying “because I can”? Not that it matters I suppose, though I always tend to get hung up on the why of things. Probably to my detriment. :/
You said you would not want to repeat it, though you acknowledge there were pluses to the experience. IF it were to happen again (because I assume he’d do so if the urge struck him), do you expect you’d be better prepared because of what you’ve learned? I mean, are the understandings that you have things that would facilitate an easier “next time” or are they more personal realizations that would have no bearing on a “next time” and you’d merely prepare yourself for a repeat of the same pain and twisting?
WHEN this comes up again, because I am sure it will at some point, I think it will be nearly the same in terms of the pain and anxiety that it is likely to cause. I think that I have learned, for myself, that I will stay. That “always and all ways” think that we say, really does go deep for me, so I believe that I have some very rooted sense that “happy or not” this is my place. The “run away” solution option just doesn’t work for me anymore. About the furthest I ever get is the occasional trip to sit in the car in the garage late at night when He’s asleep. That isn’t about leaving — it is about having a place that is safe to cry and swear and work out all that nasty angsty stuff.
I also know that I cannot change or manage this kind of scenario. He will do what He will do. That isn’t particularly intended to hurt me, but He really does feel that He’s not responsible for my emotional responses to it all. He would be glad if I’d be happy about it all, but if I’m not, then He’ll go right ahead and do what He likes and my happiness (or lack of same) is really up to me. If it turns out that I am unhappy, He mostly doesn’t want to know about it.
I guess, the difference that I see between me in this arena, and others (including you it would seem) is that I do not find any of this to be a turn on. It is painful and it creates huge emotions and I become very frightened and threatened by it all, but I do not get any goody or charge from the dance. So, it falls into the realm of “shut up and act like a slave” I guess.
swan
Wonderful topic kaya. Emotional sadism to me is the ultimate release there is, and the ultimate exchange of power. Taking you right to that edge and making you wonder if you are going to fall off. And to the power of which you speak, it must be inherent traits inside the Dominant and the submissive. Strong characters that can bounce those energies off one another, without destroying to the point of no return.
Pushing the submissive into the darkest recesses of herself/himself, making them an object of that emotional sadism. Why do they do it. In my humble opinion/experiences, some do it because it makes their cock hard, some do it because they want that exchange of power, they want their submissive that enpowered to them, and desperate. Not clingy, but desperate, their needs focused on the dominant, just think of that power then that they hold in their hands.
They often say that the line between that kind of power and abuse is indiscernable. And it probably is, so that is what makes that line so glorious. And yes some say that ‘we’ are sick fucks for living in that realm, I just say it works for me.
Happy Hump Day.
I agree with Tulsa. I absolutely love the emotional sadism, as long as I know I will get the true cuddles later, and I have his true love. Like, when he tells me how useless and plump I am, when he kicks me, so that I tumble, and then sighs about how clumsy I am, to fall over so easily. Even the watching him play with another woman turns me on (he is only planning on doing that, yet). Or when he pulls his penis out of my mouth and says I could really be a good little porn piglet if only I wasn´t so lazy. I also like it, when he calls me all sorts of names, or when I am supposed to say bad things about myself. Like that I can only think of sex. And he then slaps me for not doing it properly.
But after hard emotional sadism (we had some of it right this weekend) I get soooo needy. It is like: We have to meet in his lunch break and I am hugging him hundreds of times, and I feel a bit lost without him and I can´t put the phone down when he rings. Although I do k n o w that he loves me, and finds me pretty, and finds me clever, and doesn´t think I am lazy, I can´t go without tons of reassurance.
Summarizing: It is not easy! However, it is hot.
Kaya,
We do a fair amount of emotional sadism…or I guess I should say that he does a lot of it TO me. I really get off on it, but I’m most frequently troubled by that part of our dynamic because it’s so counter-intuitive for me. I mean, why do I like scenario 2? And how could he like doing that to me? It doesn’t always make sense and I often get tripped up in feeling like he must hate me or something. I can take it personally. I guess that’s a good indicator that we have reached the stopping point.
What usually brings me back to balance is a good amount of reassurance that he loves me and that he values me. That the emotional sadism serves a purpose (usually breaking me down and correcting my behavioral patters) other than sadism for sadism’s sake. And it does serve a purpose – I always feel more open and in a deeper submissive place afterward.
