A Mother’s Love
I got into an argument on Fet yesterday (go figure, right?) and I’m still just flabbergasted by the whole thing.
It had nothing to do with bdsm either.
So OP makes a post about someone she knew murdering their newborn (drowned in a bathroom sink apparently) and the mother’s influential family helping her get away with it and how she (the OP) hates her now.
At first the comments are all like, oh you poor thing! *pat pat pat* How awful for you to have to go through that!
And I’m all like… wtf! You’re talking about a murder here, ffs. A covered-up murder. This is not the OP’s tragedy, for one, and for two- wtf!
So then I’m blasted for daring to suggest the OP do something more than rant about it on Fetlife, fer christ’s sake. I’m on my moral high horse and shit, you know. Why can’t I just sympathize with the angst the OP is going through and why don’t I do something about it myself then if I’m so damn outraged and and and-
Hell, most couldn’t even agree on whether or not it was a murder. I mean, it was just a baby, for goodness sake. Probably a nonviable fetus anyway. Probably wouldn’t have survived without medical treatment anyway. Probably it was very much okay for the mother to drown the lump of flesh in the sink.
Srsly. Something is *wrong* with people.
(Turns out, as near as I can gather, there is nothing that can be done now. I’ll have to hope karma handles the rest.)
Anyway, it just made me realize how dismissive people tend to be over babies, and the value of their lives, these days. Abortion and pro-choice really has not been a successful journey, in my opinion.
Nothing but parasites and lumps of tissue.
Of course, I’m looking at precious Babygirl sleeping right next to me with her rosy lips all pursed and her little hands fisted, barely audible baby-snores, so trusting and confident in us to care for her- and I’m so in love with her that undoubtedly I’m not able to see this with any objectivity at all.
I thought a mother’s love was fierce. Man, look cross-eyed at my granddaughter and I’m liable to come uncunted.
Uncunted is my new word, btw.
Heh. I remember scaring the bejesus out of a kid one time at the roller skating rink because he was picking on B-man. This kid was at least twice B-man’s age AND size. I think B-man was in kindergarten, maybe first grade- still learning how to roller skate and not at all steady on his skates- and this kid was lying in wait to trip him every time he skated by. Just thought it was *hilarious* to watch B-man splat on his face. I watched him for a little while, and then finally I stomped out into the rink, snatched him up by his ugly little polo shirt and told him in no uncertain terms that if he tripped my kid one more time I was gonna kick his ass.
Oh I’m not proud of threatening to kick the ass of a 10 year old, but he left my kid alone after that.
Grr. Don’t fuck with my kids. Only I can do that.
So Am’s attempt to get a GSA off the ground is at a standstill. None of the teachers will host it and without that, it’s a dead end. I’m sure the school board is delighted to see it stomped out before it even got started. Fucking close-minded bastards.
She went to homecoming with her girlfriend and that went okay. There were some comments, some sneers when they danced together, but overall she said there were more positive comments than negative.
However, they didn’t try and get in at the cheaper couple-admission price, instead paying as two singles. They didn’t want to cause a scene.
They were also told later by a friend on the yearbook staff to not expect to see any photos of the two of them in the yearbook. She’s not going to object to that either.
While I’m all sorts of ready to jump up and threaten to kick ass again – she’s not. And I can’t force it on her. It’s not me who has to go to that school and face the kids and the teachers everyday. Inside I’m lecturing her to stand up for her rights and fight for equality. Outside I’m telling her that she needs to do what feels right for her.
Using her as a pawn to fight my own battles against social injustice just isn’t right. But the minute she’s on board with it, I’m snatching the school up by its ugly polo shirt, by-fucking-God.
Grrs, I say.
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Uncategorized | kaya | 
Wednesday October 21st, 2009 6:56am
*hands kaya a pitchfork, and some tar and feathers*
totally agree:D like usual.
Thanks. :)
It wasn’t so long ago that I got in the grill of a 6 year old who was picking on my autistic son..so I understand.
As far as the baby killing, it amazes me what people get away with. Was it Lacey Peterson who was killed with the 8 month baby inside her? They stated on the news that it shouldn’t have been considered a double murder, because “it isn’t human until it is born”.
Yeah.
My son was born at 8 mos. Looked, acted, and smelled like a sweet little baby to me! Not human…jeebus…
Yesterday, in Memphis, a woman left her 2 and 3 year old children home alone. The house burned down, killing the babies. When the news crew asked, “Do you regret leaving your children alone?” She answered – get this- “What I’m worried about is they better find my purse! It has my food stamps and cards in it and my whole life in there!”
I’m glad I wasn’t there. I know I would have slapped her.
I totally do not understand the laws surrounding babies in the womb. In some cases, the baby is killed and it’s murder. Other cases, the baby isn’t considered a human. I just… gah. I’d be a horrible dictator if I were in charge of this.
Curious: Was that woman charged with anything, do you know?
That was the kicker – I got the info from a Memphis cop who I went to high school with, and he says NO. Nothing. Zilch. Nada.
They can’t charge them. Why? I have no idea. The last time I checked, it wasn’t legal to leave children beneath a certain age home alone for even 5 minutes. I’m pretty sure that includes 2 and 3 yr olds.
Bonkers, I tell ya.
Wow. That really is strange. I remember when my brother and sis-in-law were leaving their kids (ages approx: 8 and 5) home alone for about an hour in the morning before getting on the school bus because they both had to get to work- were investigated by DCFS and told to find alternate methods of child care or face losing their kids.
That just boggles the mind, doesn’t it?
Hello kaya. :)
This is my first comment outside of LOL-day (haha), but I just really loved this post. The world would be a better place if all parents had the same lines of thought that you do. Thank you for posting, as always. ;)
Thanks, Eve. :)
I totally understand wanting to fight for Am’s rights, it’s that protective mom coming out. Sheesh, my kids are all in their 20′s and in the military; and if I could find the right officer’s ass to kick, I would!
On the murdered baby..I don’t understand how she got away with it, even if the family is influential; but apparantly the life of a baby is worth nothing to a lot of people. You know, a person is considered still alive as long as their heart is beating, even if their on machines to keep them going; however, a baby’s heart starts beating 18 days after conception and they’re not considered to even be alive, for the most part, until they’re born. How sad it’s all become.
I hear ya. It’s sad and disgusting and it makes me angry.
That post was a hot mess, and I totally agree with you. If the OP has such an issue with it why is she just complaining on a social networking site and not screaming it from the rooftops or at least to the people who need to hear it? And all the people who were consoling her are just making it worse.
Part of me thinks it was a made up story to get attention. A lot of it just doesn’t jive, yanno?
In addition to the pitch fork, tar and feathers you were given above, I add that you live with that Sir of yours and that means that I’m sure you already have plenty of rope, chain, implements of torture there somewhere. What more do you need hon? LOL
[rq=952706,0,blog][/rq]MFM–Their little contest.
lol. True dat, true dat.
Uuuuuuuugh. Infantcide is never okay.
Agreed. Now to convince the rest of the world…
seriously, I’m totally with you on this. It makes me sick to my stomach that people hurt their children. Everytime I hear of something like this all I can think of is my little boy and how I’d tear them in half in anyone hurt him.
I remember reading a story our paper about a boy (20 something) who threw his baby against a couch because he had to work the next day, was tired, and baby wouldnt stop crying. I think they gave him like 4-5 years or some shit. Fuckin A. He robbed the kid of the next 18+ years of his life. Its wish canada had the death penalty still, people like this make me ashamed for humanity.
You know what baffles me about cases like that is in one case someone will get a slap on the wrist and in another case, they get life.
