A child’s justice — that the world be as one wishes it for oneself.
It used to be that women had no choice in their lot in life. A woman had to agree to serve, honor, and obey a man.
Women had all been brought up to believe that our role and purpose in life was to please men and look after them and their children, and to put their needs ahead of our own. There was a clear, unspoken expectation that we would derive our satisfaction in life by getting married, and thereafter living our lives vicariously through our husbands, supporting them, sharing their triumphs, subjugating our hopes and dreams to theirs and exchanging our sexual and domestic services in return for their financial support. Psychiatric theory at the time assumed there was something wrong with a woman if she wasn’t perfectly adjusted to marriage and motherhood, because getting married and having children was thought to be a naturally fulfilling state for all women. (From: here.
There is no question that the women who fought and sacrificed to erase that expectation are to be commended. There is no argument that the Women’s Liberation Movement needed to occur.
But the assumption that all women wanted this liberation is insane. To claim that all women were stifled under the oppression, that all women resented being forced into that domestic role, is pure propaganda. There were, there ARE still, many women who thrive on, and choose to be, domestic, “oppressed”, feminine souls.
It’s come full circle. Women worked so hard to ensure a choice, to create opportunities, to secure that their sisters and daughters and granddaughters would not be boxed into something that they *had* to be defined merely by their gender. Only to come to find out that they’ve been boxed just as deeply into something else entirely. Under the name of fighting to secure choices, the only choice acceptable to the masses is the choice of independence and strength.
Oh people want to say that’s not true. People want to say “your choices are fine! Live how you want. It’s a free country!” But that’s followed up with the warning to keep those choices quiet. “Keep your (shameful) choices under the rug where no one else has to see them. Do not, under any circumstances, voice that opinion of yours. After all, we don’t want our daughters to actually SEE you living like that! We don’t want to influence them *your* way. Only *my* way. Not yours. Yours isn’t wrong, I didn’t say *that* exactly, it’s just.. not right.”
What are they afraid of? That we who choose to live in a traditional role are going to turn the tide our way again? We’re going to somehow cause a return of the oppressed woman? Now isn’t *that*an insult to women’s intelligence everywhere.
The women on the forefront of the liberation movement were subject to intense name-calling. Bra-burners, dykes, unhappy bunch of lesbians with chips on their shoulders, man-haters. They were accused of destroying the foundation of society, ruining families. Now, we get called names. Under-achievers, lazy, ignorant, traitors, weak, doormats. We are accused of poisoning the minds of young girls everywhere.
Women have every ’right’ to be completely outraged when they become aware of the kind of outright and subtle oppression they suffer and that their sisters throughout the world suffer. They have every ’right’ to be outraged at the indifference of men to their plight, their willingness to reap advantages until it is no longer possible. But just as might does not make right, nor does right make right. That is, one does not then have the right to play the same game with the tables turned. If one does this, one is playing society’s game, for that is what this society is all about: absorption is its game. (From: here)
The reaction given to those of us who like our choices, who live our choices with pride and confidence, the discrimination we experience from society these days? You’ve become that which you fought so hard to destroy. Why is it not okay for my opinion to exist just as strongly as yours? Most of us who *choose* to live in a traditional role are well aware of the prices paid for that choice. We’re grateful for, and thankful to have, the freedom to make that choice. As such, we return that gratitude in kind to our own children, raising them with full knowledge of the choices waiting them when they reach adulthood. Making them aware of why they have that choice, and hopefully, assuring them that whatever choice they make for their own personal happiness is not one to be ashamed of. Not anymore. Not in this day.
Though I am not so sure of that now. Shame is assigned. And that’s sad.
There’s an article I’d urge anyone with an interest in this to read, if you haven’t already. It’s long, but it’s well written, and from a woman who was accomplished and successful.
(If you choose not to read it, I’m going to quote the last paragraph for you anyway.)
Remember this: The strongest sign of the decay of a nation is the feminization of men and the masculinization of women. It is notable that in Communist nations women are exhorted, and compelled, to do what has traditionally been men’s work. American women, some of them, feel triumphant that they have broken down the “barricades” between the work of the sexes. I hope they will still feel triumphant when some commissar forces a shovel or an axe into their soft hands and compels them to pound and cut forests and dig ditches. I hope they will be “happy” when a husband deserts them and they must support their children and themselves alone. (After all, if a woman must be “free” she shouldn’t object to men being free too, should she?”) I hope they will feel “fulfilled” when they are given no more courtesies due to their sex, and no kindnesses, but are kicked aside on the subways and buses by men, and jostled out of the way by men on busy sidewalks and in elevators. I hope that no man will extend mercy to them because of obvious pregnancies, but will rudely tell them that that is no excuse to shirt a day’s heavy labor, and they should be like Russian women. I hope they will be proud when some court demands that they support “delicate” husbands for a lifetime, and pay alimony. I hope, when they look in their mirrors, that they will be pleased to see exhausted and embittered faces, and that they will be consoled by their paychecks.
