Addendum
(We’ve been busy. And sick. And more busy and more sick. I apologize for dropping the ball.)
A lot of the previous comments revolved around a sort of well-trained, autopilot kind of submission. Which, while something that I do want to talk about, is far, far from what I was getting at in that last post.
It started, I suppose, with this one random comment I read on Fet:
“I’d use my safeword and refuse.”
I’m not interested in a discussion over safewords really. That comment was not in response to a discussion over pain play or how to tell your Top that your hands are numb. It was a generic question about submission and the reply was that she would refuse.
She has an out. A trump card. She holds the power.
It just spiraled from there. You know how you buy a car and all of sudden every other car you see is the exact make, model and color of your car? Yeah, so, after seeing that comment I started seeing similar comments everywhere.
“I won’t swallow because I don’t like the taste.”
Okay. Fine. You don’t like it. It doesn’t even *matter*, at this point, if the Dom in question *cares* if you swallow or not. The words speak for themselves.
“I won’t [fill in the blank here] I don’t like it.”
“Any Dom worth their salt would respect me enough to never ask me to [do anything I don't like to do].”
“He’d either come to understand why I couldn’t perform this task . . . or it’d be a deal breaker.”
“Simply put.. I would not do it. End of disscusion.”
It’s that sort of blanket refusal to even the most basic dominance that I simply can’t wrap my head around.
It’s not that I think everyone should submit just like I do. Or that if they aren’t then they are “doing it wrong!” I just don’t think they are doing it at all, right or wrong, when they retain the power to pick and choose what they submit to.
WHERE is there submission AT ALL when the submissive is the one deciding what they will or will not submit to, and the dominant one appears to be the one kowtowing to her? There is none. That’s where.
I know this is coming off as elite.
I don’t care.
So I’m an elitist. ~shrug~
I’ve been called worse.
~cunt
ps. With a name like cunt, would you expect me to act any other way? ;-)
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Uncategorized | kaya | 
Monday September 21st, 2009 6:38am
This attitude of yours is obviously why your head and arms and junk keep getting falled off. If you would just like, I don’t know, say “Stop Falling my parts off or I’m getting the fuck out”, you would have all your part.
But seriously. Saying “no” or “I refuse” really only works if your owner gives you the authority to do that or puts authority or power or weight behind the words that come out of your mouth. A safeword doesn’t make someone stop unless they recognize the authority and power of the person saying it. Otherwise, it falls on deaf ears. I could safeword till I’m blue in the face, but The Norseman doesn’t stop until he wants to. Period. I could say “I’m not gonna do that”, but I can tell you from experience, it’s really not a good idea. It’s more of a “we can do this the easy way or the hard way” situation. Time and experience has shown me the wisdom of taking “the easy way, aka, His Way..” The only exceptions really are my physical health. And again, he makes that decision by assessing my condition. I don’t just get to say “I don’t feel like doing that today..”
I don’t think you’re being elitist at all, kaya. But I do think you’re only talking about one half of this situation. It’s not just that the slaves/subs aren’t submitting. It’s also that a lot of dominants are sadly so desperate for a submissive or a slave that they are willing to “negotiate” and “save word” themselves right into the position of being the submissives in their relationships.
Also, dominants and Masters who have this whole chivalrous knight thing going on where the sub is a precious precious poesy petal who first must be rescued and then must be protected and given in to on a whim to the point that he’s the one begging, asking, pleading, and avoiding safewords like mines on a minefield? Yeah, I’ve seen a lot of that, too.
It’s something to think about.
Kitten
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Sooo… it’s not submissives who don’t submit, it’s doms who don’t dominate.
I was leaning that way on Fet actually. I think you’re right.
Master says that some dominants may actually be “afraid” to dominate because the woman basically only has to run off and say “He hit me” or “I’ve been abused” to the police or a public authority and the guy is facing a lifetime of bullshit as a result.
He also says that LOTS of women like the IDEA of being slaves without limits and romanticize the notion and then when they get exactly what they’re asking for, they don’t know what to do with and don’t want it anymore and want to get out while saving face so rather than “I suck as a submissive”, they say “He tried to make me do this one thing that was against my morals, principles, made my asshole itch, made my mother disown me” blah blah whatever.
Then they get sympathy from their enablers in these groups and communities who far outnumber those of us saying “well, she kinda had it coming..” or “she didn’t do what she signed on for”.
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I am thinking I agree with you…how is that for being a chicken :) Seriously, we don’t have a safe word but I am lucky that he generally doesn’t make me do too much that I don’t like. Oh, I don’t really like swallowing either, but I do it because he says so and I like the act of doing it even though I don’t like it…so there is that.