I think they should all get life. While the death penalty is nice (ha. We’re sick.) I hear that prison can be pretty rough so a lifetime spent in prison sounds just about right. Let THEM get beat on/raped for the next 50 years. I’m okay with that.
From what I’ve heard, there are some crimes that are considered unexcusable even in the prison yard. Child abuse, child rape, child MURDER are the major ones.
Yes, yes. Let them get life. Mwahaha *rubs hands to together with glee*
What? Did I say I was nice? Hmph.
Go Mama :)
btw, is it alright if i add you on fetlife?
Yes! Of course. Please. :)
I read this. Then had to walk away. Finally came back. Phew. I….I fear I can’t say all I want to. Horrified. Is this where we have come to as a society? That it’s okay to murder your child just because it’s “yours”? I wish I could remember the quote accurately, “your children come from you, but are not you. They are the sons and daughters of life longing for itself…”
My 4 kids are all adopted. I could never have bio kids of my own, so I thank the Goddess, and the women,their birthmothers, who provided us with the ability to adopt these children that were otherwise “unwanted” (for lack of a better word) but not “terminated”. And they may not have come from my or my wife’s womb, but they are loved so deeply. Each so precious and special to us. My musical son, a preemie who was just 4 pounds when I held him for the first time, at 3 days old. My daughter, (as well as the preemie) born drug-addicted, but otherwise okay, and both growing and healthy. At 5 and almost 3.. I cannot imagine my life without them, despite how tired I am at times. I am a happy,fulfilled stay at home Mom of 4, who is nearly 51 years old. They keep me young. Tired, but young! I hope, somewhere, somehow, Karma whams the everluvin shit out of that piece of human crap. Nuff said.
Nilla
deeply saddened.
[rq=953215,0,blog][/rq]Camp Nekkink ch. 12
“That it’s okay to murder your child just because it’s “yours”?”
That is absolutely how some people think. Abortion anyone? Sickening isn’t it?
I think your kids have to be the luckiest kids in the world. You go, mama.
I completely understand the problems that AM is having, it shows how narrow minded and f**ked up our society is these days with its views of what is right and wrong
*nod nod nod*
Ok, Imma gonna jump in here and hopefully not cause a big ol shitstorm.
Anyone bother to ask why she drowned her newborn in the sink? Anyone think to ask if she’s ‘getting away with it’ because she’s suffering intense postpartum depression? Or the even worse version, postpartum psychosis?
No, I’m not saying it’s ok to drown one’s newborn. What I am saying is maybe there was something that made her do it. Yes, it’s murder no matter what – but since we don’t know what was happening inside that mother’s head, who are we to revile her?
I’d like to know the facts before I condemn her. Until then, I have as much sadness and compassion for her as I do her baby.
All I know (according to the poster on Fet) is that she hid her pregnancy from everyone, gave birth by herself in the bathroom and drowned the baby right then and there. Her mother, being the local DA, protected her from any legal consequences.
I’ve my doubts on the truth of it all, to begin with. But if it IS true, it’s incredibly fucked up.
Whether or not I’d have any sympathy for the woman due to post-partum issues has no bearing on whether or not she should be held accountable for her actions. Regardless of her reasoning (or lack thereof), a baby is dead.
I’d like to know the facts, too, but I doubt we’ll get them.
Kaya,
God Damn! I left my condolences on that post early on and never came back (I just assumed from the OPs post that legal action wasn’t an option). If I’d stayed, I would have gone off like a nuclear warhead at the first suggestion that there could have been a reason to justify such a killing. But, it never occured to me that anyone could even think such a thing. I guess my imagination isn’t as good as I think it is.
I shouldn’t have been surprised though. I read an article a while back where an ehtics professor at a prestigeous university (I’m spacing on the name) was trying to make the case for not considdering newborns people until their first birthday, so that latent problems could be dealt with (i.e. killing the child legally). My God, the man was teaching medical students medical ethics!
As for Am, I don’t suppose her school is hiring, are they. I would so sponsor her club if I was working there. I do understand that it takes a commitment to allowing one’s self to be reviled and attacked to stand up for one’s rights; and she has her girlfriend to think of as well.
Dave
I don’t know that anyone justified the murder… well, maybe they did.
It just seemed like there was more sympathy extended to the OP and the ‘mother’ and the fact that a baby died wasn’t important. Blew my mind.
This story sounds a bit suspect to me, to be honest. For one thing, how do we know any part of it is true? For another, how does the OP *know* that the mother drowned the baby? Maybe the baby died of SIDS or some other tragic cause, and the OP is falsely accusing an innocent, grief-stricken mom?? I mean, seriously, a death occurred in the home, which means that the baby was most likely taken to a hospital and the county Medical Examiner reviewed the case. An the family was so powerful as to keep it completely quiet?? If that family were that prominent, it seems to me that the story would be that much more likely to be leaked to the press.
Just sayin’.
I have my doubts over the validity of the story myself. I’m wondering how an ME could have missed the fact that an infant drowned. And just how powerful must this family be to have covered it all up so well.
It couldn’t have been SIDS, at least not from according to the info provided by the poster at Fet. The baby was killed immediately following birth.
I suspect that either the poster made the story up to get attention, or the mother made a secret “confession” for shock value. I just don’t know.
I barely ever read Fetlife; I can’t keep up with how little computer time I have. Which means I have no idea of the thread. I agree with The Blue One that there’s not enough information to judge (not that I have any place to, anyway).
My ‘real’ comment is that, no matter which one of these things it is – it’s not the same as abortion. I, personally, am proudly pro-choice. I strongly considered abortion when I got pregnant with an unwanted child, despite being on birth control. I had him, obviously, and love him to death – I loved him before he was born, which is why I can say that I could’ve aborted him and never known what I was missing, but I couldn’t have given him away after carrying him to term.
It’s my opinion (note: opinion. I respect other’s opinions, I just don’t share them) that fetuses ARE parasites – they fit the scientific description of a parasite, and there’s no symbiotic relationship with their host, either. They’re little leeches until they’re born (and mine was for four years afterwards!).
I think that fetuses should have no rights until they’re viable, because until then they are part of their mother’s bodies. After they are viable humans, then they have the right to life, because they can do it on their own (they need cared for, but they are ALIVE on their own).
I think there are also too, too many kids that are unwanted already, and I know of far too many people that cannot care for their own children. I think it’s odd that many people bitch about higher taxes and what people do with their foodstamp dollars and public health care, but are against abortion – despite the fact that those same tax dollars will go to feed and school those children, if not to house and care for them. I also think that the incidence of backyard abortions and baby killings would go way up if abortions were legal (as well as thinking it’s not the government’s decision what a person does with their body) so I think making abortion illegal would be a terrible thing. Abortion and pro-choice keep things like what happened from happening more often – but it has to go hand-in-hand with comprehensive safer-sex education; the abstinence only programs that are taught now are ridiculous, and do not work.
Sorry for the novel, I think I’m the first pro-choicer to stand up and in the comments and I have a ton to say on the issue.
[rq=955010,0,blog][/rq]Public Post
Thank you, TbL, for this post.
The informtation we were given according to the OP was that the mother had hidden the pregnancy, gave birth in the bathroom alone and drowned the baby in the sink immediately following the birth.
Though I’ve my doubts to the validity of the story to begin with, IF it’s all true, I’m absolutely going to judge, because of this line right here: “After they are viable humans, then they have the right to life,”. If the baby had to be drowned to death, then it was breathing and it was alive. She killed it.
Assuming it’s all true, that is.
For the rest, as an adamant pro-lifer, I can’t agree with you. I can, and DO, respect your opinion. You’re more than welcome to share it here. I won’t argue with it, or you, because I adore you.
