Early Initiation
Posted with permission, snippets of a Fetlife member’s copied chat log.
Note: the “me” in the chat log is NOT me…lol. It’s her(JustTen on FL), but I am too lazy to go changing words and shit.
Personally, I thought this was a fascinating conversation.
Him: If you’re on my list there should be for two reasons:
Him: 1) you’re serious looking for a Dom
Him: 2) you have a history of abuse in your past
Him: Which one is it..?
Me: both in a way
Him: Good…
Me: why is that good?
Him: I like when a sub has a history of abuse..
Me: why is that?
Him: it turns her into a better servant..especially of she grew up to crave the sensations ( not the emotions) what was done to her before.
Me: interesting
Him: and truthful..
Me: i’d like you to elaborate. Prefering abused subs makes you seem a predator on broken women. Those who haven’t healed.
Him: a predator..or perhaps makes me a Dom who understands a woman who embraces the fact she has a need/urge to empower herself through something she now finds essential.
Him: replace the word abuse by “early initiation”and it changes the context completely.
Me: abuse is NOT early initiation.
Him: nonethless.. it change your mental/sexual roadmap completely.
Me: my roadmap was changed even before the abuse
Him: love and affection can only be shown nowadays through very distinct mechanisms
Him: love and affection then can only be shown through the dynamics of guidance, discipline and punishment. Wouldn’t that be true..?
Me: no, love and affection can be shown through many ways
Him: Which one of them is still inside your head when you lay at night and crave submission..?
JustTen posted and simply asked for our take on it. Agree, disagree, whatever.
The overwhelming majority of the replies to this were negative. This guy has been labelled a creep, a predator, dangerous, a perp, asshole, bastard, pathetic fuck – well, it’s an endless litany of insults really.
Naturally I don’t see it as they did. I rarely do. In the thread I said:
He’s not the one abusing these poor little girls. He’s not doing the “initiating”. He’s taking something that already happened and using it. I don’t see that as the horror it’s being portrayed as here.
Lots of people are abused. I was, too. It happens. Nobody can continue your (not you specifically, you generally) victim status except your own self.
At least this guy here is honest. He sees that there is a phenomena that happens with abuse “victims”, something within that appeals to him, or makes them “easier” to dom. (If anything, he just admitted he’s lazy.)
Big deal. I am sure that I exhibit behaviors leftover specifically from being abused that my Master uses to his advantage. Why shouldn’t he? He can’t change what happened, he can’t “fix” me, I am who and what I am and he loves me for it. He uses it. I’d be more pissed off if he treated me like a china doll (and, in my mind, perpetuated more abuse by doing so) because I was “damaged goods”. That he uses me, and my various leftover reactions, to his advantage proves to me that he doesn’t think I’m damaged.
If that guy were to have said he wanted to “fix” you, he’d be applauded. White Knight Syndrome. Whatever. But since his angle isn’t so altruistic, he’s suddenly dangerous? Come on. That seems a tad overreactive to me.
Not everybody is seeking the same thing from a bdsm relationship. Not everyone views it in such a romantic, “he always has my best interests in mind and he’s gonna fix me up all better!” sort of heart-shaped bubble way.
Personally, I rather like his take on it in some ways. I was abused right? Can’t go back in time and change a single second of it. Would I have been a kinky-fuck anyway? Probably. I think so.
So, if I believe I would have been kinky anyway, and this abuse happened, why not try to find the advantages of it rather than continuously lamenting over the shoulda /coulda/ woulda’s. Rather than remaining in poor-me territory.
This right here: “she grew up to crave the sensations ( not the emotions) what was done to her before.” and this: “makes me a Dom who understands a woman who embraces the fact she has a need/urge to empower herself through something she now finds essential.”
He isn’t saying that HE’S taking advantage of it – he’s saying that SHE is. That she SHOULD. It’s there, it happened, embrace it and make it healthy (as healthy as kink can be anyway). Use it instead of fighting it.
The sort of stuff I experienced when I was being abused are exactly the things I crave now, exactly what I find essential to my happiness and well-being. I am embracing, accepting, and seeking those things out. Not those same emotions though – which he identifies as being a no-no, I might add.
I may very well have been initiated early to accept and eroticize pain. To see love in discipline. If that has made Master’s life easier, then great. I’d rather my past make his life easier than harder.
~~*~~
There were a few people who shared my opinion, most did not.
Maybe I have an extremely detached view of having been abused, but I just don’t see the point in always looking back on it with anger and sadness and carrying that around and letting it affect my future. Yeah, it sucked but it happened. Nothing will ever change what happened so why not use it as much as one can to an advantage?
I just don’t *get* the idea that to do so is “repeating the trauma”.
So I asked the girl if I could copy and paste it here because I have brilliant readers. What do you think?
Is the term “early initiation” really as offensive as people said it was?
Do you think he’s “preying” on weak, broken women?
I really was shocked at the venom in the negative replies when I was sitting there thinking, hey! yeah! I get that.
LOL. I’m always out in left field somewhere I guess.
But discuss it with me, if you want. I’m interested!
Tags: fetlife, nature vs nurture, opinions, questions
Uncategorized | kaya | 
Friday February 6th, 2009 10:19am
It does sound like hes lazy.
I can totally see where youre coming from. I see the pattern that some women find and continue it, even if subconsciencously. They know what they need and want, some are honest enough to embrace it and work with it.
You cant fight the past, you take from it that which works for you and make the best of what is sometimes a shitty situation.
“make the best of what is sometimes a shitty situation.”
Yeah. That’s what I think too.
I share your opinion, as does Frank. It freaks people out.
Well. At least I’m in good company then.
I understand what you’re saying, and I agree that he seems lazy. The trouble is, how do you tell the difference between the women who are pursuing the BDSM-submissive lifestyle in order to empower themselves over their former abuse from those who are seeking something that continues to damage them. (I deliberately use the word damage instead of hurt because, well, it’s BDSM and that’s not very helpful.)
I wouldn’t necessarily say the theory is wrong, not rationally at least, but there’s so much more to it that I think it – especially coupled with a lazy person – is dangerous. Not all abused people are “broken” (still over were ever) but those who are… can you always tell the difference from the outside? Can they tell you the difference? Would you know if things were suddenly leading to an area where there was severe depression, suicidal thoughts, etc? Could a lazy dom building upon previous poor patterns that he wants to take advantage of be mindful enough and helpful in a crisis?
I wouldn’t risk it.
I don’t know. Part of me is thinking that if they are still that “broken” they have no business getting into a bdsm relationship of ANY sort, and if they do? *shrug* Stupid should hurt maybe?
On the other hand – it might be what spurs them on the heal, too. It might be that seeing how what they previously perceived as “damage” is used in a positive manner by a man might begin to erase some of the negative associations they have.