I am one though that does have some limits, thank goodness my limits are also his at the moment…don’t know what the heck I will do when/if that changes…
tc
OK, well, I was probably clear enough before but I feel like I wasn’t, so I’ll clarify needlessly. ;) I think in a situation that lacks any submitting, there can still be submission – in a sense. There are people who merely want the sense of being submissive in nature; of having this or that aspect of themselves controlled, but not these or those other aspects; or who only want to feel submissive, without actually being submissive (i.e. submitting). There are also probably doms who want the feeling of dominance without the responsibility and fears of actually dominating; for them, these submissives that will put their foot down (so to speak) are probably a great match. They can do their thing within an established framework.
In short, I’m not sure that what you’re describing seeing on fetlife is at all unusual – among non-lifestylers. If any of these posters are claiming to be 24/7, well… no, obviously, that’s incorrect. Otherwise, it sounds to me like they’re part of a very widespread way of enjoying D/S on a less committed scale.
“people who merely want the sense of being submissive in nature”
I suppose.
You know what it’s like though? People who want the sense of being parents so they babysit someone else’s kid for a night and then join parenting forums to discuss the ins and outs of parenting.
HA! Welcome to the world of Internet submission. The responses you received were on the money. These womean are in love with the idea of calling themselves submissives and the men want to be the “Dom”. NOT!
well ya know me kaya and ya know where i stand…. i don’t play at this lifestyle and i don’t have much tolerance for those that do……… and i don’t know.. unless it is a major health issue then ya just suck it up and do it !!
shrug.. but that’s just me…
Hell i am trudging after Sir to all these 78th Fraser Highlander bashes and they’re vanilla for god’s sakes!!! do i say.. ‘nah i don’t think i will go to this one.. the last one was just too boring??’ Hell no.. i suck it up and go… cause that’s what i signed on for… 24/7 anything and everything..
Hell i have even been named the next “milady” of the garrison.. (gag me PLEASE!!) and i smiled and said how pleased i was.. and i would make Sir proud..
cause ya know what?? it isn’t all about blow jobs and fucking and whipping..sometimes it is about the mundane every day things.. His hobbies.. His likes … not mine..
shrug.. but that’s just my opinion..
morningstar (owned by Warren)
And thats why I like you so much. :D
Maybe it comes down to simpler / more basic question:
Does submission come in degrees or is it an “all or nothing” “black or white” kind of commitment?
I’m still not sure where I stand on it to be perfectly honest. I think ‘Garden Fence’ and the ‘sense of being submissive/dominant in nature’ theory explains the nature of the people you’re encountering though.
Interesting notion to mull over for sure though.
This is what I was thinking, the “degrees” aspect.
Does a submissive just hand her life over to a Dom all at once? Don’t we, as submissives, warn the newest among us about predator “Doms” and the risks involved in giving too much too soon to someone they don’t really know? Sure, if you’ve been in a 24/7 relationship for years with someone, I can see where you might loose sight of the steps you took to get to the place where you are now, kaya, and see these “subs” as “posuers”, but situations change over time, and these same relationships where these subs will “safeword” out of might evolve into a state where they won’t. They just aren’t there yet.
Having said that, I had a safeword with Daddy, but I never used it. And I don’t think I would have denied him anything, tho I believe our interests coincided so well that he wasn’t interested in anything I would have any real problem with.
>shrug<
I’m right on board with the degrees or graduated steps of submission.
I just don’t think this particular discussion falls into it.
I also can’t entirely explain why I think that.
Some of these people have been in their relationships for years and years. Their safeword comes in play when DomTom asks for a glass of water and they are in the middle of watching House.
I can’t find that to be a degree of submission. It’s an agreement to submit when she damn well feels like it- and that’s just not submission at all.
“In short, I’m not sure that what you’re describing seeing on fetlife is at all unusual – among non-lifestylers. If any of these posters are claiming to be 24/7, well… no, obviously, that’s incorrect. Otherwise, it sounds to me like they’re part of a very widespread way of enjoying D/S on a less committed scale.”
This is pretty much how I feel about it. There are some couples who are not 24/7 in which there is a power exchange, not a total control, as evidenced by a safeword. This isn’t bad, it’s just a lesser degree than living the full lifestyle all the time.
I think that if someone is using a safeword to avoid discomfort, however, that’s kind of an incorrect use of a safeword as I understand it, in which case I would say the couple is not very heavily into D/s play/lifestyle. The safeword is supposed to be something you would only use at a hard limit, or if you were genuinely afraid for your life/health. I have a tough time believing that swallowing is anybody’s hard limit, but I am also kinkier than most of my friends…
The safeword is used to avoid submission- not just to avoid being uncomfortable.
At some point, in my opinion, “not being heavily into D/s” turns into not being D/s at all. Yanno?
Well. :(
Then I guess in your eyes I’m not submissive. Because I would refuse if Dan asked me to do certain things. For instance, I won’t do scat, I won’t. If he suddenly wanted to push me in that direction, I wouldn’t do it. I wanna throw up at the idea of it.