*Hugs Kaya tight*
The feeling’s mutual, lady. I can’t believe anyone, even the ‘pro-choice till it’s graduated’ type (of which I am not), would argue that that is murder. I did go and find the thread, and I have a hard time believing it’s real, particularly since the OP never came back and said a damn thing again, as far as I could tell. Maybe she’s an intentional shit stirrer?
As far as our opposing opinions…I know where you stand, and you know where I stand – and yet we both respect the other’s views and choices. Wouldn’t it be nice if the rest of the damn world worked that way?
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‘pro-choice till it’s graduated’– wait, wait, wait. Was that an option? *eyeing the three teenagers*
I may sign up for that one! ;-)
I’m pro-choice, and you stated the gray areas of this viewpoint so well. There is a vast difference between an embryo and a viable fetus, imo.
The irony is that far too many (not you, kaya!) of those who consider themselves pro-life also support teaching abstinence-only sex education in schools. And use situations such as Jes as an example of how teaching contraception doesn’t work. WTF? Bristol Palin, how’d that work out for you?
Abstinence is a complete lost cause. They should just give it up already..lol Teenagers are gonna fuck, the end.
Funnel more research into birth control, for both boys and girls. Stop wasting time telling them not to have sex and instead, teach them how to do it responsibly.
Or something. Not like I have all the answers- or any answers, for that matter.
And I was so rambly I forgot – you’re doing exactly what I’d want my own mother to do if I were in Am’s shoes. I’m much more a fighter, a stand-up-and-shout when I feel there’s injustice, but those that I love and support don’t always feel the same way and it’s hard to sit back and be quiet…but it’s what I have to do to respect their wishes.
[rq=955107,0,blog][/rq]Public Post
There are so many mothers who are detached from many of the aspects of motherhood.
And there are so many fathers who are detached from ALL the aspects of fatherhood.
Being a parent and involving yourself in parenthood are two different things.
I guess it’s a good thing that it still shocks me how much people manage to disgust me. At least I’m not entirely used to it.
~Chloe
[rq=956078,0,blog][/rq]To Birth Or Not To Birth
I think I’m getting used to it.
Does that mean I’m old now? Bah.
You already know how I feel about this. I’m still angry about it and can’t return to that thread.
;)
I’m staying away from it (for now).
I’d hate to come uncunted in public. Again. ;-)
I couldn’t resist. I added one more. Hmmm, I think immediately after I posted here even. HA! Ok..back to the sub vs slave thread. ;)
omg. How in the world do you have that conversation every week and not pull your hair out?? Even with it as sticky topic on top of the page, they can’t help but ask it over and over and over again.
Argh! I don’t even participate and I’m irritated..lol
Not everyone with the ‘lump of flesh’ perspective is pro-choice, and not all pro-choicers see babies as mere lumps of flesh. In fact, I believe most pro-choice advocates would be incredibly offended by the suggestion that pushing for abortion as a viable option has created the notion that drowning a baby is somehow “okay”… considering that people, not always poor and desperate ones, have been exposing and abandoning unwanted infants since centuries before abortion existed.
If pro-choice supporters don’t see them as a “lump of flesh”, then how do they justify the right to terminate? They certainly don’t see fetuses as human. Unless they’re advocating the right to terminate human life? I really don’t want to argue, I was just confused by that statement.
“offended by the suggestion that pushing for abortion as a viable option has created the notion that drowning a baby is somehow “okay”…”
I’m not so sure. I can’t help but wonder how or why they can rationalize that killing the baby in utero- sorry, terminating the pregnancy- is perfectly okay, but the second that child is delivered, it is not okay.
People have been exposing and abandoning infants for centuries. I can’t argue that. But is your position that pro-choice, and the subsequent devaluing of fetus/infant life has helped that? I can’t agree with that.
It’s okay, let’s call a fetus a baby. Unless it’s dead or very messed up, I’ll agree it’s a baby by the time most people know they’re pregnant (and prior to that time the notion of ‘choice’ is kind of irrelevant). I think ‘baby’ is a good term because it does value the potential human life, and because it clarifies for someone who is in a position to make the ‘choice’ implied by the phrase ‘pro-choice’ exactly how important their actions are. I don’t think killing the baby in utero is perfectly okay. I think it’s a terrible thing to do.
I’m probably not a good person to defend pro-choice, see, because I am not really pro-choice. ‘Choice’ suggests a level of flippancy that’s just ridiculous. The problem is that I do believe women need exceptional options in our culture at this time, because at this time our culture is a mess. I don’t see the changes that I believe our culture needs – demystifying sex and birth control, de- ‘slutting’ sex for women, providing viable child-rearing options for very young mothers and fathers (utter reliance on the grandparents isn’t good enough – no offense, you and your Master are obviously great, but our culture shouldn’t be counting on you in this way!), and more stuff that Figleaf (should I link him?) has written about way better than I ever will. Since those things aren’t materializing, I believe abortion needs to be a limited personal option. (I believe it always needs to be a medical option, but I think cases where the mother’s life is in danger or the baby is going to die imminently are not the biggest issues on the table.) I believe it could stand to be a more controlled, but less demonized, option than it is now. I think those things might go hand in hand – if the ‘terrible thing’ were only done in truly terrible circumstances, I’d like to hope that pro-lifers would be less offended about the whole thing.
Anyway, let’s assume I can’t defend pro-choice very well. I do, however, want to defend people who believe that choice should be offered (for whatever reasons, with whatever limitations, at this time) specifically because I don’t think these people should, as a whole, be saddled with our culture’s devaluing of babies. I don’t believe it was ever the goal of the pro-choice movement to devalue the life of a baby, and if it was, well, poop on whoever decided that was a good plan! If this devaluing has happened, I would argue that it’s due to the need to argue this point over and over again rather than spending our collective energies on creating a more sexually positive and educated culture. One that, for example, lets a girl take birth control without the druggist’s assistant hitting on her because hey, if she has birth control, she’s obviously a huge slut – right? Basically, when a person is obliged to argue the same point a hundred times, the argument gets more and more extreme, and more and more ridiculous, until you get to a point where your words are equating ‘parasitic life stage’ (scientifically true!) with ‘worthless’ (so sad!). I don’t think any pro-choicer I know ever wanted to go there, or really believes that in their heart.
I also want to try to make the case that drowning babies immediately after birth (and exposing them, and abandoning them) is not new, and I don’t believe it’s become more prevalent as a result of abortion being legal. I would hope it’s become less prevalent as a result of *birth control* being legal, and I believe I’ve read that it’s obviously, enormously, hugely less prevalent where severe poverty is not an issue. I would bet there’s an anthropological or social-history text that makes this case more eloquently (or with more facts and figures) than I do, but I will freely admit I can’t name it and probably haven’t read it, save in quotes in my dreary science magazines. ;)
So those are my cases, I guess. 1) I don’t think pro-choicers mean to devalue human life, and if they’ve done so, I think that’s collateral damage in a regrettable battle that could have been avoided by better social education and tolerance in the first place, and 2) I don’t think the drowning of a child (or, sadly, even of many children) is adequate reason to believe that legal abortion has devalued the lives of children in the eyes of society as a whole.
Whew. Thanks for asking questions and helping me clarify. And for letting me put so many words on your blog page. *^.^*
And after all that I realize that for point 2 it’s not really like you are saying the drowning of a child does point to the devaluing of babies in the eyes of society… you’re saying the attitude of some Fetlife posters points to that. I guess, not having read the posts, I can’t say much to that. My hunch would be that they’re trying to make themselves feel less horrified – deadening the pain by telling themselves it’s okay. Or, possibly, trying to Start Something Ugly. Sounds like that happens on Fetlife sometimes. ;)
“trying to Start Something Ugly. Sounds like that happens on Fetlife sometimes”
Only about every hour on the hour. That’s not too bad. ;)
“The problem is that I do believe women need exceptional options in our culture at this time, because at this time our culture is a mess.”