And, I have issues with the idea of the dom having to be the caretaker anyway. If there were tendencies toward suicide or other psychological breakdowns, which can happen regardless of past abuse and regardless of the dom being lazy or on the ball, I don’t believe it’s on the dom’s shoulders to watch for that. I’m a big fan of personal responsibility these days.
Also.. the poor patterns you mentioned? That’s partly what I’m disagreeing with in the whole concept. That the lessons (for lack of a better word) that were learned during the abuse ARE NOT poor patterns that need “fixed”, but rather embrace them as patterns that work best in a current life as a submissive.
The way I think of it is:
1. I was ‘initiated’ into the world of bondage and beatings before I was ever supposed to have been.
2. By giving in to the cravings for domination, which MAY or may NOT be a product of my abuse, I am taking control
3. By having a LOVING Master who takes my previous abuse in mind as he does his job, I can overcome it.
4. By replacing the memories of abuse with memories of pleasure, I change the association in my mind.
“Someone that loves me can hurt me” becomes “Someone I love can hurt me to give me what I need.”
Exactly! Gosh, you said it so much better than I did. :-)
I think in steps! Sometimes it is useful, other times it is not.
I had NO business asking Master to take on the role he has when I did, as I was on the verge of killing myself daily. However, it turned out to be exactly why I needed to NOT want to do that.
Though, granted, it IS a rather unusual type of therapy…
Kaya — Oh, thank you for this excellent and thought-provoking post! This is why I adore your blog!
My POV, a POV of someone who was not abused in childhood but in her teen years, and then date-raped in college.
Yeah, “early initiation” really struck me as offensive. It’s one thing to say you’re going to help girls use their abuse experiences in a more positive way (and I’m totally down with that) but we are referring to the original abuse, and it shouldn’t be portrayed in a positive light. “Initiation” is an incredible thing: it’s done to people on the threshold of adulthood to help them make the transition. Heh, in Western society even something like a wedding is a form of initiation, come to think of it. It’s something that people CHOOSE to go through (there may be societal pressures, but you still have the option of saying, “fuck that noise!”) and the making of the choice is “empowering” of itself. Abuse is not something that, as a child, you can choose. It is done TO you, and instead of helping people transition or move forward in their lives, it often traps them emotionally from moving forward until after years of therapy. Initiation is a force for positive growth. Points for you if you can turn your abuse into that, but it certainly wasn’t that to start with! Your abusers weren’t thinking, “How can I help this child be a stronger person and deal with the shit life throws at them?”
I am against moaning and sobbing and making yourself a victim for the rest of your life, but the fact is that abuse is going to leave you in a space to potentially do just that, and initiation is set up to make you stronger and self-sufficent.
My abuse was weird and has left me with trust issues that my Master has to deal with. My date-rape left me not dating any men for years, and made me throw out my desires for rough sex and “non-consent play,” which I’d had up ’till that point.
I was lucky enough to break through that on my own, but it certainly hasn’t made those activities hotter for me! When my Master holds my head and fucks my throat, for the rest of my life I’ll have to remember that asshole doing the same thing to me after I’d said “no,” and make myself relax and try to enjoy it the way I ought to be able to, the way I would have before my rape.
So my abuse did not not make my Master’s life any easier. Instead, he has to deal with someone with twitchy trust issues that come up at odd moments. The rape thing doesn’t really get in the way of our sex life — it just stole a little bit of pleasure away from me.
I don’t know if this guy is preying on abused women, and I won’t be able to figure it out from that conversation. But I do know that predators CAN learn the language of “empowering women” (blah, blah and etc.) and use it to cover up their own abusive desires in a PC and manipulative coating. Imagine the gal who gets stuck with that — actually, I know one who was (and who had been abused by her father as a child). She was miserable, but couldn’t figure out why. She kept repeating what he’d said to her, and she believed what he said, and she couldn’t quite square it with her experiences and her “women’s intuition” (for lack of a better term) but she clung to what he TOLD her. Not a pretty scene, although I’m happy to report she, after 8 years, finally got out of that relationship.
On the other hand, this guy could just be an honest lazy bloke who used the word “initiation” wrong.
(I’ve just banged this out with no caffeine in my system, yet, so please excuse any missing words or typos!)
I see what you’re saying about initiation – but
I always have a but.
My dad describes boot camp as an initiation to war. So, yeah, he signed up for it and I get what you are saying there, but just because it’s signed up for doesn’t gaurantee that it’s going to be good. He said boot camp was hell, but war was even worse. But without that ‘initiation’, he’d have never made it through war.
Maybe not the best example either, but there probably isn’t one..lol
Portraying it in a good light though? Meh. I don’t know! I mean, lemme put it this way, sorta kinda.
Let’s say that I, because of earlier abuse, can give spectacular blow jobs. (just pretend with me..lol) But lets say my blow job skillz are awesome spefically because I’ve been trained to give them since I was 5 years old.
Now, lets say that Master particularly enjoys my dick sucking techniques, techniques that I learned over years of abuse.
Is he a creep or an abuser if he acknowledges that, yes the abuse was regrettable, but damn if he don’t like how I suck cock.
That’s putting a positive spin on it, I think, and it’s actually something I can hold on to and NOT feel ashamed of about having had that experience. You know what I mean? Does that make sense or not?
I’ll do more later – I’m running outta time online..lol :*
Yes, you’re totally right that initiation isn’t always a walk in the park. In fact, I think by definition it NEVER is. Your boot camp example is the same as some aboriginal lad being sent out to spend three nights in the forest, and not come home until he’s killed some wild beastie with nothing but sharpened stick and his wiles.
But it does come down to the consent, and to the intent of the elder putting the kid through the situation.
Like I said, if you can take abuse and turn it around, well, that’s more than good, that’s amazing.
What I meant by positive light however, is that no matter much Master S. loves your bjs, no one is going to say that it was a good thing that at five years old you were taught how to give them! I mean, you can joke about it (because you have to, don’t you!) but in all seriousness, it’s not a good thing that it happened to you, or anyone else.
I don’t want you to feel ashamed of your abuse, and I don’t feel ashamed about mine. But there is a difference between a person who’s been abused (and her partner) turning a bad experience into something positive in her life, and someone who has not been abused saying, “Well, abusing 5 year old girls is really just early initiation!” I would respectfully suggest we take this fellow back to when he was five and have him experience some “early initiation” — it might change his mind, rather!
What I’m trying to say is that I’m all for anything that helps people deal with their shit and move on. But I’m chary of people who have not been abused coming up with terms like “early initiation.” I’m also quite suspicious of people who look specifically for abuse “survivors,” because that does smack of looking for someone weaker than you whom you can manipulate. Although it is nice for us people-who-have-been-abused to feel sexy and desirable, I give you that! ;)
Hmmm, did that make any sense at all or am I just incoherently rambling…?