There are a few times when I thought that I would shatter from it, like just totally lose my sense of self and all of that. But instead I’ve been really surprised at my emotional resilience. That’s not to say that it hasn’t affected me, because it has, but I am still all here.
Wow, sorry for the ramble. Such an interesting topic…
Kitten
I realized last weekend just how insecure I am. Nothing in our relationship is giving me reason to be insecure – the man is so sweet to me! He withholds a lot of himself thinking that I may be unhappy with what he’s doing (in fact he seems to believe that I’d rather be ignored than doing something I actively dislike in his name…which he’s wrong about).
Anyway, I’m coming to terms with how insecure I am. I believe a lot of it stems from the fact that, in the past, he’s had trouble being honest with me. (In that he’d deny negative feelings at times.) We’re working hard on communicating more so that *I* know what he’s feeling when (or at least, “I’m not happy right now, but we’ll TALK ABOUT IT LATER,” instead of just being left hanging) and emotional sadism is actually playing a part in that.
In general, my daddy is a mean guy. I am…his outlet for that. For so long he’s sat around frustrated because he’s feeling this or that and…stewing in it. Now, he’s been letting some of that out. It’s negative. It cuts like a knife. It’s surprising to hear come out of him, particularly when we’re not playing.
But I am becoming MORE secure in my place with him. After the fact, I hear how strong I was, how good I am, how much he loves me. He’s not stewing, full of black yuck, so he’s more social with me and others, he’s more active in our lives. We are both much happier without that invisible limit drawn.
Sometimes I look at it as “the price I just have to pay” for being with the guy that I love. Sometimes I look at it as a way to keep me grounded when I get too cocky. Sometimes I get wet just knowing that, as the venom is spewing from his lips, his dick is getting hard. Sometimes it’s just a way to reaffirm my place, since as a big mean sadist, the more I dislike it the more he likes it…and my goal is to make Daddy happy.
As far as your examples, beyond just name calling and such…security would be my issue. I’d be shaken, and my faith in the fact that I AM secure, probably would be also, whether I was logical about it or not (though if it’s intense enough, there’s no room for logic). I’d need to see him getting pleasure from it, and I’d need reassurance at some point. A LOT of it, probably, LOL. But then again, in some twisted way, eventually I’d probably end up feeling closer to him – because at night *I* sleep in his bed, not Perfect Girl. Because we are raising our family together.
Holy novel…sorry ’bout that.
Emotional sadism is what gets Daddy and I both off. I know in my head that he loves me but need no reassurance of that after anything intense. I think, at least for us Him reassuring me would damage the dynamic we have built. There is often talk of replacing me, and believe me it is only talk, if he made sure I knew it was just words it would ruin the power the dynamic has for us. Daddy talks about my friends, other oil girls and during our play it terrifies me, but it’s also what I crave. Emotional masochist here.
lil girl not oil. LOL
“I understand that in doing so, should we ever get to that place, it would open the door for him to be and do almost anything to me.”
Is that goal really worth reaching? What if Scenario #5 is that Jes can never return and you would have to let someone else raise her baby if she could not/would not care for the baby? Would that type of emotional sadism really bring you peace and joy? If the goal is to take the slave to her depths and he gets enjoyment from her suffering, wouldn’t this be a perfect scenario?
I guess I think some things can be taken too far and it must take some very special people to even skirt around the edges. Kudos to those of you who think you can take it, you must have a very strong bond.
My former Master played with another sub in front of me and had me serve her, too. He was not cruel about it, more matter-of-fact. I did get through it but it was a painful time. I also had periods of getting a chance to spend time with him but found his attention was focused on other things such as the scenarios you mentioned. What happened for me was that I shut down and pulled away when it was made clear I had to get through it on my own. I did what I had to do. I trusted less and became more independent since it was my problem to deal with, not his. Not all forms of “emotional sadism” bring a couple closer, sometimes it shuts a door that is hard to open again.
Ahhhhh this topic made me emotional…you sadist! (just teasing)
“Not all forms of “emotional sadism” bring a couple closer, sometimes it shuts a door that is hard to open again.”
I appreciate your response to this topic and although i have much to add, i’m sitting back & reading others’ comments instead. I’m reflecting.
But you made some valid points about the realities beyond any sort of “hotness” factor, which i see, is a popular response. And i agree, to an extent…But I suppose it all begins and ends with the depth of the relationship, the security in that relationship, and the trust factor.