Oh Lordie, can I ever agree with that. Please, someone come up with more and better options. (notice how I’m not willing or able to help with or find those options myself. Don’t think I’m not aware of my own..erm.. hypocrisy? Lazy? Avoidance? What word fits here?)
“if the ‘terrible thing’ were only done in truly terrible circumstances, I’d like to hope that pro-lifers would be less offended about the whole thing.”
I tend to think so, too. What shocks me about abortion and what plants me firmly on the side of pro-life is the statistics. While I’m aware that any website can toss up numbers and that it’s not necessarily an accurate scientific conclusion, what I understand is that the majority of abortions are NOT performed because of ‘terrible circumstances’- unless of course those terrible circumstances include “it’s a girl and I want a boy” or “Oops, I got drunk” or “Meh. I decided I’m not ready.”
Those just don’t qualify as “terrible” for me. I suppose for others they do though.
Figleaf? Link please. ;-)
“I don’t believe it was ever the goal of the pro-choice movement to devalue the life of a baby[...] I would argue that it’s due to the need to argue this point over and over again rather than spending our collective energies on creating a more sexually positive and educated culture.”
You could very well be right. However, being saddled with that “rep” comes with the territory of choosing a side. Just as I, being pro-life, am saddled with people thinking I think of women as nothing but “hosts”, that I don’t care about women’s rights, etc., etc.
And we are, indeed, choosing sides. There’s no other way to put it.
In individual cases, such as between you and I, wherein I know you aren’t a baby-hater and you (hopefully) know that I’m not out to set women back 80 years in progression, we can conclude we aren’t “the bad guys”, but as a whole, as a group- those are the reputations.
Fun stuff first – Figleaf here: http://www.realadultsex.com/
He writes more about politics (of sex, in large part) than sex, but he does do some nice Half-Naked Tuesday posts. ;)
I agree totally that some circumstances aren’t terrible enough, and that way too many abortions happen when education and wise decision-making would have been better. Or even the morning-after pill, which according to latest studies may not even prevent implantation – its effectiveness may be wholly in preventing ovulation, which if true would please even those who are against preventing implantation within hours of fertilization. My personal jury is out – I think it’s no substitute for education and social progress, but perhaps a better option than abortion.
Anyway, one of the terrible circumstances I always think of, and maybe the most important one, is when the baby is the product of rape. Now, that’s not the baby’s fault, and a woman who chooses to carry that baby to term and then give it up for adoption is a hero, but as I see it, not everyone should be obliged to be _that_ heroic. (I’m against the draft too!)
The reason I don’t want to see abortion more limited at this time is almost entirely due to the rape scenario. If we limit abortions to women whose lives are threatened, whose fetuses are doomed to death or inadequate life due to health issues of their own, and women whose pregnancies result from rape – well, two of those situations we can figure out promptly and a doctor can provide proof. But our society’s structure for proving rape isn’t usually medical, but legal. Because of the structure of our legal system, a woman is unlikely to still be in a safe stage of pregnancy to even consider abortion by the time her court case is over – and that assumes she has the heroism to pursue a court case at all.
So… I think abortion is a band-aid, an ugly terrible one, for a whole complex of interlocking problems with our culture, society, and law. But it’s not a band-aid I’m willing to give up without a better one on hand.
Also, kaya, this has been an awesome interchange and I thank you for letting me have it! You’re a hero, too, you know. :)
Opens up the umbrella and steps out into the storm…
In a perfect world there would be no debate about choice or no choice, or about human or nonhuman. In a perfect world we would never have to face difficult decisions. I know I would never have been able to terminate a pregnancy of my own. I also know I would never, never, never be able to dictate to someone else what I ultimately believe is their choice to make. In a better world they would have a dozen better options than termination.
That being said there is a world of difference between infanticide and abortion. To confuse the two is to muddy the debate and to minimize the justified outrage of us all.
And as far as Am, bullying skaters and becoming uncunted… grizzly bears have nothing on us humans. Never let some stranger come between me and my babies. (even though they are both over six feet tall and shave now.)
“In a better world they would have a dozen better options than termination.”
Yes. Exactly. I don’t have the answers, obviously, I only know which answer is the wrong one (in my opinion, which means nothing to anyone but me.)
“That being said there is a world of difference between infanticide and abortion.”
Right. And I’m not sure that concept came through on that thread. I know my outrage was not welcome nor understood.
A large percentage–perhaps even a majority–of people on fetlife are complete fucktards. I read the thread after you pointed it out and I thought the outrage toward you and the sympathy toward the OP was just bizarre. Good on you for doing what you did.
Re: this: “If pro-choice supporters don’t see them as a “lump of flesh”, then how do they justify the right to terminate? They certainly don’t see fetuses as human. Unless they’re advocating the right to terminate human life? I really don’t want to argue, I was just confused by that statement.”
There’s no right to terminate human life, but in some circumstances, I would argue, it’s not morally wrong to terminate human life. For example, if someone is about to kill you, most people think it’s morally acceptable to act in self-defense, even if you have to kill. That’s why virtually all anti-abortion statutes contain an exception where the life of the mother is threatened.
The classic account of why abortion might still be moral even IF you regard the fetus as a human life is the so-called violinist thought experiment that Judith Jarvis Thompson came up with in the early 70s. There are a lot of philosophical problems with her idea, but basically, it’s also the explanation for how someone could think a fetus is a person and still think abortion was justified.
Here’s a link to a copy of the article:
http://spot.colorado.edu/~heathwoo/Phil160,Fall02/thomson.htm
I don’t wanna argue either, but you asked the question and I had an answer and so there you go . . . a little light reading! (Eep.)
By the way, your point the weird pre/post birth distinction is obviously a good one. It’s another philosophical problem. One Princeton philosopher (Peter Singer) is famous for being in favor not just of abortion but of baby-killing. At least he’s consistent.
[rq=964154,0,blog][/rq]Misperception
If the conclusion we have to come to is that abortion is simply “self-centered and callous, indecent” but not unjust- I can go with that.
Also, this line here: “Ah, now he can stay, she’s given him a right to the use of her house–for she is partially responsible for his presence there, having voluntarily done what enabled him to get in, in full knowledge that there are such things as burglars, and that burglars burgle.” made me lol. ;)
Um…there’s a world of a difference between abortion and infantside. The majority of abortions happen before the end of the first trimester. It’s rare by the time the fetus hits viablity and most abortions that happen after viability are for therapeutic reasons (i.e if a woman’s life is in danger or a fetus has some major problem like tris 13).
The difference between a non-viable fetus, which is aborted most of the time, and a baby is the baby can survive outside of the womb without using the same oxygen as the woman is breathing and nutrients that it’s getting from it’s mother. Anyone can take care of a baby if the mother doesn’t want to or has died.
A non-viable fetus CANNOT survive outside the womb…not even with the assistance of machinary. Put it this way…if a woman is pregnant with a fetus that’s not viable and she dies in a car accident…there will not be any way that fetus will be save. It will die along with the woman. Same thing happens if a woman has ectopic pregnancy and she doesn’t choose to terminate…it dies with the woman.
What that woman did to her baby was murder. Last time I checked, babies had personhood. Last time I checked, murder is the unlawful killing of a person with malice and intent. All of that applies to what that woman did with that baby.
I’m pro-choice. I support abortion electively until viability. Personally, I wouldn’t have an abortion unless my life was in danger. However, even I as a choicer know the difference between aborting a fetus that has no chance of hell of surviving outside of the womb if it isn’t viable and a baby that can be taken care of by anyone if the mother doesn’t want it.