I had to look up chary. :P
About initiation – when I think of a child and someone saying “Oooh I wanna initiate her to the ways of submission right now” then my reaction to it is closer aligned with yours. Or, more along the lines of murderous. ;-)
But when I consider adult women I know who are submissives and have a history of abuse and think “Gee, we were initiated early on to the ways of submission” – I have zero negative feelings about it. It’s just a fact, not a regret. I’d even go so far as to say that (I believe) it’s given me a headstart and considering that I AM a submissive, I’m glad it happened.
that does smack of looking for someone weaker than you whom you can manipulate.
See, I don’t think that’s a bad thing at all..lol. I think it, again, points to him being lazy – but searching specifically for someone weaker than himself because they are easier to dom (manipulate) isn’t necessarily an indication of bad intention. Just says he’s lazy. Says he likes that some of the work has been done for him.
I wish I had more time. I’m rushed and typing too fast and having hard time keeping track of what I’ve already said. Sorry if I’m coming across as any loopier than normal. ;-)
You know, kaya my dear, I think by this point in time we are actually just saying the same thing, but still somehow managing to disagree about it! :D
Hugs to you, and I hope you and Master S. have a lovely (and painful!) weekend!
Kaya, if I may…initation is an invited event. Abuse is not invited, you don’t ask for it, it is forced upon the victim. This is where I differ with the guy. No one asked to be a victim.
While I cant say I was abused through my entire childhood, I can say there were instances of abuse. With a fair amount of certainty I think I would have been submissive either way. My Sir understands that part of me. When we first began I resisted alot because of how similar it was to the way my parents treated me.
The difference is that none of what I do with my Sir includes anger. It’s more effective because it reminds me of scary past incidents, because now I can contrast the scary parts with the wonderful, caring, sexi parts.
That dude may in fact be lazy, but it’s probably true that abused persons adhere more quickly to a submissive lifestyle. As long as he’s not out to repeat the damage there is no more harm being done than is usual in BDSM.
Right! And he specifically said “minus the emotions” of the abuse, so yeah. :-)
I don’t think it’s necessarily a bad thing to use past abuse in your BDSM relationship. It’s probably a pretty good way of working through things, empowering yourself and using what happened to you in the best way possible. Sounds like a good thing to me. Although I haven’t been abused in my life, I have had stuff happen to me and I recognize that some of these things show up in my kink life. They affected me, so obviously they will affect my kink/relationship/sex life. In a way they enrich them.
I think it’s perfectly healthy for a Dom to want to use your past experiences in his relationship with you. I don’t think it’s a ‘red flag’ that your Dom recognizes what effects the abuse had on you and how it shaped you, and that he uses that in his relationship with you.
I do, however, see it as a red flag when a Dom specifically searches for women who have been abused.
Compare it to Doms who look for very young and inexperienced subs. It could happen that a Dom falls for a young and inexperiences sub, it happens. And that’s fine. There are certain things you’ll encounter in that kind of relationship, the sub is more likely to be more insecure about herself and BDSM in general, and she’ll have less knowledge and social support to protect herself. That’s ok, we were all new sometime. However, if a Dom specifically searches for young and inexperienced subs (read: insecure women with less knowledge and support), that’s a huge red flag.
This guy is looking for women who have had their selfrespect beaten down, who have probably had unhealthy dependent relationship, and all the other negative stuff that comes with abuse. He thinks abused women make better servants, ’cause they’ve already had their first initiation.. *shakes head*
See, I don’t think that’s true. From what I know (but I’m a psychology student, not a specialist in this area nor an abuse victim) abuse can leave some serious emotional injuries. It takes work to heal them. And abuse can also cause trust issues and other stuff that would be a problem in any relationship (including BDSM relationship). The idea that abuse would make someone more suitable for D/s is just.. God. I have no words.
I think BDSM is a healthy thing. I think people who have suffered abuse can have healthy relationships. I don’t think people who have suffered abuse make better subs. I don’t think Doms who have a sub who has been abused are bad Doms. I don’t think it’s wrong to use those experiences in you relationship. But I think someone who is looking specifically for abused subs is someone I would stay away from.
But why would you see it as a red flag if they specifically searched for inexperienced subs? I’m not sure I get why that’s a bad thing. I can actually see valid reason why one would narrow their search to those parameters.
Yes, I can certainly think of circumstances in which it would be reasonable to look specifically for young, inexperienced subs. Nothing is ever black or white, and when it comes to relationships and looking for partners things definitely get complex.
However, young&inexperienced positively correlates with some other characteristics. For instance, young&inexperienced probably goes together with (but I haven’t studied this, I’m just adding an example to an example :P) less social support, less ability to protect yourself from harmful thing, less knowledge about your boundaries, less knowledge about safe BDSM play and many other things. So when someone is looking specifically for that, it makes me wonder.. why would they prefer someone with less knowledge? Less social support? It’s a red flag. Not all Doms who look for young&inexperienced subs are bad. Some are awesome. But I get cautious when I hear a Dom say that.
This man is looking for someone who has been abused. He prefers that, because he feels that the effects of that abuse make that person a better partner. That doesn’t seem right to me. Many people who have been abused are easier to hurt, it’s easier to get them in a abusive situation again. He’s looking for that specifically. He’s not just looking for a sub, he’s looking for a sub with abuse-characteristics. I’m sure there are men who look for this who are fine, but I think this is a big red flag. I’d stay away from him. People who have been abused more often have psychological problems, and he’s looking *specifically* for that. It’s one thing to fall in love with someone who had been abused and not mind that, even use it in your relationship because you can see some good sides to it. It’s another thing alltogether to search specifically for abused women, who have psychological problems more often than non-abused people. My experience is that healthy people prefer healthy people…
I just want to add that I have really tried my best to put this in the most non-offensive way possible, I realize that this is a difficult subject and I don’t think I have much authority to speak about it. I apologize in advance if I worded things in a harsh way, English is not my native language and although I’ve become near-fluent, I know I still don’t always ‘feel’ how a sentence or word will come across. It’s always difficult to say things about women who have been abused without getting trapped in victim-talk, and I definitely don’t want to ‘brand’ women who have been abused as damaged goods for life. But women who have been abused are statistically (in large groups) different on some characteristics from women who have not been abused. And I think (but I don’t have the literature to back me up here) those are most often not the most positive characteristics.
*breathes*
God I’m trying so say this right :D.
(i first read this in my mobile phone so could not type comment… hope today would not be too late!
PS. English is not my first nor second language, so you will find little fun and lots of mistakes…)
“But why would you see it as a red flag if they specifically searched for inexperienced subs?”