It would be a deal breaker. (Plus I’d think he’d lost his damn mind)
I’ve done many things he’s wanted that I didn’t like. Anal, for instance. I hated it, always hated it, I have some damage in that area from a long time ago, both psychological and physical. But I tried and tried and burst myself for him. But I always hated it and he knew that. And finally he took it off the table, it’s not to be brought up or even discussed anymore and I’m glad of it. I hated everything about it. So I know what it’s like to do something you don’t like. I gag when I swallow, too, every time, but I still do it. So you know..I do know.
But I do have limits. So I guess I’m not submissive, then.
Just pretending to be one?
Is there nothing that is a deal breaker for you? Weren’t you going to leave Scott over Jes getting pregnant and how he wanted to handle that? I know you guys resolved it but at first you withdrew your slave status and you had prepared to leave with the kids over it.
I dunno, kiddo. I don’t agree with you on this one and I usually do agree with your philosophy. Either I’m misunderstanding what you are saying or we’ll just have to shake hands and agree to disagree. :)
Because I am submissive despite having limits. I don’t need someone else to tell me that; he tells me that and I have no doubt I am; I know I am. :)
What she said. I don’t believe you have to give up your life entire in submission to someone in order to be submissive.
I understand what you mean about “if you’re not doing anything you don’t want to do, where’s the submission” but there’s a lot of grey in between your black and white.
(This coming from someone who has never had an internet relationship, much less one that involved power dynamics. My D/s has all been in the flesh, over the past twenty-five years now. I am just not 24/7.)
(Then again, I’m a switch, so we all know my opinion doesn’t count. *grin*)
“I don’t believe you have to give up your life entire in submission to someone in order to be submissive.”
I don’t either. But I do think it has to be something more than “Nah. Get your own drink. I’m tired. RED!”
Not arguing with you there. See again my comment about black and white. I agree that there are many things that are not, in fact, submission. *grin*
That said, I have safeworded out of even basic submission before. Not because I was tired, but because I was fragile enough at that moment that I did not trust my spouse to handle me without an emotional catastrophe. And in that moment, I was, in fact, not being submissive.
Actually, I personally don’t think kaya is saying “You can’t have limits” or “If you have limits you’re not submissive”, but rather “If you get to choose, and that’s not an outspoken right your Dominant gives you, then that’s not complete power exchange.”
For example, and I’ve used this before, if my Owner one day simply said “Hey, lets break the neck of one of the cats and have it for supper”, there would be one hell of a row. I’d think he’d lost his mind and my trust in him would decidedly waver. But, if he’d spent months bending my mind and plucking in my thinking, then finally “gotten to the point” of us killing a cat and having it for supper… Yes, hell, I’ll admit I’d do it. He’s good at changing me.
I think the same applies for scat, for you. Now, you’ve got no interest in scat and neither does Dan. But he did have an interest in anal, and you did do it when he wanted to, right? Then it turned out that that experience wasn’t better, it wasn’t good for you and you couldn’t get past whatever mental and physical issues you have, so he dropped it. That’s not you having a say, in my mind, that’s him choosing to not do something that seems to have been very traumatic to you.
Do you see the differance?
I’m my Owner’s to do what he wishes with, but he does need to do it in a way that isn’t out of the blue and doesn’t break my trust in him. That doesn’t of course mean that I’m the one putting that requirement out there, it’s just something that IS. Push me far enough and I’ll break, and I wont trust him to make my choises anymore, to mould my mind and personality. He could decidedly do it anyway, which is why that pesky “choosing the right person”-issue is so stressed. He *could* disregard anything I’ve got to say or think or feel. That’d be totally up to him. Actually, that IS totally up to him. If that’s what he’d like to do, then that’s what he’ll do, and I’ve no say.
But. And there’s a huge but. If he wants to be loved and adored and worshipped and trusted, then that’s not the way to go.
Here’s the distinction for me. He can say “I want a totally vanilla life” and I’ll do it. ‘cuz that’s what he wants. He’ll say “I give you the right to [insert something here]” and then that’s my right, given by him to me. That’s M/s.
If I say “You can’t have acess to [insert thing here]“, then that’s ME saying it, putting a limit on it. That’s D/s. The submission isn’t complete, utter, etc. Nothing wrong with that.
… and that just goes back to the choosing-the-right-person-stuff. Before becoming a slave, that’s when you get to choose the right person. Afterwards, you’re pretty much stuck in what he wants.
Personally, I’d like a life quite different from the one I have. But HE wants a ‘nilla life, HE wants me to do a number of things that’d seem rude or disrespectful to others (like telling him “The hell, are you stupid or something?!” when I disagree strongly). *I* want something different, but *I’m* the one submitting. See?
Uh. *totally feels confused by own argument* Yeah. Somethin’ like that. You with me?
I’m with you, sweetheart.
:)
I think you’re reading too much into what I’m saying.
I’m not talking about limits or deal breakers, necessarily.
Although, since you brought it up, at the point that I would have chosen to leave Master over his handling of Jes, I’d have ceased submitting and stopped being a slave. I think I even said that in one of those early posts. Something along the lines of “if I can’t submit to his wishes, then I’m not a submissive”. Something like that anyway.
