Babbles part 2.
(This is further thought on the possibility of M/s with children and careers that I talked about in the last half of this post.)
I’ve been trying to come up with another, better, way to explain what I meant in that other post. Because it seemed like people were thinking I meant that M/s isn’t possible *at all*, or that there is some book of guidelines somewhere. Which is silly, of course, because there are no guidelines except your own. The intimate details of what you and your partner define your relationship by are your own.
But I tend to separate the descriptive terms of ‘Master and slave’ from the process of internalizing enslavement. And that’s where I think the confusion is.
I wholeheartedly agree that being someone’s slave is accomplished merely by being, and doing, whatever it is that your Master wishes. I am not a slave fit for anyone other than my own Master, just as none of you would fit with him. He’s made me be what HE wants, and by the very basic definition of ownership, we’re Master and slave. In someone else’s opinion, I’m not a slave at all. I may not even fit their expectation of a submissive, let alone a slave. But none of that matters a whit to us because we fit each other.
I don’t think it’s defined by how much pain you can take, or by whether or not you’re online or living together, sharing a marriage bed or kept in a kennel, or any of the other fine, minute details of how you do it.
I also think that any of us who truly are dedicated to pleasing our Masters, and who have Masters dedicated to owning us, take what we do very seriously, give it our all (mostly) every day, take pride in our roles and find extreme joy and pleasure (usually) in it.
But I don’t think *any* of that is the same thing as internalizing slavery. I think that internalizing things is not easy, it is a long process and certain things can not only hamper that process but make it entirely impossible, no matter how strong your dedication is.
About the only analogy that I can compare it to is the institutionalization that occurs to prisoners. A lot of people want to deny the existence and validity of the internalization of slavery, but it’s pretty hard to deny the validity of institutionalization, I’d think.
So let’s operate under the assumption that institutionalization is real, it is a long-term psychological “trauma”. Prisoners come to a place, mentally, where they are unable to function in society (or believe they cannot). They’ve internalized the values and modes of prison life and behavior as “normal”. What lies outside this new “norm” is fearful, terrifying, unwanted. So much so that they go to lengths to not have to leave. Committing new crimes to get back to what is their comfort zone, among other things (we’ve all seen The Shawshank Redemption? Remember Brooks?)
So if we can agree that institutionalization is a real affliction, we should also be able to agree that there are certain instances where institutionalization probably *could not* happen.
It probably is not going to happen if you are doing a 30-day stint in the county jail for unpaid parking tickets.
It probably is not going to happen if you are under house-arrest.
It probably is not going to happen if you are doing 1-3 for tax evasion.
It’s also unlikely to happen if, while in prison, even long-term, the prisoner is allowed access to things and activities that combat the psychological break-down that creates institutionalization. Getting an education, working, contact with family and friends, interactions, conversations that stimulate the mind, being prepared for civilian life. If you never completely remove the intricacies of civilian life, I’m not sure how one could completely lose touch with it.
We agree? Yay! I knew you would. 
I don’t think that M/s is on par with being in prison. But I do think the internalization process is similar. I think that internalizing a new norm, new behaviors, new concepts, all of those things are more *difficult*, if not impossible, to do when one is constantly and consistently still exposed to the “old” norms of society. And if you are working and raising kids, you can’t pull yourself out of society completely. You still have to maintain a level of society-defined normalcy.
And maybe some of you don’t. Maybe you don’t maintain that normalcy for the sake of your kids or to appease your boss. There are always going to be exceptions.
So every little thing that plucks away the hand of control limits the process of internalization. A job, a child, school, friends.. whatever. If your Master is not also your employer, then he is deferring control of you to your boss. When playtime is curtailed because Baby Jane puked in her crib, he’s deferred power to your child. You have to be untied because class starts in an hour? Loss of control.
None of that is a *bad* thing, or a negative judgment, or anything like that. They are merely things that combat the process of internal enslavement. If you view internal enslavement as brainwashing, you should be able to understand how difficult it would be to brainwash someone if you are, on a daily basis, sending them off somewhere where all of your hard work is systematically being erased.
But what if Master has ordered you to work? Or ordered you to go to school or ordered you to bear his child? I think that’s a slippery slope. Because no matter what the reason for doing it is, they are still things that limit control and power. And the more limitations you have, the more impossible it becomes.
Do I think it can happen *anyway*, with, as Sinn said, a really diligent Master and slave? Maybe. Maybe if all of the pieces fell perfectly in place… but I think what is more likely to happen is that the pair of them will think they are doing it, up until a time comes when each of those interferences start to disappear and they get the perspective of comparison and realize they weren’t.