Because Marijke and you were talking in different dimensions. i also see it dangeous to overgeneralize a possibility to a standard solution. Oh that would be nice for who are into this, yes of course. i wish i were enslaved at birth and trained since age 3 in all the serving kills. But that will never be a reason for me to make a way to help a early initialled/abused sex(or not) slave by let her seeing these “advantages”, even she is submissive or somehow adapts to enjoy it. Because these are two questions. For each individual person, the judgement is entire, based on your own value and you can think it is not bad on the other hand, etc. etc. And this would be a lucky pshyco solution for some abuse victims. But nobody can conclude from his/her own trust to the relationship claiming that this could be good, normal, including benefitial.
It the same thing that happens to the abortion. When a girl suffers the result of a violation, it is a right, a possible choise she can make. But that is not the logic reason to legitimate abortion (so people are in polimics) so that violators would take no responsibilities…!
*sighs*
At 1,155 words, I finally give up trying to write a comment. I’m gonna have to just post in my own blog today or tomorrow. You make me think you much. Curse you! :D
~Chloe
You know, if you and I ever got together there would not be one moment of silence. :D
IFFFF you two ever get together….I am investing in extra strength industrial ear plugs with dual hearing protection.
*Cringes*.
LOL
“If a boss was looking for a worker, and he decided a good work ethic is best based on illegal, brutal, harmful treatment in the past? And seeks out only victims of that abuse? Are we really thinking, given the way the idea was presented, that it’s anything less than exploitation of abuse?”
Wel said :).
I didn’t see this thread. Can you point me toward it?
I’m with you, though, all the way.
There are a lot of things left over from the abuse I’ve endured. Some are negative, like the fact that I have trouble processing emotions, and need to be “fixed” for lack of a better word.
Some, though, are positive from where I stand. My undying need to be found pleasing and/or useful by those with authority, for example.
Not necessarily those society views as having authority. Take cops, for example.
Throughout the course of my sordid life I think I’ve had two run-ins with the police that had positive effects on me. If only because they taught me that not all cops are pretentious ass holes.
The rest, that I can remember, nullified my respect for their position and, in result, their authority over me. Sure, they can still arrest me for breaking their laws (I say “their laws” because society as a whole doesn’t agree on every single law in place. Nor will they ever.). But knowing that has less of an effect than it would if I still believed all police officers were law abiding citizens who never used their authority to meet their own agenda. If I still believed that, I’d feel guilty for breaking their laws whereas now I just don’t care. (Sorry for the tangent… just had to explain.)
But let’s try a more innocuous example.
We’ll pretend Master has an absurd liking for homemade ice cream. Chocolate, especially. Whether or not He really does, I have no idea and strongly doubt (Wouldn’t He have mentioned it at least once in six years? lol), but for the purpose of discussion let’s pretend.
We’ll further pretend that growing up I was forced to make homemade chocolate ice cream on a regular basis and have perfected it to the point that I could make millions, even billions, if I sold it. But now I hate doing it. I still enjoy the result (homemade chocolaty goodness!) but the process pisses me off.
Should Master start making His own ice cream to “protect” me from having to deal with my past even though I’m recognized as one of the best? Or should I just suck it up and make the damn ice cream knowing full well that when I’m done I’m going to enjoy eating it just as much as He does?
I’m voting for the latter. I mean where’s the harm, really? I’m pissed off for a little while. Until I eat the ice cream. Then I forget that making it sucked.
I swear I used almost that same analogy on the thread. You’ll see it! (http://fetlife.com/groups/541/group_posts/85983)
For me, they are words on a screen. A glimpse as to what the person is really like. Is it a poor misrepensentation of himself, perhaps, but perhaps not. He could be a lazy predator, or he could not. I do get what he says when love and affection can be shown through punishment and discipline. It’s what I learned in my situation. If I acted out of his prescribed line, I would be disciplined and punished. If i acted in his line, I was rewarded. It is a conditioned response that I still have. I don’t freak when I fail, because I know that he isn’t going to threaten to leave or beat me, but I strive to please him. Do i have codependence issues, OH heck yeah, but i do think that the conditioning that I expierenced in the relationship primed me to a PE relationship. He could be meaning that about the early iniation. Does he exploit them, we don’t know.
I like that word “primed” better than intiation. I think that fits better.
For me, “replacing the word abuse with ‘early initiation’” feels very wrong. I agree with what Zille Defeu said about abuse happening To you, and initiation being a process which brings you into a different mindset. It does change the concept, but in a negative way.
But, I agree with you that there isn’t anything specifically wrong with searching for a submissive that has had that abuse in their past. I feel that everyone searches for different things in other people that satisfy the various needs/desires people have.
In terms of moving forward with this particular dominant, for me it would depend on how I had felt about him previously. I find the comment about early initiation off putting, but I wouldn’t label the dominant a predator because of it.
Initiation was certainly negatively responded to by the majority of people.
But sometimes people just get so … hysterical when abuse is even mentioned. Hard to say if that word was the trigger or if abuse was the trigger.
sorry for short post – short on time
he is lazy –
I have craved heavy hard hurt me sex since I was 10 years old and I wasn’t abused or molested until I was 14
I was who I am way before I was molested
I think he’s lazy too…lol
I have no patience for lazy – I want him to be just as good with his brain as his hands.
Sure beats getting involved with a vanilla jerk who beats the crap outta you in a non “power exchange” way.
Personally, I tend toward men who have been neglected by their mothers, exes and other women in their life. They seem to adore being showered with my attentions. Kinky sex may or may not come in to play, but I definitely have a penchant for taking men from beaten down underdogs to confident and in-control grown ass men. Is it manipulative to seek something that is exactly what you want and then try to bring out the best of it all? Maybe. But is that necessarily a bad thing?
I would say the intent of the stronger will is the difference. many abused people seek out more abuse. Psychologists will say it is for a number of reasons, it’s familiar, the “victim” is repeating a situation over and over trying to come out on top of it, or “master” the scenario for once…. If a person will seek out an abuser ANYWAY then aren’t they better off with a more discerning and controlled partner? Where empowerment is even an OPTION? Because, from what I see you all who are really masochistic subs, man, you are BADASSES.
I might have kinky sex or like to do shit that makes my man feel good, but damn. The dedication and pure toughness, physical, mental and emotional is just mindblowing! To go from unwilling victim in the past to present day full-steam-ahead active participant in the kinds of “play” that y’all engage in must be incredibly fulfilling. Hats off!
Is it bad that I just thought what he said was hot? :-P
…seriously, I’m sure I should possibly be concerned with this issue on some level, but I figure that if what’s happening now between him and whomever is consensual, then okay.
HouseWench states that she’s ‘changing the associations in her head’ and that’s exactly what I see it as. By taking ‘control’ of what was done (in as much as a slave can take control), by ‘empowering myself’ with it…I own it now (obviously, as much as *I* can own something).