I wanted to say thank you for this glimpse of a realistic comment that i can understand and appreciate and a big warm thank you to Kaya the Great for writing up such a fucking fantastic post. It’s very well written, articulated, and artistic.
Thank you.
Emotional sadism, may occur in a scene, and then it’s over. But some make the mistake (yes I did say mistake) of thinking consistent behavior of this nature is fine.
It’s not.
IMHO, core beliefs play a large part in emotional sadism and masochism.
Nothing (emphasis on NOTHING) matters except what you tell yourself, how you frame the situation.
Or reframe it by acting it out (either as giver or receiver).
di
i think trust is a key of emotional sadism… More so than love, than the “durability” (for lack of a better word) of a relationship.
my Master is an emotional sadist, and i didn’t realize the depth of my emotional masochism, until we had a scene in which He told me i am nothing. And more and more, i teeter on that feeling, sometimes in a scene or in a random moment when i feel His dominance strongly. i am His nothing. And that’s the way i feel for the duration – full of what He wants and yet, nothing…
After, when He has let the intensity fade from His eyes, i feel so connected to Him, and feel confident in my “nothingness”, which is still somehow, everything i am, everything He has made me and none of it.
Hi!!
i love your blog and your honesty within it. This post i think raises some really good questions and if i may, i would like to borrow the various situations to write about in my own blog- to give my point of view. Do you mind??
I don’t mind a bit. Thanks for asking. :-)
Thank you kaya!!
Here is my blog addess. i started it when i first met Master and it has my entire journey so far. From the wide eyed innocence at the beginning to now- when i am starting a new chapter in my life with Him and the wisdom i have gained. It isn’t as fluffy as it used to be but when you grow, you change. i haven’t put the post in yet and thank you again!
chai
http://thejourneyofasubmissive.blogspot.com/
oh boy… right in the middle of American Idol. I have thoughts and experience on the topic..maybe in the morning I can assemble something of value.
lol at Just_W…well, this discussion is hardly conducive to AI! You might say it’s cognitive dissonance. hehhe
I’ve not much to add to the debate, but I wanted to mention that it’s been debated on IC a bit.
i read your blog yesterday kaya… and had to close it down and move along.. because “emotional sadism/masochism” is in my mind humiliation play (why do they keep changing all the names on me?? i get so damn confused !!) AND considering the weekend i had.. it was still too sore a spot for me to visit.
The one thing everyone seems to forget.. is that humiliation play or emotional sadism or whatever the hell you want to call it.. is as bad.. no worse.. than beating an ass.. or waxing them.. or burning them.. or cutting them.. or any other form of sadism you wish to employ.
Why??
Simple.
Because the marks – the damage – can NOT be seen !!!
But that doesn’t mean they aren’t there. IF a dominant cuts a sub and she lies bleeding.. does he ignore it and walk away?? or does he at the very least watch it.. and make sure it stops.
Can he see if the self esteem.. the soul.. the heart of the sub is bleeding after a humiliation scene?? Not as easily.. and sometimes.. SOMETIMES.. the sub is left to bleed alone…
i have written another blog entry on the whole subject.. so i will not fill up your comment space with my thoughts/rants on the subject.
i will just say…… if my Sir does humiliation play ….. i will accept it.. and go with it…. and tremble and die a little bit inside… because HE wants to go there… not because i crave it.. or desire it.. or find it hot. and in that accepting i will grow stronger in my submission to Him…… because it wasn’t something i craved.
morningstar (owned by Warren)
That’s an excellent analogy. And I really like the statement of being left to bleed alone.
“HE wants to go there… not because i crave it.. or desire it.. or find it hot. and in that accepting i will grow stronger in my submission to Him…… because it wasn’t something i craved.”
Perfect. Thank you. I’ve read your recent entries of your experience so I know that you “get it”. I very much appreciate your input here. :-)
I have a stupid busy day today, lots of errands to run, so I probably won’t be back online to reply here until later this evening or tomorrow.
I appreciate the input from you all, and I’m greedy enough to ask for more if anyone is willing. I promise to participate as soon as
Master lets meI can. :)I read through this blog post, and the replies with a lot of ambivalent feelings. When i read the “worthless pig” name, i actually sucked in my breath. For me, i’m not an emotional masochist. I don’t know if Master is an emotional sadist – i’ve never asked – but beyond a little light humiliation play, there’s very little that we’ve done in that realm. And even then, the humilation play that we *have* done, he’s always been very very careful to skip around certain areas.