The decay and the ruin of a nation has always lain in the hands of its women. So does its life and strength, its reverence for beauty, its mercy and kindness. And, above all, its men.
One more article and then I think I’m done with this subject.
What the Women’s Liberation Movement has done for me.
Women’s lib has made America label the stay-at-home mom as an underachiever. Women’s lib has made marriages disposable now. After all, if we’re spending all of our time working on that high-powered career, who has time to work on a marriage? Good marriages don’t just happen. When you and your husband both work 50 hours a week, there is precious little time to work on keeping your marriage together. What if I don’t want “it all”? What if I don’t want a Burger King breakfast on my way to dropping my son off at daycare? What if I don’t want a grande mochachino in the car on my way to my high-powered job that leaves me too exhausted to share quality time with my family at the end of the day? What if I don’t want to microwave frozen dinners for me and my husband before we retreat to our respective corners of the bed to sleep a couple hours before we start another grueling day? Why do I have to have a career AND a family? Why can’t my home and family BE my career? Whoever defined “it all” anyway? Some whacked-out women’s libber who hates women – that’s who! What if I want to enjoy a home brewed cup of coffee in the morning while Regis and Kelly banter and my son coos in the background? What if I want to starch my own shirts? What if I want to throw a tennis ball around for my dog to enjoy? What if I want to bake the perfect 5-layer lasagna for dinner and prepare fresh cannoli for dessert? What if I want to be at home at 6pm to bathe my son, read him a story and tuck him into bed? What if I want to cuddle on the couch with my husband at the end of the day? I consider “having it all” to be having a comfortable, clean home, a happy marriage that lasts “until death do us part” and happy, healthy children. Unfortunately, between Hillary Clinton and all those other woman-hating chicks, my desire to be a homemaker is suddenly suspect and America wonders what is so wrong with me that I would want to remove myself from the world in such a way. Well listen, if my being a homemaker makes me happy, causes my marriage to last more than the average 7 years and is responsible for raising a gentleman who will remove his hat when he enters a building and step aside for a mother and child then I’ve done my part in making the world a better place. In fact, maybe our world would be a better place if women who wanted careers had them and weren’t made to feel guilty for not having children and women who wanted to have children weren’t made to feel bad about not having careers. I don’t believe I’ve ever heard a man criticize a woman for being a stay-at-home mother but I’ve seen that same woman have to defend herself to other women. Maybe it is time for us women to stop being our own worst enemies.
It is possible to have a personal belief and hold that belief only to yourself. It is possible to want something for yourself and not make it anyone else’s reality. My preference runs my life, and my life only. I have to wonder why some of you are so insecure in your opinions, in your children’s future, that you attack my opinions so vehemently. I am not worried that your opinion will influence my child, nor my life, nor my future. I don’t feel the need to protect my children from the knowledge that other opinions, other choices, other beliefs exist. I believe in the success of the women’s rights movement. I believe that choices will remain. And I’m confident that they are smart enough and confident enough to do as I did – choose for themselves, decide upon their own beliefs and live happily.
Should that choice be to run a company or to run for president, I’ll support them as much as my own beliefs allow. After that, I expect their own beliefs will carry them, just as mine did.
“It is not he who reviles or strikes you who insults you, but your opinion that these things are insulting.”
~cunt
Tags: opinions, women's lib
Uncategorized | kaya | 
Tuesday April 1st, 2008 10:14am
I got strong feelings on all this.
First off I happen to LOVE being a quietly oppressed feminine soul. I love doing the housework, child rearing and such. Its only just recently that I have worked outside the home. I do like the freedom of seeing others and having some time to be social but I miss being home when the kids get off the bus, cooking a meal every night and the feelig I get when I accomplished my huge list of tasks that needed to be preformed every day.
But on the flip side, I love my paycheck and I love the time I spend away to be myself and let my hair down so to speak. Though, coming home to see nothing has been done takes the polish off my shiny happy attitude most days.