I was never sexually abused, but I did get the snot beaten out of me by both my parents and my first (vanilla) boyfriend. Guess when I’m happiest? When Daddy’s beating the snot out of me. Okay, maybe not while but after, but y’all get me.
The context now is totally different.
I honestly can’t say if I was destined to be a kinky fuck or if I wasn’t…I can’t say if I would be NOW if not for Daddy. But I’ve become what I have, I am who am I – and I make no apologies for it.
Kaya,
I followed that post and found myself struggling to come to some definitive opinion one way or another. I’ve concluded the following.
This Dom is not very bright and has a tendancy to rely on stereotypes. The idea that an abused woman makes a better servant is a dangerous generalization. They can, especially if they’re still in that place of fear where they’ll do whatever to avoid the abuse. But then, they’re not ready for a BDSM relationship, are they? But I know two abused women who would make horrible servants since they’ll tell anyone whatever they think the person wants to hear to make them happy. Does anyone want a sub/slave who will lie at the drop of a hat? The simple fatc is that hsi initial assumption isn’t true.
This Dom isn’t a predator, or he’s a very good one who has mastered that skill of looking so normal. He wants to give his subs what they crave, physically, and emotionally. Several people have already commented that abuse survivors can crave the physical sensations but don’t want the negative emotional baggage that came with the abuse. He makes it clear that he wants to give women just those things, the physical cravings and the lack of emotional baggage. Honestly, that’s what kind of Dom I see myself as. I love the idea of giving a sub just what they crave. So, If I had access to you, Kaya, I’d be happy beating you black and blue and fucking your mouth until you gag. If I had a chance to play with DL’s Toy, I’d be thrilled (I hope) at manhandling her violently and taking her ass brutally. Why, because that’s the kind of submission you two crave anyone who can;t see that hasn’t been paying attention). One the othe hand, when I was dominating my frieind last october, I didn’t use hardly any pain play because I knew she didn’t enjoy/crave it.
Where was I, oh, the third thing I know is that this Dom doesn’t think about words very much. Yes, calling abuse an initiation was crass and insulting to many abused women. BUT, the balance of his conversation made it clear that he didn’t see the abuse itself as good or empowering. He saw the woman’s acceptance of her own needs as empowering. Granted, he sees abuse as causing the need for pain and domination, and that’s not always true. it’s an open question to whether the craving for pain a submission is caused by abuse, or whether the abuse was enabled by the cravings for pain and submission. I suspect it goes both ways, a two way street. I’m sure there are some women in BDSM relaqtionships that would kill the MF who tried to abuse them and love the Dom who took them like thay want. What makes the difference? Intent and perception. So what Scott does to kaya isn’t abuse, for obvious reasons, but if Joe Blow does the same things to his girl friend, he may well go to jail, and justifiably so.
There was a Star Trek NG episode that looked this straight in the face without flinching. They ran into a human child raised as a cardasian. By human standards, this kid had been abused; regualr beatings, severe control over every part of his life, the works. if you can imagine it (non-sexual), it happened to this kid. In cardasian eyes, this was normal child rearing. Most importantly, to the kid, this was normal and right. That was how his dad (the cardasian one) showed his love, but readying him for cardasain life. Picard decided that the kid was not being abused and returned him to the only parents he knew, the cardasian family.
Well, I’ve done it again. Stepping aside and returning you to your normally scheduled kaya blog.
Dave
Dave, I really love that you referred to TNG! I’d forgotten about that episode, too. Although learning to respect other people’s cultures is pretty much a running theme through the series, and they have an episode of Voyager that’s pretty much the same.
Always good to find the other geeks! :D
OK… I’m gonna have to take this to email.
(but, in short, I agree with you).
[...] wrote this post today. And, as I’m practically having an affair with her blog, I became wrapped up in thinking [...]
I posted on your blog thought I’d come back and do the same here.
Sunnilady says:
I am a masochist with childhood abuse (molestation) and was raped as an adult by someone with authority over me. I have PTSD and are they all connected? yes in a way but I was a masochist before the childhood abuse and rape. I have had therapy and sorted out the differences. Triggers that come from the PTSD are completely different then the things that are connected to my sexual relationships. At this point in my life I can seperate those. Perhaps this Dom doesn’t understand the difference or how to proceed in Dominating someone who has these issues.
For instance – triggers for my PTSD include pillows over my head or a hood. I can be tied down by rope and that turns me on but a hood or suffocating is a trigger to the rape. If my M tried to work through that for his desire only it would ruin my healing process which is daily and for the rest of my life.
You can’t work through that without serious risk of injury to the psyche and usually a partner who you haven’t been with for years who understands it cant help you either.
They can work around the triggers and issues but in order to do that they have to know the entire story of what happened to you and what the triggers are. I highly doubt someone is going to trust this guy and bare their soul unless they are just as fucked up as he is and are co dependent thinking he can be her daddy and save her from her own demons she hasn’t figured out yet. Who are we to rescue these people? why try – that forum is a frustrating place.
This man is foolish to think he can figure it out with a online forum or private message – he is not a smart Dom and yes LAZY – emotionally LAZY.
sunnilady, I made my comment below about my Dom’s PTSD before I saw your comment. I agree with you completely.
I can relate to this but not on an ‘experienced past abuse’ level. I’m recovering from an eating disorder (hence why the comment is anonymous) and there are some rather un-PC ways this feeds into submission and utility D/s has for me. It’s not that the ED is over there and my desire to have kinky sex and submit is wholly segregated; it’s all me.
My disposition for ED comes from a constant desire to be better and do more and wocka, wocka, wocka. I am just mapped that way and I always will be; no use in denying it. The key for me is to manage the destructive aspects (like food restriction, depression, feelings of worthlessness). If I can manage those destructive behaviors and re-channel all this energy and desire to inspire pride and pleasure in others, why not use the motivation to enhance my abilities?
It’s not to say the boss is charged with the job of keeping my self esteem so high. I manage my illness, he is supportive. I make the relationship structure work for me though. My expectations of myself are impossibly high and if left unchecked can cause serious issues. The boss’s expectations of obedience and service are realistic and the relationship structure we engage in just happens to work as a release valve for me. I’ve found more peace embracing realistic rules and standards without all the destructive behaviors while pursuing this relationship dynamic.
I want to know I’m working toward a goal. I desire to prove myself again and again. I can’t fully wrap my head around the idea of love that isn’t earned again and again and I don’t think I ever will. Submission to my man lets me accept love and comfort and it puts me at ease. It works and I’m not engaging in such destructive behaviors.
When destructive behaviors are in remission and all is relatively well am I suppose to sit like a doll collecting dust? Because I’ve dealt with some real hell I’m not suppose to engage in anything other than sickeningly sweet and super-gentle interactions? We realize we’re playing with fire from time to time, as do most people who touch past abuses. Intention goes a long way. Using the mapping of something negative doesn’t make the person a predator or evil. Even if there is a danger that an unsavory character might do some damage – Then again I know I’m not submitting to an unsavory character so I feel comfortable.