But if what you’re telling me is that you only submit to fetching his glass of water when you damn well feel like it- well. Then let’s shake and hands and disagree..lol
Because I’m not talking about scat or eating dead babies or pushing grandma down the stairs. I’m talking about retaining the power to submit based on your mood that day.
I have never gotten the impression it works that way for you guys, not in all the time I’ve been reading your blog- wherever it went.
I took the blog down because I made the mistake twice of leaving a comment somewhere as Amber when I shouldn’t have. I fixed it quickly enough but…scary. Too many family members are connected via the net these days. Facebook, personal blogs, my company’s Facebook, which I handle, etc. I got too freaked out someone would find it and I just don’t want to go through all the brou-ha-ha it would create. Plus I know of at least three people who got busted by family or their job just this last year. And I know it’s because the internet is just getting smaller. Back in 2003 when I started, nobody I knew in person knew what a blog was. Now they all have one, even Lily has one, lol! Dan’s cousin’s *dog* is on Facebook, lol!
I chickened out. *shrugs*
That’s why I’m leaving long-assed comments everywhere again, hahaha. I haz no outlet for my s. *sighs*
OH! And I’m sorry you were all sick; Dan was sick over the weekend and the kids were sick the week before. I’m waiting for the Flu Ax to fall on me, now.
Glad you’re all better. Now I have to hustle my non-submissive ass out the door since the Hubs is after me to get off the computer and go out to breakfast with him. ‘Course I snuck back in here to leave this comment; just more proof I’m not really submissive, just pretending. ;P heheheh
Ugh. Worse cold ever.
I’m feeling lots better today, but Master is down for the count. Hopefully we can keep Babygirl from getting it. :(
Our Lily hasn’t gotten the flu yet and it’s run through everyone else (except me). I hear babies this young rarely get the flu so I’m betting BabyGirl won’t get it either.
That’s alright. I don’t mind not calling myself submissive, I’m fine with other words to describe myself. I like to have a somewhat submissive role in my primary relationship, but I wouldn’t consider myself ‘owned’ or ‘property’ in any way, shape or form. I’m very much my own person and I most definitely have limits. I love following my Dom in most decisions he makes, he has a sort of general ‘leader’ role in our relationship. But there are thousands, millions of things he cannot ask of me. We are both happy with this and enjoy our relationship very much.
I guess I could call myself bottom. Or half-sub. Or kinkster. There are thousands of websites on the internet that explain all the different words we can use to describe all the different BDSM relationship one can have. Personally, I find it tiring. Sub, slave, owned, bottom, masochist.. Pff. I pretty much call all the people that are on the submissive side of the scale ‘sub’, whether that means they like to be spanked or whether they like to have no limits and own nothing and be nothing but a pet to their owners. And I call everyone on the dominant side of the scale ‘Dom’, whether they like to tie people up and whip them, or have a person be under their full control in every aspect of their lives. BDSM is too complex to put into little boxes and categories, I think. I’ll call people what they want to be called, one of my friends calls herself a slave and that’s fine by me. But I just can’t really be bothered with the whole name-game.
I know what I am. I like SM. I like dominance&submission in somewhat mild forms. My Dom can decide where we live, he cannot decide what university I go to. He can decide what I eat, he cannot decide who my friends are. I’m not a real, full, all the way to da max slave. I’m absolutely fine with that!
And you should be fine with that. Me? I kinda like language and labels and being on the same page with the people I’m talking to.
So what would you call me? What word do you use for people who definitely have some D/s in their relationship, have some leader/follower role, but don’t do the ownership/property/whoaslave :P thing?
For me, submission is not about convenience. I want my limits tested. I want to be molded into the perfect slave for Him. I knew full well it was going to me hard at times and I would have to do things I may not like. Where did east come in to play?
Good post :)
I always wondered what “Power Exchange” meant. There really didn’t seem to be an “exchange”. One gives up power, the other takes it. What is “exchanged”?
But it really is a relationship. I push dark eyes. She balks. I pull back. But I note where she balked.
Then I’ll tease her about it. Lightly threaten her with it. Play at it a little bit.
At some point, she’s ready for it and she does it, and I get my way.
I think any Dom that knows what he’s doing knows he can do This but she’s not ready for That (as a couple of people have already pointed out). But you work with it; it’s a relationship.
Some relationships aren’t as advanced as others. Some will never be all that advanced. It’s all up to the folks involved.
My two cents.
mmmmm … do you sometimes get the idea that people confuse submission with kinky sex? i.e. “He tied me up and spanked my ass, and rammed his cock into my dry cunt, telling me all the time i was his slut, his whore, he owned me, until i came so hard i passed out, i love each minute of it, but if you think i am going to swallow his cum? yuck no…are you out of your fucking mind?” it is easier to have kinky sex and call it what you want so you can be part of what ever scene. Very few people, including myself, would I say are truly in a Top/Bottom 24 hour, 7 day a week submission lifestyle, which is why i so so so enjoy reading your blog. We all float in and out of the Dominant position in life thru the day…at work you may in fact be called upon to be a Domme/Dom – and then you have to shift gears at home to be a submissive..some people can transition that well, some cannot. Hats off to you .. you have been brutally honest with your experience, and I’m sure that you have done your fair share of things that you thought ..oh fuck i hate this, i mean i really, really hate this..but you did for him…no safety net. You have had your struggles and shared them, and thru it all i would say you have been true to your calling.