I’d much rather stay home and be who I’ve been for the last 6 yrs but I can’t. Reality called and told me I needed a job to contribute money to the household. I answered and got a job. Now, I have more money to do the things I like and spoil my kids abit. Funny how that worked out.
If I was given a choice, I would gladly be dressed in comfy clothes all day and run errands, clean the house, tend the kids and dogs and work in my yard (but for now I only have dirt, no seed is set yet). I would eagerly embrace making my new home and yard beautiful and watch as the family enjoys what I’ve done. As it stands now, I am supposed to be working part time (but I get well over 30 hrs aweek) and still doing 90% of the housework. I am EXHAUSTED when I come home but damn if I don’t love the feeling of satisfaction that goes with it.
I respect all women that work and take care of the home. I respect and envy the women that don’t work outside the home and make their families whole. I respect those women that work full time and are the many money getter in their houses as well. You all rock. You are all fabulous in your own way, but kindly do NOT dis on those of us that aren’t like you.
I’ll take my oppression with a side of bondage please, hold the judgement. Matter of fact, make mine a double.
(Now I have to go get ready to work, damn it all)
You’ve hit it squarely again.
The essence of feminism is (or was originally conceived as, at least) the freedom to choose. That is, the freedom of women to choose their destinies instead of being forced to adhere to a single standard.
But when the more radical feminist ideas lambast women choosing to be housewives and stay-at-home moms, they create an atmosphere where women do not feel free to choose their destinies and instead feel forced to adhere to a single standard.
Only the dancers have changed; the tune remains the same.
You are so right Roger. I think the initial feminists would turn in their graves if they saw what the movement has turned into. The most vocal, strident feminists of today are doing exactly what men were accused of doing back then. They aren’t giving women choices. They are telling women that there are certain things they cannot do without setting the movement back. I say *they* are setting the movement back.
Because the feminist movement was about giving women choices. It wasn’t about forcing women to vote, it was about giving them the right to. It wasn’t about making women work outside the home, it was giving them the option.
I love my career, absolutely love what I do. And that’s my choice, just as it’s your choice, Kaya, or anyone else’s, to stay at home if they so wish, or to work and have a family if that’s what they want.
Thank you kaya. To assume that all women must want the same things is insane. There are many many brands of feminism too, and I think a lot of people tend to forget that. Radical feminism, liberal feminism, environmental feminism, man-hating feminism etc etc. To assume even that all people who call themselves “feminist” want the same thing is crazy too.
I have been somewhat “ashamed” that I have chosen to live the life of a housewife, homemaker and mom solely. After all, I have an advanced degree – I guess I am wasting my mind. I know that is what a lot of my former colleagues think of me. It really bothers me that now a days, when a woman makes the choice to serve her husband and family she is made out to be betraying all of womankind. And, it seems from the comments here, that if we aren’t comfortable with women doing exactly what a man has typically done we must be betraying all women too.
Being a liberated woman should mean having the choice to live, act and THINK as we choose, and to have the freedom to voice those opinions without fear of retribution from those who do not think like us.
Well said. Very, very well said. This is pretty much the same thing I’ve been saying for years, only you said it much better. :)
I agree with most everything you said. I think, however, that the tides are changing. Domestic life is becoming the choice for a lot of young mothers who can afford it.
I agree that Women’s lib had to happen but it did a lot of damage for women who choose not to live that way. I wrote something similar about how for some women the result of women’s lib is that most people are forced to have a two or three income household, don’t get to raise their kids, and families are falling apart because the parents aren’t home.
I don’t work and I don’t have kids. I stay home because I don’t like working and luckily, we’re fixed financially so that I don’t have to. This is my choice.I don’t consider myself particularly oppressed or hung out to dry by society for making this choice. I feel liberated in my kitchen. I am happy that I can make the choice.
I’m an unconventional feminist, especially for my age I think. I’m not ranty and I don’t hate men. I believe that by staying home because it is my choice to do so, I’m expressing a feminist value of choice. I don’t consider any human being inferior to another based on immutable factors of birth. I believe that women and men are different, natural roles exist and those natural roles do not declare inferiority or superiority. They indicate difference and possibly propensity for success in areas naturally. Women are often better at parenting and house keeping. Men are often more suited for bringing home the money. That, to me, is the same as saying tall people are better at basketball and people with dark skintones don’t get sunburned as easily.
I was raised in a different culture. My mother and Mother/Aunties and my Father had different roles in the family. He was the breadwinner and the women kept the house. He didn’t consider them inferior to himself. He considered them equal and valuable but suited for home roles and subservient by choice. If they had not wanted to stay home he would have encouraged them to take work that suited their abilities and personalities and talents because he considered them capable of anything, but more suited for a select type of employment.