Finally – my opinion about the guy in question? I’m not sure he’s looking very deeply at the subject. “Abused woman = good servants” seems like such a generalization and makes me think he’s either short sighted or lazy. Of course it’s a short conversation too and he could just suck at expressing himself. Personally, I’d probably walk away from someone enthused about my ED experience. Happy I’m mapped for: a strong desire to please; willingness and desire to engage in emotional masochism; an ability to internalize rules and standards quickly, is a far cry from being happy that I was: a depression ridden; paranoid; a girl who would flip if she ate over 900 calories in a day without spending two hours in the gym. Language is important, language reveals intention and opinion more often than not. His words and phrase leave me with me bad taste in my mouth.
Sorry about the long comment.
Better and shorter way to express my opinion:
You can appreciate and utilize the wiring and still pity the circumstance for which it came about if it was negative.
[...] think I’m going to take a page from kaya’s book and use FetLife conversations to A.) fill in for a proper blog post [sticks out tongue at kaya] and [...]
Personally I had a knee-jerk reaction that he was out to exploit women who are still vulnerable from their abuse. I realize now I dislike his wording. He seems to just glaze over abuse. It really bothered me.
Meh. People are always getting hysterical on FetLife. It’s why I rarely bother with it these days
Do i dare admit that i see your point and share your view? Well, I do.
The good thing about it is that if the girl doesn’t share this same opinion, she can close the browser, walk away, and hit “ignore” the next time.
Right?
This to kaya not toy but since toy and I are friends, I’m commenting on her comment…
I think the guy is a creep! Not everyone is going to close the browser on this guy. If someone is new and hasn’t connected their prior abuse to the being dommed thing than with a guy like this it could push them into flashbacks. They might think they are empowering themselves but if they don’t correctly understand the motivations of the “Domm” in question, they are setting themselves up for a world of hurt. If the guy cares about them and if trust is built up it is a different thing altogether. That is why I enjoy kaya’s blog and slutondisplay because of the self-awareness and the care behind what their Doms do. But this guy? I see an opportunist without the emotional depth to get what he’s diving into.
The way he expressed himself disturbed me on so many levels.
kaya, women who get into something they don’t understand are not dumb. They are naive, and their naivity is being taken advantage of. It is a big difference. And when a relationship with a guy like this ends–devoid of the care that the naive women thinks exists–it is completely devastating and I can’t see anything to snark about in a situation like that.
There is so much care behind your relationship compared to someone who just wants an abused woman to beat on. It is *totally* different.
In a situation like that though, where a person hasn’t healed enough (or come to terms with past abuse and current activities), I don’t think it would matter WHAT kind of person they were with. They shouldn’t be engaging in this if they don’t have the self-awareness to do so without it being a harmful relationship.
And there is nothing saying that he’s only looking for women who haven’t dealt with past abuse, who aren’t already healed yet still maintain some of the personality traits that often accompany having been a victim.
I’m not so sure about women who react badly to Doms like this guy as being unprepared for relationships in general. I managed to deal with my inner woundedness prior to my ex-Dom by being very self-reliant and by “mothering” myself. But having a male react in a domly way to this squirreled-away aspect of myself *and* to push me to lay this part of myself open to vulnerability was a new–and irresistable–direction for both of us. And explosive.
He didn’t sytematically seek out someone like me like the “Dom” in mentioned in your blog. I think I was my ex-Sir’s first experience but he reacted with the same lack of emotional understanding, and hunger, as the guy you write about. And I knew about “normal” relationships before this experience. But this type of relationship is pretty intense and different.
Okay, here’s my comment, Kaya. I am a sexual abuse survivor and a submissive. And a mental health professional with lots of experience working with abuse survivors. About ten years ago, I did a survey on a spanking newsgroup addressing the issue of past childhood abuse (both physical and sexual). More than fifty percent of the submissives on the newsgroup that responded (don’t recall exactly how many but it was over 50) had never been sexually or physically abused.
For those of us who were abused, in my case, overcoming my infant and childhood oral rape included working with a loving partner who knew of my history and helped me get through it so that I could give a great blow job AS AN ADULT, thus, reclaiming my mouth as my own and putting me in control (although I’m a submissive, I DO like control!) I own my mouth and what I do with it is consentual. Adults give consent. Toddlers can’t. I also had some good psychotherapy, both individual and group.
The only other issue from a mental health vs. abuse perspective (for me) is that if my sexual partner does something that triggers a flashback, we would have to stop whatever we were doing so that I could regroup as an adult. If I am having a flashback, I become two or three years old (or younger) and frankly if my partner knew this and kept going anyway, that would skeeve me. I don’t want a partner who isn’t sensitive to my need to control things when I start to have a flashback. If a flashback renders me as a two year old, I can no longer be a consenting adult (even consenting enough to hand over power to a Dom).
A good book to help a husband/lover/whatever understand how to be supportive if their mate has a sexual abuse history is “Ghosts in the Bedroom, A Guide for Partners of Incest Survivors” (Ken Graber) or “Allies in Healing: When the Person You Love Was Sexually Abused as a Child” (Laura Davis).
Good post, loved your post about mornings, you are ONE AMAZING WRITER! I’m one of your fans that would continue reading without any pictures or torrid sexual descriptions. You have a wonderful way with words and a kickass sense of humor.
Thanks for letting us in,
di
But do you think that his line about not repeating the emotions of past abuse could be indicative of him acknowledging that certain activities would need to be rewired to be done “as an adult”?
I don’t know that it is always possible to differentiate the emotions from the sensations. Sometimes (actually, usually) they are so intertwined that it would be difficult to extricate one from the other.
I also think that the rewiring needs to be an “inside job”. I HAD to be in control of my own rewiring. It had to be at my pace. I had to reclaim my sexuality as my own. No one else could have done that for me.
Despite years of therapy, I still occasionally have a flashback. If it is during an intimate moment, I point it out and stop the intimacy until I am capable of being an adult again.
I don’t think I could do any of this without someone that I loved and trusted who knew of my background and was willing to honor my need to reclaim my sexuality in whatever way I needed to do that. If my so doing jeopardized his need to Dom me, “there’s the door, don’t let it hit you on the way out!”
di
That guy sounded very much, from reading his convo, like he falls somewhere on the autistic spectrum, first off; possibly Asperger’s. He is absolutely deadpan honest when he speaks. I don’t think he has any ulterior motives whatsoever. I read that post in its entirety.
His honesty and yeah, poor choice of wording touched quite a few nerves.
I’ve had my own abuse issues. I may post about this myself as this discussion has made me think.
I agree with you Kaya; agreed with your reply over there.