Not sure where this is/was going..but opinions are like assholes..we all have ‘em.
I agree with a lot of this. I also think there’s a difference between submitting and being owned property. In most schools of though, submissives are expected to control their relationships to whatever degree the sub and dom decide upon. Women who are chattel, owned property, etc are expected to give up control in ever part of their lives as part of the dynamic.
People who have kinky sex and aren’t part of the “lifestyle” aspect of what’s going on. It’s like the difference between the guy who goes on his fishing boat once or twice a year and the dudes on deadliest catch. Both of them catch fish, but one fishes solely because it brings him pleasure. The other fishes because he’s a fisherman.
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Call me crazy but I’m betting if the guy who fishes once or twice a year tried to claim he was just as much of a fisherman as the Deadliest Catch guys, they’d laugh him off the boat.
And be damn justified in doing so.
Exactly,
And that’s why people like yourself, and me, and some others don’t really “get” or WANT to get the slaves and submissives who play at it or do it only because and when it feels good.
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Hrm.
I guess…
Well, I dunno…
If Antonio says, “You don’t have to do anything that makes you feel like you’re going to have a panic attack while peeing yourself,” and a situation arose where that happened and I was all, “Holy Hell, Red Alert! Panic attack + peeing is COMING!” and he let me stop?
Yeah. Whatever. I’m still submitting. He SAID he wanted me to be able to stop. I did what he said. He called the shots on that one, he gave me the out. He gives me permission to do a lot of things. I’m always fine with it, because he gave me the say-so. *shrug*
I also have a safeword. But… It doesn’t work like most people’s safewords appear to. He’s said he wants me to use if if I feel there is something I HAVE to communicate with him that I’m unable to in the middle of something (or that he’s not listening to at the time, in ass-kicking-dom-mode)… Then he gets to decide the course of action which might be to stop, and it might be “Oh, really? Too bad.” So I guess my “safeword” isn’t really for my benefit. It’s for his – he loves to have knowledge at his disposal. Maybe we should call it something else… Hrm…
I guess unless a Dom/Master/Whatever has given approval to the sub/slave/whatever to put a stop to certain activities… Then it just isn’t 24/7 or TPE. It’s something else. Can it still be called submission? Is that why there is PE and TPE? Because one is NOT total, so it’s still fine to call it power exchange? I dunno. Whenever I try to play semantic games like that, I lose. I dunno if it’s worth it to try.
(Though it does bother me when people who have those “I won’t ’cause I don’t WANNA!” stipulations in their relationship call it slavery. I mean, c’mon.)
~Chloe
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“Though it does bother me when people who have those “I won’t ’cause I don’t WANNA!” stipulations in their relationship call it slavery”
It bothers me when they call it submission.
Cuz it ain’t.
The End.
*beams*
Ya know, I am in agreement with kaya and morningstar on this, you submit, not you get to cherrypick what you submit to. but it all comes down to the couple and what they decide to do. My slave is just that, a slave, and what I say goes, my wants, my desires come first. Now will I ask her to do something I don’t like? No. Scat? No thank you very much. If that is your thing, fine have fun, but I’m not doing it. Part of this life to me, is at the beginning you both come clean and be honest with each other. This is what I want you to sign up for, this is want I aim for and expect. Can you do that? Good. If not, we may not be right for each other. If I decide to take my slave’s ass, she really has only one choice and that is to hand me the lube and hope I use it. Now if she is sick, or there is some other item that is in the way, yes I will respect that, mostly. Bu she is my property and I use my property the way I want. This is what she agreed to, and what she needs. No hard limits unless I set them. any thing else just might be a deal breaker…..The Prof
I knew someone would agree with me! :D
I never realized it was so complicated. I chose to submit. Definition “to yeild to authority”. Simple. If NDG says do “this” then i do “this”. If i don’t then I am not submitting. True, people have limits, hell i have them. No animals. I won’t have sex with animals. Does that make me less a submissive? Maybe to some. But the key is, I have a dom who also does not want me to have sex with animals. I believe there has to be at least a small amount of compatibility between the two people.
What I don’t get is those who won’t be the simple stuff like swallow or bathe regularly or clean his house. If you only want to play and only by your rules, go to alt.com and find a kinky booty call.
There are times when I don’t want to clean His bedroom or bathroom. I can choose not to but there are consequences. His consequences. I agreed to submit to His way so His way it is.
Simple really.
Exactly.