You see, i know i would be totally unable to let whatever was said in scene, remain within scene. No matter the aftercare, no matter what he said afterwards to put me back together, comments such as “worthless pig” would resound within me for years afterwards, undermining me and my self confidence at critical moments, and i suspect he knows that. I already experience that with thoughtless comments made to me by other people, such as family and “friends” from the past. Even in arguments: i’m constantly fighting the argument i had in the past that this argument reminds me of, rather than the argument that is actually in front of me.
So no, this is not something for me. [I had written a big long thing about the dangers of this kind of emotional sadism, mostly working through my feelings on the matter, and then i sat there and thought about it, and realised that a) its not your (kaya's) responsibility to keep anyone else safe. b) most of the people who do this stuff already will know about the dangers and aren't gonna need someone lecturing them. c) i think the comments and the scenarios you outlined, kaya, illustrate the potential dangers all by themselves, better than i could say it. LOL. So i deleted it.]
My point? I’m reading this with a great deal of interest, trying to keep an open mind and learn from those who do do this in such a way that bears in mind the potential consequences, both positive and negative, and for whom the experience is a positive one, even if that positivity is after the fact, rather than coming from my own experience which – granted – is from a non-consensual background (and in some cases, non-bdsm too) – and is almost 100% negative. I’ve *always* found it very hard to read people write and call themselves degrogatory names such as “worthless pig” or “fat disgusting bitch”, even more so when they write that their Masters have called them this. While intellectually i know that for the most part, they want those names, that they find them hot, emotionally i find it hard to read and in most cases, i avoid those kinds of blogs. I’m not talking so much of humiliation now – reading of someone urinating on someone else’s face, which while humiliating, isn’t quite so degrogatory to the sense of someone’s identity – nor of more neutral language – being called “nothing” doesn’t bother me. Its the assaults, if you like, to someone’s self confidence, the sense of self and identity that bothers me so much. And maybe the fact that it *does* bother me so much is something i need to explore – that there’s a wound there, unhealing, being picked at, scabbing over, but never really healing. But that’s for me (and Master) to worry about. :)
Anyway. i wanted to say thanks, kaya, for such a well written post, and to everyone replying to this.
Wow, I’m torn on this one. I am submissive to Sir and ultimately will do as I’m told. He does not and has not taken pleasure in humiliating me so far. He does enjoy ‘making’ me do things I do not enjoy or find, well, gross at times.
I am like kethry in that I take the humiliation very personally and feel like if He said that, called me that, He must have REALLY meant it, not just as part of a scene. I internalize it and will have lasting feelings of not being good enough. Even small corrections He gives about simple things (like cooking for example) I tend to see as ‘failures’ and carry them with me for a long time. In a way it does make me strive to do better the next time, but the blow to my self-esteem is hard and lasting. This is MY baggage that I/we are working on. Therefore my perspective on this is that it is harmful and dangerous. Could it drive the sub/slave to suicide? Have they delved into the issue beforehand to make sure there are no underlying baggage that would complicate the ‘fun’?
I don’t want you to think that I look at people who do this and think they are ‘wrong’. That is just not the case. I just know that for me, personally, this would be dangerous ground. I envy those whose sense of self is strong enough to take the humiliation/emo sadism and come out the other side intact, or improved in their opinion. I’m not there yet.
Thank you for this post, it has given me a lot to think about and also a new push to work on my sense of self, my sense of being His and what He wants.
[...] “Emotionally shattered on the inside in preference to of being physically battered on the maximal.” That’s a bring up from DL’s bagatelle’s blog proclaim. The testee is nervous sadism, something that intrigues me, and her, but not something there seems to be a quantity of talk thither. People are much more acquiescent to interest stories of doc sadism, square approving the the poop indeed that a sadist force often thrust a masochist beyond her “flattering pain” goal, through to tears and snot and quivering frighten over ordeal. That all seems p Originator: “In the depress there is healing” [...]
I am the worthless pig that Kaya speaks of…although I don’t really see it as an endearment, I also am not damaged by it. I have said before, I would have much preferred a pretty faerie and dragonfly tattooed on my butt rather than an industrial WP that looks like permanent marker. He drew it to look like initials a guy would put on his toolbox… I make fun… but the fact is.. that he would put that mark on me, is hot…what can I say.