[rq=965742,0,blog][/rq]Welcome to my Journal!
I get the difference between viable and non-viable. I mean, how can anyone argue the points of having the ability to sustain life outside of human life support vs. the inability to sustain life, right?
Where I splinter from your thinking is that non-viable is synonymous with disposable. But, that’s the nature of the disagreement between pro-life and pro-choice. *shrug*
“However, even I as a choicer know the difference between aborting a fetus that has no chance of hell of surviving outside of the womb if it isn’t viable and a baby that can be taken care of by anyone if the mother doesn’t want it.”
That really didn’t come through on that thread on Fet. It just didn’t. There was very little malice or outrage expressed against the woman who supposedly murdered her baby. The general attitude that I picked up on was very dismissive of it, there was a lot of curiousity and sympathy shown about, and toward, the mother. Why would she do that, what events in her life lead to that, blah blah blah– but an absolute dismissal of the baby as a child. An easy acceptance of it as non-viable, even WITH the OP’s specifically saying that the baby had been drowned.
That just baffles me. Utterly baffles me. Someone says a baby was murdered by drowing and the general reaction is “Oh well. It probably would have died anyway.” Blows my mind.
“Where I splinter from your thinking is that non-viable is synonymous with disposable. But, that’s the nature of the disagreement between pro-life and pro-choice. *shrug*”
I wouldn’t call a non-viable fetus disposable. It’s survival rate just sucks, no matter if a woman chooses to carry to term or terminate a pregnancy. IMHO, I hope that no one…who is pro-choice and pro-life…doesn’t base their stance off of what goes on in nature because frankly…nature is neither. Nature can take away a woman’s choice by miscarrying a pregnancy they wanted while it can ensure that many pregnancies (especially if they are before twelve weeks) don’t make it to term.
“That just baffles me. Utterly baffles me. Someone says a baby was murdered by drowing and the general reaction is “Oh well. It probably would have died anyway.” Blows my mind.”
From moderating a pro-choice board for three years, I never saw any choicer that had that mentality (because I would’ve bitched them out). However, I have heard stories about how there are a few people in the movement that think that even babies shouldn’t have personhood because they rely on someone else for surival.
If that’s their belief, they don’t pay attention that well. There’s a world of difference when it comes to survival of a baby and a non-viable fetus. A baby can be taken care of by anyone and if it has health problems, a machine or medicine can help it. A non-viable fetus soley depends on the woman for survival because if she dies, the fetus is screwed. We don’t have the means to transfer a non-viable fetus from the woman dying to an artifical womb or another woman without it dying first. Either way, it would probably die before the transfer since it no longer has oxygen.
I am pro-choice outside the abortion debate. However, I will admit that I’m not 100% pro-choice. I do not support the choice when someone:
-intentionally kills a born entity maliciously for non-survival purposes
-causes injury intentionally to a born entity for non-survival purposes
-abuse (of any form) and neglect a born entity.
Then again, as far as I’m concern, no one is 100% pro-choice like they aren’t 100% pro-life.
[rq=972371,0,blog][/rq]Welcome to my Journal!
I’m pro choice. I have two adult children we adore and one grandchild we adore even more, maybe, lol. :)
And yet, I still believe we women should be able to decide for ourselves whether they want to go through the arduous and painful and life-changing process of having a baby.
Sub as I am, it is one of the few things that I say is up to we woman to decide. We are the ones to face this. Men do not.
We do.
And I firmly believe hat decision should be up to every woman.
But killing a living baby? That has nothing to do with stopping the process that has not yet made a baby.
Not every woman has a loving support system. Like you guys have. Like we have for our baby granddaughter.
Not everyone should be a mommy. Thank god today we women have a choice.
Killing a living breathing baby in a sink? I’m sorry but that isn’t the same as a woman deciding, as only we women can decide, to stop cells multiplying inside our bodies *before* they are a “baby”.
(And Kaya, I will always support you on your belief for you and yours. :))
And yet, I still believe we women should be able to decide for ourselves whether they want to go through the arduous and painful and life-changing process of having a baby.
Sub as I am, it is one of the few things that I say is up to we woman to decide. We are the ones to face this. Men do not.
We do.
And I firmly believe hat decision should be up to every woman.
But killing a living baby? That has nothing to do with stopping the process that has not yet made a baby.
Not every woman has a loving support system. Like you guys have. Like we have for our baby granddaughter.
Not everyone should be a mommy. Thank god today we women have a choice.
Killing a living breathing baby in a sink? I’m sorry but that isn’t the same as a woman deciding, as only we women can decide, to stop cells multiplying inside our bodies *before* they are a “baby”.
Well said…that’s a hell a lot better than what I said imo
[rq=970001,0,blog][/rq]Welcome to my Journal!
“That has nothing to do with stopping the process that has not yet made a baby.”
Just curious- at what point, in your opinion, does that process begin? I lean toward conception (and totally am on the side of preventing conception; by God put b.c. pills in the nations water supply if ya gotta!) but I also know that that belief is not the common one. At least, not for pro-choice folks..lol
Embryonic development begins at conception, as the cells begin to multiply. I don’t see how anyone could say that’s *not* when the process begins. Some say the moment the sperm enters the egg it’s a baby right then, some say it’s later.
But for me abortion is about the mother. She’s a person, she’s survived through infancy and childhood, adolescence and (hopefully) adulthood. Maybe she feels she’s too poor or too overwhelmed or she has too many children already or maybe she’s just too plain scared to do it (I almost died having my Ray) and I would never tell another woman she must go through with a pregnancy if she feels she cannot go through with it. Whatever her reasons.
I would give up my life for my children without question if it ever comes to that. Without question. But going through pregnancy and childbirth took something from me forever. Something about me was never the same after having them. I’d do it again in a heartbeat, don’t get me wrong.
But never would I insist another woman do that to her body and soul if she didn’t want to do it.
Maybe she has very good reasons to do it, reasons I don’t know because I can’t see into her mind and heart.
Bottom line, it’s her business, not mine.
(To reiterate, I’m speaking about abortion and not the infanticide of an already born baby.)
Oh and I forgot to say in all mah serious pontificating and such that hell’s yeah, baby grandchildren rule, don’t they? So wonderful and beautiful… I know you’re enjoying yours the way we are enjoying ours. :)
have not read all the comments- i apologize but am on a time cramp. Just had to stop and comment that i have a hard time with violence, abuse, or neglect- toward children especially. The younger, the more disturbing though i obvous think it is all wrong. i just cannot see how anyone could overlook their innocence and the fact that they are the future…period. i mean how the hell can you witness first had the miracle of creation and destroy it? sick, sick, sick… i think that all pissed mothers should be able to take this person out in the middle of no where and have their turn with them…
[rq=973218,0,blog][/rq]Brighten a Rainy Day HNT
Here’s a quote I came across yesterday: having an abortion doesn’t make you un-pregnant; it simply makes you the mother of a dead baby.
Thought you might like that one :-D
:-*
I had two abortions. I guess for you that means I had two dead babies.
People who say such things never faced it, maybe. Or maybe you had a great support system. Or maybe you were never scared…or, maybe you were scared but you are stronger than I could ever be.
I was 17 the first time I had an abortion…scared, so scared, and 34 and with two children already that we were struggling to raise the second time.
I made each decision based upon what I could do at the time.
You want to say my decisions were wrong and evil and murder? That I have two dead children and two living children?
Okay.
Say it. But know this..
You didn’t walk in my fucking shoes and you don’t know my life. You don’t know why I did what I did. And it’s none of your business.
I have two fantastic adult children who are grown now. Yeah, I raised them and they are amazing. My daughter, 31 now, just had her first baby.