I, like some of the others who’ve commented, tend to believe there’s a gradient to submission. Although that just is how *I* experience it. I am a switch but I am generally more attracted to dominant individuals and so I tend to fall on the submissive side more often. My current partner is very much a top. I also am a touch masochistic. But both the submission and masochism only play a part in my sex life. Maybe as simplyfem mentioned, I am confusing submission with kinky sex… I don’t know. I’ve had kinky sex that didn’t involve submission although it did involve whips and chains and rough sex because all involved knew what we wanted out of the scene but no one was about to put a toe outside anyone else’s boundary. Then I’ve had sex where I do “submit” and within that sub-space for that time period, I do put myself aside and while there, I like my boundaries pushed. But when all is said and done I do know where my limit is and there are certain things that I won’t do. I am of the belief that within what I’ve described I am NOT entitled to the label “slave” but I can still call myself submissive.
I have tried “life-styling” for limited time periods; usually during vacations here and there but while I’ve had fun, it would not work for me long term. I have a mean type A streak and can be incredibly dominant in life and the idea of submitting to anyone for a long period of time would not make me happy. So I may technically not be a submissive because my submission has a time-stamp on it… and I certainly do admire slave/master relationships because they are special in their level of commitment… but I still call what I do submission, maybe for lack of a better word. Any suggestions on alternate terms?
[rq=686026,0,blog][/rq]Breast augmentation
Holy Christ, there is another Chloe…
I am going to get confused. I just KNOW I am. Everyone else probably has two brain cells to rub together, and will be fine. Me, though? I will be confused. I’m half an idiot.
Anyway, hi Chloe! I have no insight for you… (I’m half and idiot, ‘member?)
~Chloe, you know, the one who signs off like she thinks speaking in third person is somehow cool…
[rq=686707,0,blog][/rq]A Whole Lot of Nothing
I know! I was all like, wtf is Chloe *talking* about??
Hee.
Wait… which one are you?
[rq=690935,0,blog][/rq]Amazing Blowjobs
Bottom.
What you’ve described, in everything I’ve come across, describes to a tee what a bottom is.
Kaya,
There’s a class we teach here called, Foundations of Mathematics. When I took that class, the professor started the quarter by welcoming us to our first math class. Keep in kind, I’d been through a full year of calculus and other math classes. He went on to explain that this class was the first class we were going to take that wasn’t just a more complicated version of arithmetic. Now we were goig to do “real” math.
Why mention math? Because all my students (they all take one of those so called non-math math classes) KNOW they’re tkaing math classes. To them, the proofs I did in Foundations of Mathematics isn’t real math (it’s hell on earth). I’ve seen soem of those comments you refer to and have the same thoughts. How can you be submitting if you never do something you don’t like. BUT, to them, it is submission. I try to hold my tongue (fingers?) because I don’t know all there is to know about there submission. maybe there are things they don’t like that they submit to but swallowing (or whatever they refuse to do) is one of their hard limits.
Remember, I encountered this lifestule at first in the context of safe words and SCC (just read my first story–written before I encountered yuo, Toy and the others). So I understand the place they’re coming from, to a degree. They have that submissive bone in them (let’s ignore the knky only ones for now). They want to let someone else control them. BUT, they have either been taught the same things I was first taught (my first interactions with other lifestylers included John Warren on the old Prodigy metwork), or they simply have fears they haven’t overcome yet. Hell, my munch group leader is a firm believer in safe words and has issues with people throwing around the term, “no limits.”
I’m not trying to dis you, Kaya, or anyone else here or anywhere else. We’re all different and I suspect that submission has as many faces as there are submissives AND dominants. I know of two people who claim you’re not a submissive–and you’re one of them! As you’ve written before that you’re a slave, not a submissive because you don’t actually have a submissive bone in your body. For me, slave and submissive have always had different, though related, meanings. One can be both, but neither requires the other. So, yes, the “I’ll never swallow” people can very well be submissive; they’re just not slaves.
I don’t know, really, I guess. These discussions always seem so facinating, yet pointless in many ways. I’ve seen you in action. You’e been right in the past, you’re not a submissive; you will fight something you don’t want to do…to a point, that piont being the place where you just disobey. These other women, they’re not slaves; they will just no obey these things (swallowing, whatever). It does seem to be human nature to be either confused by, or even miffed (?) at those who are so different than we are. After I got back from Spank, I went through a time like that about my roommates and their very vanillaness. Don’t beat yourself up over them, nor let them get to you. Like people who actually eat sour kraut, I can live with them, just as long as they don’t shove their offal down my throat. :)
Dave
S’okay. You can dis me if you feel like it. ;)
“BUT, to them, it is submission.”