No one can say for sure if that guy was a predator or not. I personally don’t think that he is. But he sure touched a lot of nerves.
I agree that a guy talking like that sets off red flags, so I also understood some of the other posters’ pov.
Taking the time to get to know that guy will answer all of their fears on whether he is a predator or not.
And lazy? Maybe so, but at least he admits it. He is totally up front about what he is looking for.
My own Master was the same way in that regard. His intro post on the profile where I met him offended me to the max at first, but he was just laying out exactly who he was; not trying to sugar-coat it to lure in some unsuspecting female.
I remember he when he put me on his favs list I was pissed, lol. I’m like, “who is this asshole? I don’t even know him!” And he sounded like a total jerk.
Now, two years later, evidently he was just who I was seeking!
*chuckles thinkin’ about it*
I feel that he is a predator, just like most Dom/me. Each Dominant looks for certain traits and doesn’t just pick up any Sally or Jimmy off the street. Simply stated…he knows what he wants…he looks for it like a hunter…..He wants this and this and this..and is willing to hunt for it. Which is, I feel, why all the questions of the submissive/slave’s past.
I feel that in a way he may be lazy, but also that he realizes his limitations and is looking for a sub/slave that fits his traits. Maybe he is not an all powerful Dom/me that can take any specific sub/slave and bend them to his will. Maybe he knows what he can and can’t do and is very selective of abused, easily dominated women/men? (I guess what I am attempting to say is that he knows what his comfort zone is)
So would this make him lazy or just knowing his limitations and going for what he knows he can control? So with that statement….is he a good Dom/me, because he truly KNOWS his limitations and accepts them and singles out women/men that fit his mold so to speak? I don’t know if he’ll be a good or bad Dom/me, but it seems he knows his limitations and thus looks for specific women/men that fit his mold and doesn’t like to deviate from that mold. So, taking into account of the little bit we do know, yes, he can be considered a predator, but with him knowing exactly what he wants, may make him an ok Dominant. Again, this is just my POV.
I will state that several submissives/slaves have had abuse in their past. I have had several with issues of abuse in their past, then again I have had a few that have come from non abusive families or past as well.
One person way back when stated to me “Either you are a slave or you’re not, or are a submissive or not, or are a Dominant or not”. I feel no matter what happened in the past, that we are who we are and should be proud of who we are.
I am very proud of kaya and our relationship. I attempt (being male = doing poorly) to let her know daily how much I appreciate her and her submission/slavery.
Sorry for so jumpy, but had a lot going through my mind (scary I know) and attempted to puke them out as they came.
Be well and Safe,
S
Scott,
Facinating. I’d never considdered the notion that he was one of those very self aware individuals. That might very well be the case, in which he’s doing many people a huge favor by not going past them (like a relief pitcher who’d never dream of trying to pitch an entire game).
As for predators and Doms, very funny, and very true. There has to be some bit of predator in someone who enjoys forcing our will on another. ;)
Dave
But you are aware of your emotions (I guess I’m saying that you are emotionally available) so you can respond to kaya’s emotions with empathy. You care about her. So when your rough play might trigger a flashback, there is *care* there that makes it a whole different experience–do you see that?
If this guy seeks out women with this abuse trigger (and I am one of them) without caring about them (and no, it doesn’t have to be romantic care) and understanding the dynamics behind abuse, then he is not just lazy, but dangerous. He is a predator but the kind that feeds off their earlier experiences. And if they disassociate from their emotions, this isn’t a good thing. That is not empowerment!
I agree that doms are predators and that they seek what they want. I am attracted to that. But when you are seeking out abused women–and abused women have self-esteem issues to deal with–you better damn well have an emotional awareness of what you are stepping into and I didn’t see it in his comments.
Ugh, this guy creeps me out on soooo many levels! Different from what you and kaya have.
I’ve got nothing to add to debate, but I came here to share this little jewel:
He’s been touching, and toying with me for a day. I get up from the couch to use the bathroom, after dutifully waiting for him to do his buisness before me. By the bathroom door, he grabs me. Holds my hips. Begins to unbuckle my belt and pull down the zipper of my jeans. Heavy breathing in my ear. I brace my hands on the open door, because I just *know* where this is going…
… and he pats my butt, saying he just wanted to help me get to the bathroom.
WHAT?!?!?!
I hate that. I HATE that. By hate, I mean he should do it more often.
Heh. ;)
LOL
TOOOOO funny!
Whether this guy is a perp or whatnot I commend his honesty in approaching the conversation so openly, that alone would spark my interest as it tells me he is up front and knows what he wants. i honestly think that there is some validity to his belief. Like anything else that does not mean it holds true for all, just that the majority of abuse victims that turn to BDSM have found a desire to either endure or inflict pain. That being said i think one would be challenged in explaining how previously experiencing abuse had absolutely no effect on this whatsoever.
I wasn’t going to get into this, but I was inspired by puppy’s comments above about flashbacks. Plus, my comment has a somewhat different twist that might be thought-provoking. I am a submissive and was not abused. My Dom, however, grew up with violence and abuse, and he has PTSD. One of his triggers is the sight of blood on skin. Seeing my menstrual blood during sex can trigger a flashback. It’s just awful for him. It can take him days to recover. He may experience panic, sweating, increased heart rate, fear of being around people, etc.
He’s working with an excellent therapist, and we’ve been able to work out ways of being intimate during my period. He’s learned, though, that it doesn’t work to try to just power through his triggers. That just makes matters much, much worse. Working with his therapist, he’s learned that he has to confront the underlying causes of his PTSD, and not just the triggers.
This is why I wonder about this Dom who views abuse as “early initiation”. It really grosses me out. How would he treat a trigger? Some Doms who don’t know anything about PTSD might try to get the sub to power through it all to prove her submissiveness. This is all about validating the Dom, without any regard for the sub’s well-being. As puppy said “If this guy seeks out women with this abuse trigger without caring about them and understanding the dynamics behind abuse, then he is not just lazy, but dangerous.” puppy’s right. I know something about PTSD, and it’s not sexy.
Finally, sorry kaya, I love your blog, but I disagree with your initial statement that “if he wanted to ‘fix’ her, he’d be applauded”. I would be afraid for any friend who got involved with someone so that they could be fixed. I’d also be afraid for any friend who thought they could “fix” someone. (“Idi Amin is your new boyfriend?” “That’s OK, I can fix him!”) I don’t think I can “fix” my Dom’s PTSD. I can be supportive, but only he can address his own issues. Even a therapist doesn’t “fix” someone; he or she just helps. Likewise, I don’t think my Dom can fix any of my issues. It just doesn’t work that way.
But “white knight syndrome” is very real. Whether it’s successful or not is another topic, but it does exist and there are doms who are drawn to the sad little kittens so they can “save” them.