Just look at the differences that occur when the kids go to grandma’s for the weekend. I know for us it’s a profound difference, not only in our playtime and sessions but merely in our mannerisms and behavior. So of course I expect there to be a world of difference when the kids actually move out. Once I have that other perspective, I betcha a dime to a dollar that I’m discussing how much we *didn’t* have it before. We just thought we did.
I already have the perspective on the differences between working and not working and how working creates another huge limitation on things, no matter that it is HIS decision and his order that I go back to work. That doesn’t change the interference of it any just because he’s making me do it.
I also know how incredibly different it was when he was traveling and gone all week and when he’s home every day. It’s monumentally HUGE the difference that makes. Yet, back when he was gone all the time I would have *sworn* we had it then, too.
I think you just don’t know until you actually experience the difference.
Besides, there is no Eden, there is no castle to hole up in and do what it is that we do to the extent that we want to do it. We’re not independently wealthy or living in some lawless country where we can do whatever we want. We’re all already limited in many ways merely by society itself. And every limitation you add to that makes it that much harder.
So when is it so limited as to be non-existent? Ever? Never? Does nobody recognize the limits simply because they *feel* dedicated to it?
Fact is, I’m an opinionated bitch really. Which has served me well today. I haven’t thought about the tack bra for an hour!
~cunt
Tags: M/s rambles, opinions
Uncategorized | kaya | 
Thursday January 17th, 2008 12:54pm
Babbles part 2.
Kaya, so you are, but we love you.
*Smiles*
Warm hugs,
Paul.
An opinionated bitch?! :-O No not our kaya! Nope. Nope. Nope. Thanks for the food for thought.
Yes.
Yes.
And yes.
Couldn’t have said it better myself!
Life, can’t live with it, can’t live without it…lol.
k
Some of what you are referring to reminds me of the Stockholm Syndrome.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome
Yes. Absolutely. I’ve likened it to the Stockholm Syndrome before.
Kaya,
I think you’ve hit on some excellent points here. There was a study a while back where they were testing the strength of peer pressure. Ten people would be in a room and shown a simple math problem. Nine people were plants, instructed to agree on a wrong answer and not budge. In the vast majority of cases, the lone wolf wold change his answer to go with the others. BUT, when there were two loners and eight plants, the two almost never buckled in. That reinforcement of what was known to be true. That’s why brainwashing is done individually, if two were together, they could reinforce each other and fight it.
It’s no wonder that constantly being exposed to societal norms would interfere with one’s journey to internalization. I even explored this idea in one of my recent stories. Knowing that you are fighting this is the first step in overcoming, or at least surviving it. Revel in the level of internaliztion you do have and enoy the moments when it can deepen, even if only temporarily. Of course, you’ve already figured that out.
Dave
“That’s why brainwashing is done individually, if two were together, they could reinforce each other and fight it.”
Exactly! And society itself fights it, even if you yourself try and fight back. It just makes it harder, and at some point “harder” becomes “impossible”.
Lacking the isolation needed for an intense manipulation is part of the limitation of having kids in the house. But I wonder if a more important cause of the limitation is the obligation to the kids. In this view the limitation is the same as is always encountered when one attempts to serve two masters, and those two are not in agreement of what is wanted/needed from you.
thanks. i’ve been following that post on TSR pretty closely, and it’s been on my mind constantly. it’s one of the reasons i read your blog, actually, since it’s a small insight into how all those pieces might work together.
If this comment is not welcome here feel free to delete it.
I have heard many people talk about internalizing slavery… and maybe I should go look at TSR (though I just never found that much that interested me last time I was there). Anyhow I just have to wonder what internalization means to you… what more is it that you hope to achieve? I’ve read IE, and the basic definition of internal enslavement that I have read… is that you embrace your slavery to the point where the thought of being anything other than a slave is incomprehensible.
Well a few months ago I was confronted by the idea of taking off my collar and I realized that I would rather die than no longer be his slave… and yet I know my dedication and surrender to his will has greatly deepened since that time. So was I internally enslaved then? am I now? If I’m not where is the line to cross and say “Ok, this is internal now”? I mean, to you what does internal enslavement look like?
“Does nobody recognize the limits simply because they *feel* dedicated to it?”
Are 2 people who are married but their work schedules keep them apart so they see each other 2 days a week… less married and less in love then those that see each other every day? Well to an extent, yes I’m sure they miss out on that closeness and connection, and I’m sure it would be hard for their love and relationship to deepen when they barely have time to make conversation. But they are still married and want to make the best of things. I guess I’m trying to say it might be one of those glass-half-full things. People become a slave because it makes them feel good, and it doesn’t make you feel good to look at the limitations that there are on it, it feels better to appreciate the level of slavery you have right now, and take joy in what deepening you do get.
“but I think what is more likely to happen is that the pair of them will think they are doing it, up until a time comes when each of those interferences start to disappear and they get the perspective of comparison and realize they weren’t.”