I love my family. They love me.
Enjoy your quote. I’m sure it makes you very smug.
Nope, sure isn’t my business, but that didn’t stop you from getting on your high horse and making it my business, did it?
Yes, for me that means you have two live babies and two dead ones. I can understand your reluctance to think of it in such a way, but that doesn’t change the truth of it now does it? The truth isn’t pretty, sometimes.
For the record, I believe abortion should be legal; that it is a necessary part of a free society. I also believe we need to change America’s perception of what abortion really is. It isn’t erasing a mistake, it’s erasing a baby.
And also for the record? At 42 I found myself unexpectedly pregnant. We were struggling financially, I have a chronic health condition that would only complicate the pregnancy (and quite possibly affect the baby), and we were two small years away from all our kids being grown. Did I think about having an abortion? You betcha. Who wouldn’t?
“or, maybe you were scared but you are stronger than I could ever be.”
Yes, apparently so. Don’t get all pissed off at me because I won’t pat your hand and tell you it’s ok that you had abortions. You did what you felt you had to do, and in the same situation I did what I had to do.
Smug? No. Just 100% sure the two year old turning my world upside down was worth the price.
” It isn’t erasing a mistake, it’s erasing a baby.”
Abortion isn’t always about “erasing a mistake”. It can be a way to save a woman’s life if her life is threatened like from ectopic. Most women, who do go through ectopic pregnancies, did want to carry to term. However, if they didn’t chose to terminate, they would die along with the fetus…since ectopic is one of those situations where a fetus is screwed no matter what the woman chooses to do.
For others, it’s a way to prevent anymore trauma like if they were raped. Sure, some people can handle taking care of their rapist’s baby. Sure, others can hanlde carrying their rapist’s baby for nine months to give it up for adoption. However, there are people out there that cannot handle either solution. They don’t see it being worth their mental and physical health to carry to term their attacker’s kid either to raise or give up for adoption. If they keep the kid, they might have huge resentment towards it…which could affect the child when it’s older. If they give the kid up for adoption, they may have to deal with their kid returning and explaining to them why they were given up for adoption. Not to mention, maybe they don’t want to put their kids through hell by giving them info that they were concieved out of a sexually attack rather than love or pleasure.
At the end of the day, regardless if there’s controversy or not, abortion is still the termination of a pregnancy resulting in the death of a fetus, whether it’s induced or not. If it’s induced, most of the time, it’s a medical procedure.
[rq=997723,0,blog][/rq]Welcome to my Journal!
From everything I’ve read about abortion (and I understand that statistics are not always corrent), the incidents of abortion because of a threat to the mother’s health or because of a rape/molestation are very, very, very low.
Like, it seems to me that the percentage of abortions for those reasons was in the low single digits.
Let’s even say it was 10%. That means 90% of the rest of abortions performed were a matter of convenience.
That, to me, is mindbogglingly tragic.
Personally, I don’t trust stats of why women get abortions…even from places like the CDC. A major reason is that it’s not manditory for all the states to send their stats for abortion to them. Another reason is how they define abortion, which can vary from goverment to goverment depending if abortion is legalized in that country or not.
I have no idea where you get your stats from when it comes to the reasons why women get abortions, but I want to point out something. If women are reluctant to report their rape to the police, they are most likely reluctant to tell their doctor why they are having an abortion. Putting myself in other women’s shoes, I can understand how a woman would be reluctant to even tell her doctor that she was raped for fear of them calling the police about it when she was reluctant to make a report with them in the first place.
With that said…even if abortion is elective most of the time, at least it takes place a majority of the time before the end of the first trimester. It doesn’t happen late in term (although I would wonder why the hell someone would wait that long to have an elective abortion when the procedure becomes riskier the more you wait9.
[rq=1036008,0,blog][/rq]Welcome to my Journal!
I don’t want anyone to pat my hand over my decisions, especially you, but for you to say something like this:
“Here’s a quote I came across yesterday: having an abortion doesn’t make you un-pregnant; it simply makes you the mother of a dead baby.
Thought you might like that one :-D”
Who would “like that one”?
I don’t think Kaya is feeling a smiling face over that.
I’m not, but obviously you do.
Congrats on your two year old. I wish you and your two year old the best.
But you’re not better than I am for having him/her.
Obviously.
Amber,
I’ve tried to stay out of the whole abortion debate in the comments, not wanting to hijack Kaya’s blog, but I can’t stay silent any more.
First, let me say that I’m prolife, not just prolife but about as extreme as they come. If it were in my power, I’d make all abortions except to prevent the tangible and imminent threat to the mother’s life. I’m also thankful to God that I don’t have that power.
I used to be very in your face about it, and would probably have been an ass towards you 20 years ago. Since then, I’ve discovered something about people who’ve had an abortion (or even have seriously considdered it). They’re people; real people who struggle with their decisions just like everyone else.
I know there are women who’ve used abortion as their method of birth control with nary a thought. But you know, I’ve never met one of them. The women I’ve met who’ve had or almost had abortions have been just like you; someone who was feeling trapped by things they didn’t feel they could handle for whatever reason, be it being too young and scared or too overwhelmed by the repsonsiblities they already had. I’ve come to realise that throwing around platitudes and judgements is just as wrong as I believe the abortion was; maybe worse, since it inflicts a longer lasting pain that may well be deeper than simple death would be.
So, no, I won’t judge you. I won’t hate you and I won’t carelessly inflict insult and mental pain on you. I will say that I’m sorry you found yourself in that place where nothing you do seems like a good thing. If we knew each other personally, I’d talk if you wanted to, and if you indicated an openness to discussion on the subject, I’d share my views and reasons, just as I’d listen to yours.
Take care of you and yours, and take joy in the family you have. God bless.
Dave
Hmm, who might ‘like that one’? Someone who agrees with the sentiment, someone totally pro-life, maybe?
Yes, the quote does make me smile – maybe not a cheese eating grin like the annoying smiley face, but sorry, I don’t know a way to make a ‘sad, hopeful, let’s hear it for the truth, and by the way I really miss you’ smile with the keyboard.
S, you know what I don’t understand and I only thought about later?
You believe abortion makes a dead baby. Yet, you say you believe abortion should be legal.
I do not understand that. Unlike you, I do not believe an early developing fetus is a baby. To me, in the first trimester, it’s just a fertilized egg on its way to becoming a baby but still within a woman’s right to control if she wants to stop it. Which is why I don’t call myself the mother of two dead babies and two live ones. It’s so off the mark to me. (Not to mention I think it’s insulting to women who have actually suffered the anguish of delivering dead babies, but…that’s a diff topic)
But if I thought for a second that a few week old fetus was the same thing as a baby I would *never* support abortion except under extraordinary circumstances.
So believing it’s killing a baby and yet, to think abortion is okay?
That I do not understand.
Dave, you are very kind and generous to say all that to me despite your long held personal beliefs, thank you. :)
Please know that I don’t suffer today over the choices I made years ago. They were difficult, painful choices at the time because, as you say, few women make the decision lightly. Btw, speaking of birth control, I was on birth control both times; first time condom, second time an IUD which had gone too far up inside me and I didn’t know. Like you, I have heard of women who use abortion as birth control but also like you, I’ve never met one.
The truth is, if I went back today, I’d still make the same choices all over again; they were the right ones for me at that time.
But your compassion and understanding, even for someone who doesn’t hold the same beliefs you do, speaks of a good, kind heart and I thank you. :)
When it comes to abortion my political and personal beliefs are completely opposite. Politically, I believe full reproductive rights are an integral part of a free, democratic society, right up there with free speech and the right to marry whomever you choose.