I think that you said before that your sense of inferiority of women was ingrained. My sense of equality of all people is equally ingrained. Because of those beliefs, we might always be at odds when it comes to the supremacy of men and the inferiority of women, but luckily, we don’t have to agree on every point to be friends. We don’t have to agree to respect the rights of one another to have opinions.
Kitten
English as a second language strikes again.
“We don’t have to agree to respect the rights of one another to have opinions.”
Should be something more like
“We don’t have to agree with one another to respect the right we each have to our own opinions”
Great post!!
I have said, quite long ago to my brother that i do think i would be quite happy living in the 50′s and staying home to take care of my husband,kids, pets and the house.
I think being a single parent sucks ass. I think doing it all alone is for the freaking birds. (also sucks that my Master cannot be here with me – one day i’ll go home)
I would much rather be there to do just what they did in the 50′s. Work if he wants me to get out of the house but otherwise take good care of him and the kids.
I do think that we took a step back somehow. The expectations of us are so very high now that some of them are quite unobtainable.
……………. does not help that i was told i was not considered for a promotion of sorts today (going to Mexico to help launch a new program) BECAUSE i was a single mom. Nothing in writing as the position was not offered to me to refuse. Just that they wanted me but didnt select me because of that status. THAT bites…………
I think it’s so sad that these days it seems like it’s not possible to be a stay-at-home mom and a feminist if that’s what you want to do. My mother was both until she chose to go back to work. She’s the person who raised me as the person I am in a lot of ways. She’s definitely the person who gave me the feeling that feminism was about choice, no matter what that choice ends up being.
I certainly consider myself a feminist, but I’m likely to end up a housewife as a combination of what I want to do (I’d love to stay at home and be a stay-at-home mom if my master and I choose to have kids) and partially due to health reasons. I certainly have friends who want to be housewives. My feeling is that as long as they’re happy with what they do and they’re doing it by choice, then it’s a good thing. This is, of course, also how I’ve explained the fact that I’m a feminist slave and the fact that while I’m mainly attracted to women, I’ve ended up with a male master/love of my life. They’ve all accepted it. For a couple of my friends it’s even helped them start to reconcile their submissive sides to what they grew up believing.
Personally, I think those who are so rabid about feminism to claim that it’s inappropriate for someone who is a stay at home mom give feminists a bad name. Luckily, I do thing the tide is starting to change among people my age (I’m 23) so that many young women now are choosing happily to be housewives and others are seeing that as a perfectly valid decision. Even within the 6 years it’s taken me to do my undergrad (at a very liberal women’s college) I’ve seen people become more accepting of feminism really being about choice whatever that may be.
I still consider myself a serious feminist, but… I’ve gotten really, really disillusioned with it. “Feminism” encompasses so many different thoughts [I'm in college and immersed in it in several classes + my own experience], and so many of those thoughts are just absurd–like, straight women are traitors, porn is evil, women who stay at home are traitors, men are evil, etc.–and feminists generally seem to be attacking each other or other women [or maybe maligning the male half of the species sometimes], rather than actually getting anything accomplished. It’s pitiful, and I’m sorry you have to feel like you’re being attacked.
On the flip side, most of the male doms I’ve encountered seem to think it’s cute or silly that I call myself a feminist–and some remain dumbfounded when I lose interest because they tell me they are misogynistic. No, I don’t agree with everything said in the name of feminism, and yes, I am a submissive because it makes me happy. I would think that ought to be a simple enough explanation, but these days I think people can’t understand the simple and obvious anymore.
Anyways, don’t let them get you down. You’re trying to find a piece of happiness like anyone else, but your journey to it just happens to be way more interesting than most!
I think this was a very thought provoking post. I’d really like to add something more insightful, but pretty much everything has already been said. I’ll just add that I love being under my Daddy’s thumb. I’m one of the ones that want to be “oppressed”
very interesting post *smiles*
I have never commented before, but I just had to comment on this post.
Kaya, thank you.
I am in a ‘traditional marriage’, HOH, Domestic Discipline, submission, and all of that good stuff. I am so tired of liberal feminists, including some of my friends, only supporting choice as long as it is a feminist and liberal choice. As a result, my lifestyle choice is not out in the open. I agree with your observation that society has been reversed in a way, so much so that couples in traditional marriages are forced to hide away like the couples in liberal marriages were forced to do not long ago. it’s so frustrating.