I don’t know that there is a finite level of how deep enslavement can go, and I don’t believe that any level of enslavement is more or less valid than the others… so there is no “it”… just levels if intensity I think. So I don’t think the couple is deluded and “just thinking they are doing it”… they are doing “it”, and when those interferences disappear, then they can go deeper and more intense, and do it better. Like running with ankle weights, and then taking the ankle weights off and running some more. For sure you can run faster and easier without the ankle weights, but that doesn’t make what you were doing before not-running.
“So when is it so limited as to be non-existent?”
When do the ankle-weights pile on so much you are crawling to a stop? I would assume that is when you no longer feel like a slave at all, I know some that have been there and decided to give it up because at that point it was just fake. It does happen.
—–
I do understand your having to mourn the loss though, truly I do. 10 months ago my owner was out of work for several months, and with him not working there was a very different level of intensity to our interactions. Losing that intensity of interactions after he went back to work was hard, and I feel for you on that.
Best wishes
Of course your comment is welcome here. I have no issue with people who disagree with me.
I think part of the problem with communicating this is that people do start to think of it as “less” or “more”. More of a slave or less of a slave based on some mythical standard. But that’s not what I see or how I think it.
A married couple who sees each other every day is no *more* married than a couple who travel away from each other frequently. A prisoner doing time for a drug bust is no *less* of a prisoner than one who is doing life for murder. It’s not a matter of less or more at all.
But there are certainly undeniable limitations on things if that married couple IS kept apart on a frequent basis. And it would be ludicrous if they insisted that their relationship wasn’t limited, in comparison to another couple who sees each other all day, every day, wouldn’t it?
That’s not to imply that they love each other “less” or that the other couple is more “deeply” in love. It’s simply a matter of acknowledging that one circumstance has limitations, and one does not(or has less). It’s disingenuous to say otherwise.
And it raises the question of, at what point in a marriage does it become nothing more than a farce, or a meaningless title? A couple can be married, but have been separated for years, involved in other relationships and have not seen or spoken to each other in ages. They may still be married, but can I then say that I am in a “deeper” relationship than they are because I see my husband every day? How does that make me less focused on my own positives to acknowledge another’s, or my own, limitations?
It’s not necessarily an insult to point out the obvious.
“I just have to wonder what internalization means to you?”
Honestly, I don’t think I can accurately answer that question because I know I’m not there yet. At best I have vague ideas of what I think it will be should I ever get there. I do think that getting to the point of preferring death over no longer being his is a great start (been there myself). But I’m not convinced, or unconvinced, that that’s “it”.
Maybe there is no “it”, maybe this is “it”, but I see no harm in living in this moment as fully as I can, and do, while also greatly desiring what may happen in the future.
It’s the fact that you’re an opinionated bitch that makes me treasure the things you say.
And for the record, I don’t care how it happens but someday you are going to meet Penguin. We just have to figure out how.
I guess I just look at things differently than you do. I don’t see it as Him deferring control because He always makes it clear that He continues to hold the right to take away whatever He’s given me or change His mind on any order or rule He’s laid down. And maybe it helps a bit that I really don’t want my damn job in the first place. *shrug*
And I’m in too much pain to give a fuck anymore. Nothing like having long reminders of what it is I really need to be focusing on.
It’s not like what I think *matters* anyway, to anyone. *shrug*
Thanks for clarifying a bit. Internalizing, from what i gather, is your mind being completely enslaved as well as your body? As in you can not function without direction? Or are we talking about complete devotion with out emotion? i know i’m a pain in the ass, but that’s why you keep me around right? (better than a tack bra though aren’t i? *snicker*)i suppose definition is a method of semantics. Societally, i don’t think complete internal enslavement is a possibilty, there’s too many outside influences (granted most of them can be removed at the Master’s will)not including work, kids and the like. Hmmmm…which leads me to ask the question, can an opinionated bitch ever achieve complete internal enslavement? *snicker*
~His bits
“Societally, i don’t think complete internal enslavement is a possibilty, there’s too many outside influences (granted most of them can be removed at the Master’s will)not including work, kids and the like.”
But that’s kind of the point, those outside infuences. Imagine if there weren’t *any* at all. None. No family, no job, no nothing. If one just ceased to exist in the outside world and existed solely and entirely at the whim and direction of the Master.
I absolutely think it can be done. It will be done here, someday. That’s always been our plan. But it can’t be done YET, because I have obligations right now. And those obligations make delving that deeply into the psychology of it impossible. Which has been my point all along.
Do I think it will be an emotionless thing? No. I don’t know how emotions will be expressed, or how they will be felt but I don’t expect zero emotions.