Personally, though, I don’t think it’s ok at all. I truly believe a baby is a divine miracle from the moment of conception. Even when it’s just a small group of cells, it’s the most awesome group of cells ever, something to be treasured even if it wasn’t asked for – at the very least treasured enough to carry to term so someone else can have the miracle of a newborn baby.
Like everyone on both sides of the debate, I have very strong opinions. The only one that makes sense to both of my sides is something has to change, and since it can’t be law, it has to start with society’s attitude.
Thank you for answering me, that does clear it up a bit more. I’m assuming from the way you and Dave write that you both believe in a religion, most likely Christian, and your objections to abortion stems from the belief that birth is a “miracle from God”, etc.
But I don’t believe in that. As the Onion, an online satirical paper headlined once, “Miracle of Birth Happens for 83 Billionth Time”.
The cycle of birth, life then death is just a biological fact to me. There is no “divine” plan expressly meant for me or anyone else, nothing like that. I do believe in God (I won’t get into that, it’s off-topic) but not God as an humanlike deity who decides, or even cares, when we’re supposed to have a baby or not.
No offense meant, just pointing out that we differ greatly in this area.
So this attitude adjustment you talk about, whereas suddenly on day society will understand that all zygotes are holy precious gifts from God and the same thing as a baby and one should never abort because it’s God’s will and all that…that’s never going to work for me. Nor the many millions of people like me who also don’t believe in “miracles” and “divine word of God” or any of that.
And I still don’t understand how you can believe it’s a baby but it’s okay for society to kill them. I mean, I read what you wrote but I can’t see the logic in it.
If you believe it’s a sweet little beautiful divine baby at the moment of conception, then killing it is murder. By supporting the right to abortion in our society you are condemning millions of helpless babies to their deaths.
I mean, *I* don’t feel like that but that’s what you are saying and I don’t understand how you can feel that way.
But then, there’s a lot I don’t understand and the older I get, the more I know I don’t. :)
(Okay, Kaya, I hijacked your comments long enough. ahahaha! I’ll be a Good Girl now and stop. :)
You hijack all you want! I’m rather enjoying the conversation you two are having. It’s incredibly interesting.
Frankly, I can’t say I understand myself any better than you do. I’m a walking box of contradictory opinions and feelings and political beliefs, and sometimes my head hurts trying to make sense of myself.
I don’t know how else to say this, but I *don’t* think abortion is ok. At all. I think the right to abort is a necessary evil, like allowing hate groups to say what they want. The only way to live in a truly free society is allow every single person the exact same rights.
I’m not Christian; I am a polytheistic pagan. I do believe in magic and miracles, believe in them as something that happens every minute of life. The fact that the miracle of birth has happened 83 billion times does not make it any less a miracle. I find that reasoning as illogical as you find mine.
I do understand not everyone feels the same as I about divine babies (and about a thousand others things, it seems), and while I cannot understand that anymore than you can understand me, I have to accept it.
I also want to reiterate what kaya said, about judging and condemning.
If I refused to speak with every person I know who has had an abortion, I’d have 1 person to talk to. Yes, I have to be honest and admit I judge, at times, but I try my very best to never condemn. A bigger truth is I simply try not to think about the staggering number of dead babies, because it makes me want to cry.
Yes, we probably have hijacked enough, but hey, I’ve actually enjoyed the chance to exercise my brain – and the opportunity to hone my thoughts and opinions.
So, here’s another smile, and I hope this one isn’t offensive. It sure isn’t meant to be.
:-D
Frankly, I can’t say I understand myself any better than you do. I’m a walking box of contradictory opinions and feelings and political beliefs, and sometimes my head hurts trying to make sense of myself.
I am the same way. I’m a centrist (without an affliation to any political party..US and Sweden). As I like to think of it…I have left-wing views that clash with those on the far right and right-wing views that clash with those on the far left. Sometimes, I even feel conflicted on certain issues.
While I’m pro-choice, I don’t personally like the idea of me having an abortion unless my life is in danger. My reasonsing is that I don’t want to take out something that I created. I’m a creator in the sense of stories, characters, art, dance routines, and portrayls of characters. To me, creating my own child is the ultimate creation. However, I realize that not every women views her pregnancy like that…especially if she’s childfree (not ever wanting to have kids in the present and the future).
In fact, (as I’m sure I mentioned it earlier in another response), it took me a while to become pro-choice because I had been under the misconception that in order to be pro-choice…you must love abortion and have one yourself. That isn’t the case. Pro-choice is about supporting women to having the option of ALL reproductive choices (not just abortion). Like there are pro-choicers who are personally against abortion for themselves (like moi), you have choicers that are against having children or giving a kid up for adoption.
However, despite how you personally feel about something, the main goal for all choicers is that everyone should have freedom over their own reproductive life without the goverment intervening and saying what’s okay and what’s not. It should be up to each individual.
[rq=1036138,0,blog][/rq]Welcome to my Journal!
“My reasonsing is that I don’t want to take out something that I created. I’m a creator in the sense of stories, characters, art, dance routines, and portrayls of characters. To me, creating my own child is the ultimate creation”
Yes, exactly! Creating a baby is the highest form of art there is :-D
Sugarplum,
I totally get that one can hold to two seemingly contradictory beliefs or opinions. While that’s not the case for me with abortion, it is for evolution/creation. As a conservative Christian, I accept that the world was made in six days about 20,000 years ago. As someone with a mathematical and sceintific mind, I acknowledge that the world is 4.6 billion years old and that life on earth evolved to the current state over millions of years. How can i accept both? I don’t know, other than I know both are true, somehow. I’m sure it’ll all make sense on the other side of eternity. Until then, I’ll just confuse the hell out of my freinds on both sides of the debate.
Dave
regarding “at the very least treasured enough to carry to term so someone else can have the miracle of a newborn baby,” you might be interested in reading this point of view:
http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2009/03/breaking-silence-on-living-pro-lifers.html
whenever this debate comes up, people so often overlook what it must be like to be the woman who gave birth to a baby and then gave it away. everyone is so quick to judge how important the “miracle” is, but no one wants to provide support to women who make the “godly” decision to give a child up for adoption rather than aborting it.
I don’t think it’s overlooked. I cannot imagine the heartache that follows giving a baby up.
I also can’t imagine the heartache that follows abortion. I think both are tragic.
But, what makes someone pro-life is focusing on the baby. Not the mother.
On the tragic scale for the baby? Adoption is less tragic than abortion. Obviously.
I’m aware that adopted kids can have issues. I believe those issues don’t compare to being dead.
As for the mother’s PTSD- it’s sad. It’s regrettable.
And it’s STILL, in my opinion, the right path to take. Making the choice between killing your baby vs. giving your baby away is a no brainer.
To me.
You know what makes that quote so very much right to me? Its because I DO think an aborted fetus is a dead baby.
That’s the core of being pro-life. For me.
I’m not on some religious kick. I’m not out to keep women barefoot and pregnant.
I simply believe with every single cell of my being that a baby is created at the very moment of conception.
I’m sorry the quote is offensive to you. I really really am.
But do you understand how offensive I find abortion to be? That quote is MEANT to be offensive. It’s meant to be in-your-face. Because that’s what we believe.
I see absolutely no difference between an abortion done at 6 weeks and a newborn tossed in a garbage can. No difference whatsoever.
Having said that- something that is maybe being lost in all this heated debating:
There is a difference between condemning an action and condemning a *person*. I can not like or approve of what you did, and still not think that you’re a bad person for having done it. (NOt that my opinion of you is of uber-importance.)
I have three older sisters. All three of them have had abortions at some point in their lives. They don’t feel a single moment of regret over it. I know this because I’ve asked.
I still love them. I’d still go to bat for them. I don’t judge them.