And to me, it is not. Simple. :)
I will be totally honest here…I am not entirely sure what the hell I believe or think when it comes to this. I have not given it that much thought. My Sir and I have known each other since I was 12 and he was 13. We married in our mid twenties and that was almost 28 years ago. We are best friends and married long before we actually got into this lifestyle. So perhaps ours is a rather unique relationship…I’m not sure. We are not just into kinky sex, although the sex is almost always kinky and rough in some way, which is what we both like. We live the way we do 24/7/365 and have for so many years I have lost count. I never really question what I am or what he is. I gladly submit to his authority over me as that is what I want even though I am a head strong, opinionated, often stubborn, highly intelligent woman who is actually older than most all that I regularly come in contact with on blogs I read or my own blog. He is just my husband, my Sir, my Master, my Dom, my Captain, my lover, my best friend in the world. I will not say I am some sort of ‘mentor figure”, “mother figure”, or “teacher” because I am older and have possibly experienced more than many, but I do tend to mentor several people who ask me to. Usually they do because they like something in the way I think of all of this. I am not contentious or divisive, but am always trying to be very supportive and helpful as this is one of the things I am called to be by my very nature. I like to help. I told Sir long ago in the beginning of our journey in this lifestyle that I not only wanted but needed his dominance over me. I needed to sometimes be forced to do something. Several of you understand that NEED we have…so because I occasionally feel the need to be forced into doing something that he wants, and perhaps I even want as well, does it make me less than submissive? I don’t know. I cater to him and his wants and needs. I do this because I love him and want to do it. I serve him because I love him and want to. He speaks, I comply. He orders and I obey. He demands, I respond. Does he make me do something I truly do not want to do? Sometimes. Do I make a fuss? Sometimes, but I still do whatever it is. Since I have known him for so very long (known him for 41 years now!!!)I know without a doubt that he takes all things into consideration. He can and has at times been very harsh but fair and never truly abusive…he loves me too much to actually abuse and destroy me, as that would be destroying a valuable piece of property. He knows that there are things I absolutely would hate and things that if told or asked to do would “break” me and he might have a hard time fixing me again. But if told or asked to do whatever it was, I most likely would do it even though I would hate it and would probably be resentful about it. But I am blessed that he has not ordered me or made me do anything to that extent…at least not yet…probably never will. He takes my feelings, my emotional health or lack thereof, my physical health or lack thereof, and other things into consideration always. I belong to him. I am property just as other things he owns but I am also more than property. I am submissive, but I have a voice and mind and will of my own. I sometimes feel as though I am a slave, but he gives me free will also. I am a bottom, a masochist and so much more. All of the talk and dissension I hear lately has me confused. The BDSM/Kink community as a whole is full of a very wide variety of individuals. We all pride ourselves in being non-vanilla at the core of us, in our hearts. A healthy discussion such as this is good. My major concern is the arguing I hear lately over “my submission is better than your submission” shit. Why should any of us feel we must pigeonhole ourselves into some little box with the “appropriate” label? We are all so many things at once. Like many of you…I am a wife, a mom, a grandmother, a kinkster, a masochist, a bottom, a slut, a bitch, a submissive, a blogger, a photographer, a librarian, a secretary, a great cook, a crafter, a gardener, a spanko, a financial tightwad, a southerner, an American…and the list goes on and on. I cannot clearly state I am a submissive more than a slave or a slave more than a submissive. I cannot state that I ALWAYS do EXACTLY as I am told or asked to do. Do I work within the “situational” realms? Yes, maybe I do. I have not out and out told Sir that “no, I will not”…as I said, I do as I am asked or told. But the possibility is there that one day I may say NO. And if I do, does that mean that I am not longer a submissive? I don’t think so..it just means that I am what he wanted from the beginning, what he said he wanted…a spirited, intelligent woman….not a doormat without any thoughts or ideas of her own. I live to please him, always have. But he also pleases me as well. Like I said, ours is rather unique I think. Sorry if I got offtrack. I have just read so much lately of the harshness that subbies all give to each other over titles and degrees of submission when I think we would all be better served to support each other regardless of whatever you call yourself. Just my opinion for whatever it is worth.
[rq=686807,0,blog][/rq]Master Leaves Tomorrow (pics)
Just let me ask you this:
You’re sitting on the couch watching tv. Your Sir hollers in from the next room, and asks for a cup of coffee. You, his submissive, checks your mood, finds it lazy and hollers back “Red!”
You’ve safeworded out of the most basic form of submission.
This is not a one time occurence because you’re laid up on the couch with a broken leg. This is a standard method of the “submissive” choosing to submit based entirely on her mood at that moment.
To me? That is not a submissive.
Nope, that is not submission to me either. LOL. I just do as I am told. Don’t always like it, but that is ok since I knew what I signed on for.
[rq=712867,0,blog][/rq]Clouds
I just don’t get WHY this kind of discussion is of such interest to so many. Who cares how someone else does it? Who cares how someone else things it’s supposed to be? So what? Why are there so many threads on fetlife dedicated to it in the first place? And why do people leave there all fired up looking for validation from others who see it their way? SO WHAT? I just don’t get it.
Yeah, me neither. To me, it seems so natural that people would experience D/s and BDSM in different ways. And I just don’t GET why people mind so much that I do things differently. Why do they care so much? And there’s always a hint of disapprovement in those kinds of posts too, it greatly puzzles me. I just really don’t get it! I have never in my life written a posts about why those other BDSM-ers aren’t real whatevers, or if you don’t do X then you’re not a real bladiebla. It’s weird, really weird to me.