It’s not just choosing to leave that alternate reality for slavery, but in accepting that there IS NO alternate reality. Anything other than what your new reality is doesn’t even exist as a thinkable option.
It’s, obviously, hard to explain.
“can an opinionated bitch ever achieve complete internal enslavement?”
In all seriousness? No. Never. It’s exactly my exposure to ideas and theories and forming my own opinion that is one of those “interefering limitations” I was speaking of. But, for now, I have to maintain this. I have to communicate with the kids, with the kids teachers, with parents of friends, with the gorcery store clerk, with my potential new boss… and all of that necessitates that I continue to have the ability to think for myself, make decisions and exist normally in society. Therefore, as long as I am doing that, internalizing slavery to the degree that I want to is completely and utterly impossible.
Clear as mud, no?
No independent thought…Sort of the fishbowl theory? Except the fishbowl is concrete and you can’t see the outside forces? What about in home luxuries? Television? Radio? Newspapers? Magazines? (all removable, but still existant) And man are there days where i wish i could just tune out the outside world. i think it would be an incredible feat to achieve the level of internal slavement (i’m gathering that) you’re communicating here. The amazing trust and devotion involved with that would be unparalelled!
I think this topic is really cool to explore.
~His bits
Imagine time spent entirely in a cage or box with no exposure to those magazines or tv shows, except and only if, the Master allows you exposure to a certain thing. Imagine the narrowing of your mind down to the one and only source that you are allowed; Him. He becomes the entire center of your dwindled universe. There is nothing else. What goes on outside the walls of your tiny world ceases to exist in any capacity that matters.
It’s a shift in reality, a big huge gigantic shift, that is not possible when certain circumstances interfere.
lol.. I cannot clarify YOU when I can’t clarify myself! Silly.
i think the tacks are getting to you *giggles*
In all honesty, that’s totally exciting to me. Existing only for Him…In every capacity, Mind Body and Soul (which we all talk about) not knowing anything different.
i think the hardest part of what we’re discussing here would be the “de-programming” of all the previous knowledge.
As you’ve said somewhere in the sea of comments and posts, institutionalizing takes years…many many years. So in your case, slavery:walker style? *giggles* ok that was mean *giggles* but waiting until the kids are out of the house to “begin” would make a long process carry into the golden years. So are there ways you can begin internalizing while you have all the outside forces working to keep you drawn out?
~His bits
I absolutely think it can be done. It will be done here, someday. That’s always been our plan. But it can’t be done YET, because I have obligations right now. And those obligations make delving that deeply into the psychology of it impossible. Which has been my point all along.
Ahh, man… i hate to be the wet blanket here, but as someone with grown-ass children who believes that you’re a good mom – that obligation continues WAY after they hit 18 and move out of your house.
i think what you’re talking about could be possible for someone who never had children or who was willing to abandon all her family (as well as all her friends), children included.
True. That’s why we’re moving, far far away as soon as they all learn independence.
Honestly though, that is something that is there. What to do about it, if anything. If it’s even possible. It may be that it’ll never be complete and only “close enough” because of the kids. But we also think there are things that can be done to minimize the interference they can have, simple things actually. It’s all just a wait and see, play it by ear, plan at this point because there is no way to know until it’s happened, you know?
Yep. i toooootally understand.
We had been really looking forward to a teen-less weekend, and then here comes Lindsey with her HUGE baby blues, asking “mama, can I please come up this weekend to visit you and maybe bring a couple of friends?”
She even offered to bring up groceries with her! *sniffles* Not even Sir could say “no” to her very polite and sweet request. She’s a good girl and i love her, but those are the kinds of things that keep us from delving deeper.
i wish i had some answer.
Excellent! You did a great job explaining that. You put into words something i’ve spent a lot of time noodling around. i’ve struggled for more than two years now (hmm.. Eli just turned two – imagine that!) with internalizing my slavery. It’s been HARD, where it used to be so EASY. i’d started to feel pretty bitter about the entire concept, and i’ve been trying new ways to get back that old feeling. i’m having some success, too!
i agree with you on all points.
i’m pretty messy about labels in general. i use them, but they aren’t so clearly defined in my mind anymore.
i’m going to think (and think, and think) some more about this. Thank you.
While you’re thinking, would you wander around in my mind and clarify my thoughts to? Everything is a muddle of information in there! *snicker*
~His bits
Hee! This topic is too huge for my lil brain to noodle out completely. i’ve been thinking about it for more than four years now, and as my life changes… so do my opinions change. Heh.
Besides, i’ve never noticed a muddle in there. *smooch*
Me too! My opinion changes on a daily basis I think.
It’s back there in the corner to the right, i hear it thumping against my skull! The double sided tape must have given out. *snicker*
This is a huge topic…and i’m having a fantastic time exercising (what little) mind (i have left) with these thoughts.
~His bits