In terms of a scenario…I have some that I wouldn’t write because I really don’t care for the judgments. But here’s one…
I was on the opposite coast doing some business and had to stay longer than planned. While in a meeting, I got a text that said check you email. I did and it said… Because you had to delay your return, I am denied a blowjob today and I want one. Go on Craigslist..find a nice young pretty one that’s on my way home… explain to her that you are unable to serve your owner and would like to arrange for something nice for him. Text me back the time and address. I expect to be reimbursed for this when you return. I had to excuse myself from the meeting for 15 minutes…and I did reimburse him when I got back.
He wasn’t going to die without a blow job nor did he need me to pay for it. But he did get much amusement out of knowing that although I will struggle and have to dig deep…in the end I will obey.
Here’s what I thought of it. At first I thought (quietly) …asshole. Then I humiliated myself on the phone with the hooker who I’m sure was like…yeah whatever….then I had to sit through my meeting imagining him getting his cock sucked (almost as good as you) by “Emerald”. Then because I am who I am…I was all happy inside because he has the will and the balls to prove to me how completely he owns me.
It hasn’t been all slap and tickle getting to this place… there are days…. We’re in this 7 years, we don’t live together, we don’t date, we don’t even eat together. This is a no frills M/s relationship but only no frills to the untrained eye…There is much complexity and intensity..there’s a symbiosis, however unequal. There is beauty in what others might see as …oh I would never do that, I need more.
I asked him if he had a comment that I could share…
“I believed then and now that it all serves to emphasize submission. Not conditional submission but complete. I will take from you what I want, the presumption is that it pleases you to know I do.”
He sought out and found someone who would be able to take it and thrive on it. I’m secure in myself. I’m tough. I don’t have past issues to work around. He has promised to leave some of me intact…his choice. If he goes too far…he will know…he knows me…he’s smart…he will do the repairs.
I don’t think I am any more an emotional masochist than I am a pain masochist. I don’t perceive pain as pleasure…pain is pain…I crave it for how it strokes my need to be owned and to submit completely… well and there’s all that wetness that happens…but that’s from that traitor girl that lives down below…she rides the short bus.
As far as doormat goes… I always say ..lucky are the days I get to be the doormat. Doormat is like Abuse… it doesn’t really fit here where I am.
It’s not for everyone but it’s clearly good for me.
I want to thank everyone for bringing up this topic and for sharing your experiences. i’m just starting to accept that these things are part of who I am and who my husband might be.
So many things you guys share strike bells – honest to goodness notre dame-bells of st. mary’s-liberty-town hall bells.
comments about Not being able to see the marks; maybe even not caring if the bleeding stops; obeying with pride; loving the relationship that works for you. I am probably not someone who will ever be able to call my husband ‘master’ or anything like that; but I see and admire all of you.
thank you all for putting yourselves out here – no therapist would even admit that not only is there such a thing as emotional masochism/sadism, but if used wisely can be part of a healthy relationship.
the comment ‘my mans a mean guy; i’m his outlet for that’ could have come right out of my mouth. the danger here (in my case) is that we don’t know what the fuck we’re doing – how much internal bleeding do I have (quite a bit i’m sure;some stuff he’s said just stays in my head turning in circles- but i’m no weakling and I heal eventually) I wonder how interested will the big guy be in taking real control over himself and me. or maybe he’s just an asshole and i’m eroticizing it to justify still being here ;)
Kaya, as for your scenarios, some part of me wants to be ok with having other women touching him and visaversa; but mostly the thought just turns my stomache. I think he’s a one-woman-man – or so he’s said for years, so hopefully I may be spared those types of situations.
I continuue to read in awe-and follow the links where I can – and thank you all for the welcome you’ve shown.
I am not an emotional masochist at any extreme level – don’t get off on some of the name calling you described like pig or fat or lazy but I totally get of on being called a cunt, slut, nasty little bitch, that along with my personal fantasies sends me over the edge – makes me all kinds of slurpy wet.
Is it different then the full on slave in a box demeaning verbal talk? not really. It makes him hard and the shock to my psyche when he does it is the same no matter what the words are and the after-thoughts or feelings are the same – I need some sort of assurance that he loves me and respects me and admires me aside of the physical play or mental/verbal play in this case.