Again, thank you Kaya.
Very well said kaya, thank you.
Gosh. I thought all this stuff was kind of old hat, honestly. In a little pocket of the world where women who stay home with their kids are called ‘professional homemakers’ without a trace of irony or disrespect – dude, homemaking’s a profession, that’s all the words mean – and the same phrase is used equally for the stay-at-home men because it’s appropriately unbiased on account of gender… I dunno. I thought the screaming battle between women who work outside the home and those who work inside it about whose job is ‘better’ was over.
I thought the screaming battle between women who work outside the home and those who work inside it about whose job is ‘better’ was over.
I honestly don’t see that as the battle of the past few postings. If I were to compare the two, I would say it’s ‘better’ and more meaningful to be working inside the home, rather than having to do both jobs. I have to wonder if I’m the only one who is constantly stressed and not as effective in my life, from doing both full-time jobs? Please don’t read this wrong – I do my best at both, but certainly not as well as I could if focused on only doing the in-home job. It’s what I *have* to do for now, not so much what I *choose* to do. I think I’d make a much better June Cleaver (complete with the pearls).
Trust me, the comments against working mothers (we must be ‘greedy’ and only interested in material things – when in fact the cost of basic necessities drives most women to work) are just as nasty and hurtful as the belittling of women who work only in the home. My point, I guess, is that it always looks greener on the other side.
I’m not sure I was completely understood, which is not to say I disagree with or am troubled by what you’ve replied. ;) I’m not sure it /does/ look greener on the other side. I chose to work outside the home; Tess chose to work inside it (mostly). I don’t think either way is ‘better’ and the notion of arguing one is better than the other blows my mind. There’s so much to argue about; why should we trouble ourselves with differences of perspective?
From my POV, a sensible feminist perspective would be that any person, regardless of gender, should have the right to choose to work within the home, outside the home, or both (some people supposedly do want to do both, though I don’t know any of those… I only know people who do both out of necessity).
In fact I don’t think that’s a feminist view at all. I think it’s an equalist view for a healthy working society. And I guess, in my little pocket of the world, I thought this was a majority view. You choose for yourself, not for other people, how and where you want to work, as best as you can.
I am one of your lurkers, never really post, but wanted to comment on this topic.
I agree with most of what you all have been saying. Feminism was all about giving woman the right to choose a career outside the home, or to choose to be a stay at home wife and mother, and it has over time morphed into something that it initally was not meant to be.
A number of people mentioned the backlash that women who choose to stay at home face from those who have choosen to have careers, I think that women who choose to have a career outside the home face the same backlash from those who have chosen to stay at home.
A good example of this is from one of the earlier comments where Theresa, said…”I respect all women that work and take care of the home. I respect and envy the women that don’t work outside the home and make their families whole.”
I think the addition of ‘whole’ to her second sentence is interesting. To me this implies that for families where the women is working outside the home they are not complete or whole, and a family where the woman is working outside the home can never be ‘whole’. That attitude offends me.
I am currently in law school, and plan on working and having kids. To be told because I have chosen a career, means that my family will not be whole, or that my family will only be whole, if I stay home is just as offensive to me, as it is for you to be told that you are setting back the woman’s movement by choosing to be a stay at home mom.
(Theresa, please don’t view this as an attack, merely an illustration of the point that I’m trying to make. :)!)
Your family is what you make it.
Perhaps the issue here is the meaning behind the word “whole”. I took Theresa’s statement to mean “whole” as in time and attention and ability to devote themselves “wholly”. And I think you take to mean incomplete, or flawed, broken.
I think people forget that I’ve actually had a job before. I *was* a working mom for many years, and I can tell you from that experience, my family was NOT “whole”(based on how I’m interpreting her use of the word).
That’s not an insult or an attempt to belittle your choices. It’s a statement of fact.
It will be as whole as you can make it, yes. I agree with that. For us, we made it be the best it could be. Circumstances demanded that I work so there was no other option. But having the benefit now of comparing those years against my present situation, I assure you, a lot was missed. Both from me and from the kids.
There is just no way to stretch yourself that thin. Something, somewhere, will get less of you. Either the kids because you are busy at work, or work because you are busy with the kids. Or the husband because you are busy with work AND the kids. Or work, the kids, and the husband because of the house. It’s like trying to frost a cake with half a can of frosting. Either one part gets it all, or every part gets a little.
And there is nothing wrong with giving every piece as much as you have to give. Just because your time will be divided more than a stay-at-home mom’s time is isn’t going to make her family more secure or more successful than yours.