I wish they’d made a different choice. I wonder who or what those babies would have been, even if they don’t.
That’s what makes me pro-life. It’s not a cause I took up out of boredom.
When Jes got pregnant, I knew she’d have the choice to abort. I also knew I’d do whatever I could to present her with other options.
I also knew that if she wanted to abort, I’d take her there, hold her hand, and love her though it.
It IS a choice. A personal choice. But I don’t have to like it.
The pro-choice folks have won the war. I can’t imagine abortion ever becoming illegal.
We pro-life folks are left with trying to win individual battles. It’s all we got.
I am sorry you felt attacked or offended. I am sorry you don’t want to be thought of as a mother of dead babies.
But even without that quote- it’s what I think of ANY woman who has an abortion. To think anything else goes against what I believe.
“I’m sorry the quote is offensive to you. I really really am.”
Well..it’s complicated. I wouldn’t say I was offended, exactly. It wasn’t like I was boo-hooing in the corner, lol. I found it more annoying than anything else. The exacat same feeling I get when someone tells me I’m going to hell because I don’t believe in Jesus, or the same way I feel about any blanket statement I don’t agree with. Any time someone points at me and tells me I’m something or someone I don’t believe for a second I am, it’s more annoying than offensive. More of an eye-roll than an “OH NOES!”
Like when I found out there was a name and concept for what I feel sexually, and at first I made an ass out of myself online for a time by running around to various marriage groups and touting my newfound label I’d embraced. I was told flat out that I was crazy and was told by a whole lotta people that Dan and I would be divorced within the year if we didn’t stop such Dangerous Activities. Yes, I was very naive and this was long before I found blogs or started blogging myself and realized how mainstream tends to view submissive women.
But, in addition to being annoyed by the statement, I kept thinking about the women I’ve known who did deliver dead babies. And I kept thinking how hurt they’d be to read that.
My daughter’s best friend had two die inside her, gave up trying, started the adoption process and was finally given a baby just a few weeks ago (bio-mother is a meth addict, this is the fifth baby she’s given up for adoption so they’re pretty sure her parental rights will be terminated soon and the official adoption will proceed, just like the last four) and I’m so happy for my friend, I cried. But I would never go up to her and say, “You know, you’re the mother of TWO DEAD BABIES and a living one that ISN’T YOUR BIO KID”.
I mean, it’s true, right?
But of course, the statement about dead babies wasn’t made with women like her in mind.
It was meant for women like me who have had abortions. It is meant to be a punishment statement. Like the going to hell thing and all the women who told me I’d be divorced soon for daring to be sub. (Dah-yum! I like that! “Born To Be Wild, Dare To Be Sub” If I ever blog again, I’m using that! lol!)
I don’t like punishment statements, I don’t think they serve their purpose. In the “going to hell” thing, it doesn’t make me want to know more about Jesus and in the “ruin your marriage” thing it didn’t make me want to stop doing what we were doing. Good thing since we’re coming up on 10 years being happily married. :)
What *does* make me stop and reflect are non-finger-pointing discussions. Understanding and sharing various points of views and feelings without trying to hurt one another or shock each other.
Anyway, I’m just rambling. Stream of consciousness. Although I typo’d “Steam of Consciousness” at first, hehe.
That would be a good blog name too. Not that I’m blogging anymore.
I’m content just to spew away here in yer commentz, Kaya. ;P
I’m not sure why you should blame abortion and pro-choice for a mother murdering her baby. If she had an abortion, she wouldn’t have had a baby to murder would she?
Just thought it was an odd association.
I thought this too, but on re-reading it seems to me that kaya was actually blaming the massive outpouring of indifference to the murdered baby on an increase in society’s acceptance of abortion. I’m not sure that’s right either (and I ramble at length about this above) but that was, I think, the general idea.
“I’m not sure why you should blame abortion and pro-choice for a mother murdering her baby. If she had an abortion, she wouldn’t have had a baby to murder would she?”
Exactly! Like I said, I’ve moderated a pro-choice board for three years. I’m currently moderating a pro-choice community on LJ. I’ve been active in this debate for nine to ten years. The majority of choicers I have seen and met would *condemn* what this woman did. Mostly because there are a good amount of choicers that are parents themselves (yeah…I know…it’s hard to imagine a choicer actually have children and there’s not a pre-requisite to have an abortion in order to be pro-choice…and trust me, as a lifer myself once upon a time, I used to believe that).
Once a baby has been born, abortion is a moot issue because there’s no longer a pregnancy. It’s the termination of pregnancy whether induced or spontanous (i.e miscarriage) that results in the death of a fetus.
[rq=981759,0,blog][/rq]Welcome to my Journal!
What gardenfence said.
It was the nonchalant reaction from the readers that I was blaming abortion and pro-choice for.
Not the mother’s actions.
Shrugs… gets out the umbrella again.
When sugarplum made the quote about being the mother of a dead baby thing, while blunt, and perhaps painful for those women who have made that choice… it is on many levels true. I know that most women who chose to terminate a pregnancy carry the weight of that awareness in their hearts. I never once looked at a woman who made that choice and thought she made it lightly.
In my perfect world, young people would have access to knowledge, resources and attitudes that make unplanned pregnancy almost a nonissue. The few failures of birth control would not be stigmatized and adoption a respected and easy option. And in a perfect world… there would be no stretchmarks. (we needed to lighten up a little)
I love how supportive you are of your daughter, and I’m really impressed by how brave she is. There are a lot of parents, even if they don’t disapprove, who don’t, or don’t know how, to make their children feel safe and comfortable with their sexuality. Even if Am isn’t ready for a fight, her openness is incredible and unusual, and I’m sure your approval and encouragement makes that possible.
When i was in high school (a long time ago), i had to do a senior project, where i did lots of research, learned some crap, and then needed a physical product. for example, some people made quilts, guitars, model cars and airplanes, etc. Others did less tangible things like outlining projects to improve a town’s emergency services. I wanted to research the higher suicide rates among queer teens compared to straight teens, and for a “physical product” i wanted to start a support group (a GSA, as theyre called now) in my school. at the time they’d just gotten a project off teh ground offering support to all kinds of kids (children of divorced parents, children of alcoholics, children who ARE alcoholics, children who’ve lost a parent, etc), so i thought a GLBT group would be useful.
my advisor told me no. To make a long story short, i asked everyone over her head all the way up to the superintendent and they ALL gave me the same line of shit: “we don’t have gay students in this school. we don’t need that kind of group.” (this was right after i came out to them as bisexual.)
i said “fuck you” and i started a support group in the largest city nearby and advertised it widely. it was hugely successful (and is still meeting weekly to this day, so many years later). i got a unitarian church to host it rent-free since it was a youth group, and some of the adults who volunteered to be facilitators helped with some of the more complicated stuff. but a barebones GSA will fall together if your daughter still wants it to happen.
it sucks doing it in a rural area (i know– i went to high school in rural new england), but it’s DOABLE and it’s definitely needed.
i can give you my “vanilla” email addy (if you’d like) if there’s any info i can provide. but seriously, if she’d like a GSA, she should do it, and she shouldn’t let a homophobic school stop her.
she’s lucky to have a gf, though. when i figured out my sexual orientation in high school, everyone was horrified. only decades later are some of them coming up to me and saying “i was so jealous that you were so confident in your sexuality. i just figured out that i like women too! i wish i’d figured it out sooner!”
Good for Am.
I’ll mention to her the idea of having it somewhere else.
I know there was a reason why she wanted it at the school, but maybe she needs to shift her goals a little bit. I guess it depends on what’s more important to her.
Certainly if she wants to go ahead with it, I’ll get in touch with you. Thank you!