I think that if your Dom is into this kind of thing – irregardless if you thrive on it or not the entire purpose of the type of emotional sadism you described in your “scenarios” are mostly to please him i.e. make his dick hard.
But those subs who get off on it – with or without the emotional or verbal aftercare are getting their “hard on” too.
When one person (The D) is this way and one (the S) isn’t getting anything but emotional pain from it I think it is abuse. I don’t think brainwashing has anything to do with it. Codependent ABSOLUTELY but that is OK if your getting what you need too.
Personally scenario 2 turns me on – because in my world and my relationship once she left he would fuck the living daylights out of me and torture aspects of my body and that turns me the fuck right on.
I used to have “rules” if we were going to invite another person to play. I had this jealousy thing about him kissing another woman – my “rules” were tossed out the window – if he gets another play toy I have no say so in what does or does not occur. I shut up and do as he says and have learned from experience that he has no desire to be with that other person in the same capacity as myself – the connection, trust, love, passion, commitment – all of that doesn’t get ripped away because he wants to play with someone else or make me watch – or talks dirty nasty stuff to me.
hell I learn from watching him – even after 12 1/2 years together.
Okay, so. I have no experience here. So feel free to ignore the following rambling. I was thinking about this since you posted it, and attempting an intelligent reply.
Nothing came to me.
I then moved on to attempting a coherent reply.
Strike two.
I’m settling for “a” reply. Yay!
Basically, I kept thinking “Since I haven’t done this, HOW would I handle it…” and then I got STUCK. But it was SO fun to get unstuck. All I could come up with was “I just won’t think about how I’d handle it.”
And I know that sounds really great in theory (or possibly just really lame) but so far, I really DON’T think about it, and I honestly think my ultimate goal would be to get to a place where I don’t think about how and why and all that anyway.
I love Antonio, and he loves me. He loves me as a person and he loves me as his slave. He loves me and he loves my service.
Is he an emotional sadist? I don’t think so.
Would he employ emotional sadism? I dunno. I try not to think about it. Why? Because it does me no good.
I can’t see the benefit in thinking about it at all.
I think my goal, when it comes to things like this, should NOT be figuring out how to deal with it. I think my ultimate goal is simply to trust. If he thinks it will make me better for him, somehow? He’ll do it. And if he likes the results, he’ll do it again. If he doesn’t like the results, but wants to do it again anyway, he’ll help me or push me or force me into a better headspace somehow. He’s a God at that sort of thing. And if he doesn’t like what it does to me, and doesn’t want to do it anymore anyway? He won’t do it. The End.
If my goal is figuring out how to make ME comfortable with something, maybe I’ve lost the point, yanno? It isn’t about how I should/can/would deal with it. It’s about figuring out what he enjoys doing, and what reactions he enjoys in me, and seeking THAT result, not seeking a personal comfort level or ability. Maybe his goal wouldn’t be me being comfortable with it anyway. (Maybe his goal would be to turn me into a blibbering suicidal puddle of goo. I mean, I seriously doubt it, but if I am trying to be uber-slave here, then it’s not for me to guess at.)
I guess what I’m trying to say is I’d just… Have whatever reaction seems natural, and let him take it from there. I’d want to be able to TRUST.
Honestly, I think I’d hate it and begin to hate myself. I think my Master wouldn’t like the effect it had on me. I *think* it would never happen in our relationship, at least not to the degree in some of those scenarios you listed.
Anyway, my apologies for spilling my mental process out here. I realize it likely had nothing to do with what you wanted to hear in terms of input, but it was FUN for me!
(And I have to admit, I did some creepy thinking/fantasizing that nearly made me cry. God damn me and my masochistic brain!)
~Chloe
i must confess, while i KNOW i would be crushed if Beast was to have sexual relations with another i often daydream of such and it makes me very horny!
~vie
“*no matter what*, my time spent bound and broken on the floor is temporary, that no matter how low he will make me feel, I remain held in a higher place in his heart”
^^^ makes all the difference in the world. I know that during the time that I was a slave, I did not have that sense of security, EVER. I always felt like I was one mistake away from being gotten rid of. The knowledge that your Master wants you and always will means that you can enjoy emotional sadism like this, without worrying that the new girl he brought home will replace you. And I’m pretty sure I’m not the only slave who’s ever been insecure like that.
[...] pain point, through to tears and snot and quivering panic over pain. That all seems p source: In the pain there is healing, Under His [...]