It will be, as you said, what you make it.
Just because your time will be divided more than a stay-at-home mom’s time is isn’t going to make her family more secure or more successful than yours.
Thank you for that. It is what we make it. I just resent the implication (NOT by you…not at all by you, because as you have stated, you’ve been here. You KNOW that it’s not always a choice) that working full-time and raising kids and handling the housework, etc etc etc., is not always what a woman wants to do. The common comment that I hear (from those who have been able and have wanted to be stay-at-home moms) is that someone else is raising my kids. I usually respond with someone along the lines of “The learning center my children attended prepared them well for school. It’s too bad they’re being held back from what they could learn by waiting for your kids to catch up.” I know it’s not ALWAYS a fair statement, but neither is the raising-of-my-kids statement.
Ok I think I got sidetracked again. (sorry) Again, thank you for a great post and awesome feedback to the comments you receive.
Grrr….
Of course this…
I just resent the implication (NOT by you…not at all by you, because as you have stated, you’ve been here. You KNOW that it’s not always a choice) that working full-time and raising kids and handling the housework, etc etc etc., is not always what a woman wants to do.
Should say…
I just resent the implication (NOT by you…not at all by you, because as you have stated, you’ve been here. You KNOW that it’s not always a choice) that working full-time and raising kids and handling the housework, etc etc etc., IS always what a woman wants to do.
I was so happy when I was reading this. I’m currently attending college to become a psychologist. That’s what I tell people I want to be now. But what I really mean, is I want to be a psychologist until I get married and have kid and god (and money) willing then I want to quit and stay home with my children and cook and cook and clean and be lil miss housewife. I used to tell people that and the looks I got from my female friends quickly killed that.
I was actually kind of disappointed in myself for changing my actions so quickly. But I guess it’s just a matter of willingly getting hurt. I tell the truth to those who matter to me and they usually accept it.
It was really nice to read about someone who doesn’t think that being a stay at home mom is somehow less important/fulfilling/resposible then being a career woman.
I hope that all makes sense. I’m a little scattered today with finals approaching.
wow.
I’ve been reading your journal for several years, but I’m sorry to say that I think this will be the last post that I will read.
I disagreed with you about the woman-for-president, but fine, it’s your blog, your opinion, etc etc.
However, today’s venomous and really hurtful tirade against, oh right, “whacked-out women’s libber(s) who hate women” is so inflammatory, so full of judgement of other people’s lives and other people’s choices, that I don’t think I can come back to this place again. I used to see your journal about an interesting place where people who followed different life paths could meet and learn about each other, but… well, either I was wrong or something has changed.
My mother was a stay at home mom — raised us all, cooked for us, baked birthday cakes from scratch — until the day my father left her for his secretary and refused to ever pay child support. And you say — or, quote someone else saying — that women who ask for equality are asking for communists to subjugate them and for their men to desert them (huh?).
I doubt you will notice or care about the loss of a reader, but I am saddened by this, Tess. This level of name-calling and mud-slinging is beneath you.
Ditto. I’ve always agreed with your ‘my blog, my opinion’ stance — and admired your ability to take it without vitriol, ignorance, or attacks.
You must be reading different feminisms than I read. (And I notice you don’t quote any of THEM here — which leads me to wonder if you are responding to stereotypes rather than actual exposure — and we all know how we feel about that….)
I TEACH women’s studies in college. If any of my students attacked, belittled or shamed another because of her choices about career/domesticity/motherhood/etc., she would be cut off immediately — BECAUSE feminism IS about creating choices for women and respecting the real choices that real women make. (And you make the distinction between ‘choice’ and ‘forced oppression’ yourself — though don’t seem to recognize that feminists might also make it.)
It’s a little confusing and a little alienating to be so blatantly attacked, with stereotypes, no less, when you spend so much time objecting to this very behavior.
We have made different choices about our lives. This doesn’t make me wrong, bad, crazy, angry, or oppressive, any more than it does you. It makes me different from you.
But at least I’m clear that, here, in this space, I am all of those things, and will be told so with name-calling and ad hominem attacks that spew odd stereotypes.
I’m sad and disappointed. I’ve enjoyed your witty writing and keen insights sometimes, as well as your heretofore non-judgmental approach. :(
“It’s a little confusing and a little alienating to be so blatantly attacked, with stereotypes, no less,”
Ya think? Try getting this two and three hundred times a month. You’re disgusted after a post or two. I’m disgusted after a couple hundred.