And abuse triggers, PTSD – not every victim comes away with those leftover issues. I didn’t, not really. There are *some* minor, minor triggers and flashbacks but nothing serious. Who knows? Maybe he crosses off women who are that seriously affected by past trauma. Or maybe he enjoys the PTSD episodes.
Maybe some subs like wallowing in that past misery, too. We just don’t know nearly enough to jump to the conclusions that we do (myself included).
For ME though, I would not steer clear of someone who said what he said based soley on this sort of exchange. I’m not immediately thrown to the negative.
I wouldn’t call this being negative. I would call it being careful and watching out for yourself.
This guy is looking for a verrry specific trait in a girl, but not simply something such as brown hair and hazel eyes or a love of bondage–what he wants is a someone who is or has been broken and will be less capable of resisting his control. Yes he’s honest about his desire but we’re not talking about a preference for redheads but for damaged people. Why? Because undamaged submissive girls aren’t pliable enough? Would he also prefer a dog that had been beaten when it barked because it is more susceptible to his ownership?
The fact that he’s honest about this might seem applaudible, in a way, but depending how you look at it, it may also imply that he thinks that looking for someone who is damaged as if we’re checking if we have hobbies in common is okay.
To me, it seems that he is not looking for a person, a subject (to possibly turn into his object), but for an object.
This “Which one of them is still inside your head when you lay at night and crave submission..?” is saying yeah you might not be crashing and you may appear to be enjoying the hugs and sweet words, but do you remember that pain, the one you feel when you’re alone, can you feel it now? He is trying to push her into that (pain) zone to make her crave comfort and shelter to then take advantage of this need. I wonder how many times he has used that line already. There is a difference between a predator with etics and one without ethics. I don’t buy the empowerment talk–he first speaks of empowerment but then needs to remind her of the pain…
Just my two cents.
He might be dangerous or might not be, but I’m glad that I didn’t meet him or someone like him when I was 24.
Oooh. This is a good line – “Would he also prefer a dog that had been beaten when it barked because it is more susceptible to his ownership?”
Yes! Let’s say he did. Let’s say he enjoyed the fact that the dog had the traits from leftover abuse that determined its future behavior. The dog doesn’t bark. He wants a dog that doesn’t bark.
He didn’t abuse the dog.
He’s not going to continue to abuse the dog.
He’s just going to enjoy his non-barking dog.
Still an asshole?
And this line too. Another good one! “To me, it seems that he is not looking for a person, a subject (to possibly turn into his object), but for an object.”
Exactly! He wants an object and is too damn lazy to make his own. So he looks specifically for one already made.
I know you don’t agree with me…lol… but everything you said is exactly what I’m saying! Only I don’t see it negatively.
You may be right but it hurts me to know that someone might look for an abused dog or girl because it’s “easier”–that dog will be quiet because it’s afraid (even if there no longer is a reason to) and not because the owner has patiently taught it to be quiet.
It’s a different thing if both dominant and submissive not only agree upon this but if the girl also clearly understands that he *is* taking advantage of her pain, even in the first exploratory conversation. But can she fully understand that without falling for it first and being unable to choose with a sober mind? Maybe it doesn’t matter.
I guess that why it upsets me a little is because I’ve sort of been there and I think that even if you do talk about this exchange and rationalise it, you’re still emotionally drawn to the one who’ll drown out your pain with a more intense pain, which is fine with me he also loves you as a subject, but this particular guy just doesn’t seem to be into loving subjects.
Well, certainly it’s not an honorable approach. I agree that it’s sleazy.
But.
I can’t help but think that if he were really a dangerous predator, he most certainly would NOT be so upfront about it.
I mean, serial killers don’t walk up and shake your hand and say “Oh hey! Imma cut you up into pieces later! Fun!”… true psychopaths are very very good at hiding it and sneaking it up on the victim.
This guy? No hiding. No sneaking. For me and how I define an abuser, that just eliminates him completely.
I don’t know.
I was thinking of something else about the dog example but I’ve forgotten it..lol. Darn it!
I had to come back and reply to this. Not as a victim of abuse, but as an animal rescuer.
I have ferrets. I currently have two, but I’ve had up to 15 at once, and 31 total since I started being owned by them.
I’m done with ferrets, when these two elderly kids kick off. Done. No more, I can’t take the pain of losing them, dealing with people who have no idea what they’re doing, buying them without researching.
Thing is…I know what I’m doing with ferrets. I’m well-educated on the subject, and I’ve had lots of experience with them. So if someone wanted to give up a two-year-old bouncy ferret because they didn’t have enough time for them, I would pass the information on and HOPE it got a good home, hope things ended up well.
If someone came to me and said there was a damaged five-year-old ferret, afraid of people, bites when approached, showing signs of depression and wasting…I might step up to the plate and take it home. Despite not wanting to have any more ferrets, I might believe that I would be in a better position to help that critter than anyone else, and I would KNOW that I would be capable of it.
It’s not the same situation, obviously, but I do think the mindset here can factor in. I don’t even think it’s necessarily ‘white knight syndrome’ in either case. It’s my own experience showing me what’s out there, what’s possible. I actually even find fault with the assumption that this guy is lazy, necessarily. It seems to me abused girls, specifically girls who have been so abused that they fit stereotypes, would be MORE work than one that had no had those experiences.
Bah, it’s late and I’m tired and this is an older journal entry anyway. Hopefully it makes sense.
I love your perceptions! To this and the following comments–exactly!
Pain to drown out the pain but without a proper witness it is a vampiric experience (and one can’t be witnessed if one was never seen as a subject in the first place).
I grew up with abuse, my mom was very controlling and my dad was passive-they both beat the shit out of us growing up-As a child we don’t have a choice-sort of powerless; but as an adult you do have choices-i chose not to have my body abused in any way, like marks, etc. and as an adult i know i didn’t like ppl telling me what to do either!-its grating and annoying to me-luckily my husband is sensitive and i appreciate that in him-I need that in a spouce.but-as adults we get to CHOOSE that – we all take different paths in what makes us happy because we can. Nothing is forgotten-only left behind
Suzanne
This doesn’t take a lot of over thinking but a Sadist is not a normal trait-shouldn’t be used on ANYONE-including ppl who abuse animals. or abuse ppl! I’m also feeling these so called titles makes it easier to accept these kind of traits in a person -its easy to accept this behavior when you title yourself master, slave, lord, sir, blah blah blah- Sadists really do “appreicate” a person who will put up with that! no way can a trait like sadism have anything to do with love , words like slut bitch your a cunt-those words amd behavior does not fall into the catagory of love. I mean i could never smile placidly unless I was emtionally immature or just didn’t think much of myself to be called insulting names like cunt, slut, whore it reminds me of being in school and ppl putting ppl down……… as usual i never re read what i type -fires the typist – again I’m facinated with this whole bdsm thing-its soooo odd!!!