That’s an extremely childish and dishonest way to look at the world, and you know it.
It’s really not so uncommon for people to want to search out those who share commonalities, either through their life philosophies or interests or hobbies. But that’s difficult to do when people are being dishonest. And this, to me, is dishonesty.
I’m sorry, I don’t follow. What’s dishonest?
It’s just conversation. I’m not campaigning to be president of the BDSM world. I’m not writing the BDSM How-To book.
I’m discussing things that I find perplexing, interesting, or worthy of talking about.
I could come here to my bdsm-themed blog and talk about the weather (which I will do, probably very soon, because it’s getting cold again).
I could come here and talk about my kitties because, as an irresponsible pet owner I have 5 new ones.
I could come here and talk about my kids and my granddaughter- but people disapprove of that too.
Or I can come here and talk about some bdsm stuff. Between 2 blog posts, there are some 50+ comments on this very topic. Apparently, some people WANT to talk about it.
If you aren’t one of them- then don’t participate. How simple is that, really? You want to spout off on a live and let live policy that I’m apparently missing yet you’re the one at MY blog telling me what I should be talking about.
How about you apply your live and let live policy to yourself and let me blather on about whatever I want to blather on about, k? I won’t go to your blog and tell you what is appropriate to talk about in return.
How about you indulge me in this question now:
What is your point in surfing here through an anonymous server? Afraid I’d track you back to your blog? What does it MATTER if I know who you are? Stand behind your words, ffs.
rofl…see this is why i read your blog, you are real, you stand behind what you say you are..slightly different subject…but don’t you just freakin’ hate it when you can’t access a blog because you aren’t a “friend” or you can’t leave a comment unless approved? what kind of shit is that? better to be hated for who you are than loved for who you are not….
I know Kaya already said this but…many/most people simply like discussing certain topics that are important to them. This is a discussion, that’s all. As long as nobody gets rude or belligerent about it, it’s fun. (and sometimes fun pwning the ones that get belligerent, ahahah)
I mean, you go to a cat blog and you’re going to find discussions on personality traits of cats and what kind of cat food they like and pictures. Lots and lots of pictures, hahaha. You go to a religious or political blog and you’ll find debate on various meanings. Constantly.
I get a lot of pleasure out of analyzing my own submission and hearing how others view their submission. A lot of the time what I hear makes me a better submissive, keeps me more focused on it. That’s all it is. Natural. :)
I, for one, enjoyed this discussion very much, even though I don’t agree with everybody. I thought everyone’s views were thoughtful and honest and I don’t see the problem with it at all.
@kaya the ‘elitist cunt’ teehee….
I think you just need to close the ifet screen and move away from the computer. You know every time you go there people twist your knickers into knots, so I say just don’t get involved.
Unless, of course, going to ifet scratches one of your qwerkier masochist itches? ;)
[rq=688572,0,blog][/rq]The one where I watch French porn and think about a kilogram of apples
what fun would that be?!
I don’t think you sound elite. Just… confused? Lol.
Something I’ve been running into, lately, is forgetting that not all submission is slavery. And those who don’t take part in master/slave interactions retain pretty much all their rights. Even the right to submit to something one day and refuse it the next.
And M&S? Yeah, it might as well be D&S these days. Cause most of them don’t know what a slave is. I guess I’m an elitist, too. *ducks*
[rq=690579,1,blog][/rq]BBW Submission
I had a chat about this the other night with molten about the whole slave thing. To me it’s simple, well actually no it’s a complete mindfuck but one I like visiting because it turns my brain into a puddle when I try working it out BUT … when I see the word/term slave I think … the right to say ‘no’ is highly different than in an instance where it would be with a submissive. A submissive has more leeway to ‘negotiate’ stuff. If one is going to call themselves a slave then one kinda delves into territory where even if they are having a PMS day from hell they still get up off their ass and do what they have been told to do even if they don’t like it. A submissive can have more tantrums and get away with it .. fuck I dunno but seriously I get what you mean and I pretty much agree. If one wants to do the slave thing then they kinda gotta know what they are signing up for. I didn’t think it was something one decides on daily *gets out of bed … hmmm I think I shall be 50% slave today cause yano I don’t feel like it* … gawd I like this kind of discussion it always screws with my brain.
I agree. I believe that yhe women who only submit when THEY want to or when they like something are not really submissive. They don’t really give the control over. It’s like a game to them. They only play it when THEY want to. So in truth, they are the DOM’s, not the subs.
[...] I know this conversation (argument?) is old as all hell, it was recently talked about by kaya (that’s post 2, methinks), morningstar, and swan. They all had insight and/or managed to incite [...]
*gets right to the point*
5 NEW KITTIES?!?!
*tap-dances on out*
[rq=731163,0,blog][/rq]I told my trainer to shut the fuck up…
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