I am not a teacher, I am not an expert in anything, I am not out to educate a single damn person. I write whatever it is that I am thinking and feeling at the time that I sit my ass down at the keyboard, which could very well be something entirely different than yesterday, and at odds with by tomorrow. Whether or not anyone agrees with, likes it, dislikes it, takes offense to it, or thinks I’m a stupid bitch.
Contrary to a few remarks I am not making any money off this blog. It *costs* me money. I pay it because I like having this place, away from livejournal, where I can do what I want. So I’m not operating under any sort of “the customer is always right” creed, nor do I have to keep the readers happy or risk losing business. Y’all aren’t my income.
“I doubt you will notice or care about the loss of a reader,”
No, I won’t notice whether you read or comment anymore. I wouldn’t notice if 500 people never came back. I care, but not enough to change how, or what, I write.
“This level of name-calling and mud-slinging is beneath you.”
First of all – Why? Why do I always have to be held to such a higher fucking standard? I’m sure somewhere you will find that perfect blogger. It ain’t me. Sorry.
Second – Where did I name-call or mud-sling?
“You must be reading different feminisms than I read”
I don’t read ANY feminists. Yesterday I googled woman’s lib, found a couple of interesting posts, and quoted them. What made them interesting to me was because here are some people who see things to an extreme that even superceded *me*. The complete opposite of everything I’d been getting blasted with in the comments and the emails and such. It was more like, well gee, if you think *I’m* bad, read THIS SHIT. That’s it. If you all want to pretend that I wrote it or that I agree wholeheartedly with it or whatever.. go ahead. There is always going to somebody who is so busy looking for something to be offended at that they can’t listen.
The only reason it’s turned into this huge fucking bullshit debate is because I tried to answer a question *that I was asked* and people didn’t like my answer. Typical. Ask and then complain about the reply. What the fuck ever.
No. I’m not sorry that I’ve proven myself to be less than what you wanted me to be. Not at all.
This is why your blog is one that I always read kaya. You are always straight-forward and say exactly what you think. I love it!
I stayed home with my kids for many years, completely financially dependant on my husband; doing all the cooking shopping childcare, my husband just coming home and eating food I placed in front of him. Even now, he always drives the car, I always bathe the kids etc etc. He has never scrubbed a floor or cleaned a bathroom, I have never mowed the grass. I never felt that was a conflict with feminism, though, nor anything to protect kids from seeing. Its personal choice, it works for us, and we’ve been happily married about a dozen years.
I am sorry if you have felt attacked here, and I also promise this wil be my last comment. But if you think my concerns were motivated by some kind of problem with traditional marriage or gender roles chosen by consenting adults you’ve really misunderstood.
Nelle
Women’s lib has made America label the stay-at-home mom as an underachiever
This whole argument makes no sense to me. I am in my mid-forties and have been a feminist for as long as I remember. Most of my friends, both male and female, are also feminists. My older sister, who is also a feminist, stayed home with her daughter, cooked out of Martha Stewart, and ran her daughter’s brownie troop. When her daughter started school, she went back to work. I really can’t think of *anyone* that I know who has cricitized anyone who has the means to stay home and not work. Usually, the response to someonw choosing to leave the workforce for any reason is a heartfelt “How wonderful for you!” I know people, many feminists included, who have left the workforce for many reasons, to raise children, to pursue various passions, to take care of elderly parents, or to just take a break from it all. But, not everyone can *choose* to leave the workforce…
Why blame feminism (“women’s lib”?), like the author of the last article? Nobody can make you uncomfortable with your own choices but yourself.
I should add, too, that I think that the family should be consulted about someone’s decision to work or not work. My boyfriend’s ex-wife unilaterally decided to not work very much, and he was never OK with that — not only because it was much harder to get by financially, but because she had a lot of talents that she didn’t use.
oh .. and they had no kids.
OK, now I’m done! :)
If I went back into the comments here (if I had that kind of time) from various entries I’ve made discussing Master’s preference to have me at home, I could quote you the various insults I’ve received. Things like “being JUST a mom”, “doing a disservice to my daughters”, “too ignorant to hold down a job”, “too lazy”, “sponging off my husband”.. that’s just a few that I remember.
And that’s just here. I hear the same from family and friends. If you haven’t seen or heard it in your circle, that’s wonderful. I do agree that it’s coming around to a more even keel where stay-at-home or career choices are *less* of an issue. But it most definitely is not gone. If it were, articles and posts like this wouldn’t be around. *shrug*
I think it’s getting better kaya, but it’s still not there yet. I doubt it will ever get there, but hopefully we can get closer to not judging people for the choices people make in life.
I’m happy for those who haven’t dealt with it firsthand in their family. I can’t say the same for my family though. All my cousin ever wanted to do was be a housewife and have kids. She got really good grades in high school and went to college because it was expected. Halfway through she decided to quit and do what she wanted. My grandmother told my cousin she would ruin her life by dropping out of college and getting married!!! Excuse me? She had my cousin in tears. I told my cousin that she could always tell my grandmother that if that’s how she feels, she didn’t have to come to the wedding. (It’s the bitch in me, what can I say? lol.)
Actually, as someone who works and doesn’t have kids, I’m usually trying very hard to find a way to ask someone how they spend their days without implying that they must be working at a traditional job, etc. I never seem to get it right (and if you have any suggestions, I’d love to hear them). The last time that I messed it up was just a couple weeks ago, asking a male fellow student in a music class what he did for a living. Turns out that he was a stay-at-home dad!
Do you mind if i link to this in my LJ? This was just awesome and i hope to show a few on the friends list if you dont mind!
Awesome post girly!
Of course you can. :-)
LMAO you crack me up Tess. I mean really.
I think Scott needs to take some serious control of you, before your behavior ends up making him look REALLY bad. Seriously he deserves better. He works SO hard to take care of your and YOUR kids. I KNOW how hard he works.
slave? Hardly! You are the farthest thing from a slave. A cunt, yes. A vile, nasty, immature, woman hating cunt.
At least Scott’s got his name for you right.
Ick. You make me sick. But I like reading you. It’s like a train wreck waiting to happen. I like watching that part a lot, I admit.
“…A vile, nasty…cunt.” That’s just yummy, actually.
anonymous, your admission tells us a lot about YOU. Go be icked out, inadequate & jealous somewhere else.
mmmmmm, kaya. Vile and nasty. Delish! ;)
~magpie
Damn, I knew someone would yank my ass out of lurking mode ….
Hey, anonymous, why not post your link, so we can come watch *your* trainwreck? I’m not a betting woman, usually … but I’d bet good money you probably have AMTRAK on your forehead.
Wow. That’s one of the most immature posts I’ve seen in a long time. Do you feel better now that you anonymously slammed someone? Don’t worry, I seriously doubt anyone will take you seriously.
good. glad they won’t. doesn’t matter to me. I say what I feel. Period.
Dude, it always cracks me up when an anonymous troller shows up more than once. Obviously the whole point was to get a reaction.
I think Scott needs to take some serious control of you,(( SO THIS MEANS I AM NOT A GOOD MASTER/DOM BECAUSE I DON’T HAVE SERIOUS CONTROL…HUH…)) before your behavior ends up making him look REALLY bad ((I ENJOY HER BEHAVIOR AND ENCOURAGE IT. I ALSO ENCOURAGE HER TO POST FREELY HERE AND TO SPEAK HER MIND AND I MOSTLY AGREE WITH THE MAJORITY OF THE STUFF SHE SAYS)). Seriously he deserves better(( I AM GOING TO ASSUME THAT YOU ARE THE BETTER????)). He works SO hard to take care of your and YOUR kids. I KNOW how hard he works.((HOW HARD DO I WORK??? I AM SURE MY FELLOW COWORKERS WOULD SAY OTHERWISE.))
slave? Hardly! You are the farthest thing from a slave. A cunt, yes. A vile, nasty, immature, woman hating cunt. ((KAYA/TESS AND I ALREADY DISCUSSED THIS. SHE IS A SLAVE, MY KIND OF SLAVE. SHE IS WHAT I WANT AND HOW I WANT HER. MAYBE NOT UP TO YOUR STANDARDS, BUT SHE’S UP TO MINE))
At least Scott’s got his name for you right. ((YES, I THINK HER NAME FITS HER WELL, SHE IS MY CUNT))
Ick. You make me sick. But I like reading you. It’s like a train wreck waiting to happen. I like watching that part a lot, I admit.((SO ARE YOU MALE OR FEMALE, AND SINCE YOU KNOW US SO WELL, WHY DON’T YOU COME AND VISIT US AND TALK TO US IN PERSON AND MAYBE SHOW US HOW IT SHOULD BE DONE.,))
ONE THING THAT I FIND HARD TO SWALLOW AT TIMES IS THAT SOMEONE CAN COME ON HERE, READ THE JOURNAL/BLOG AND MAKE A SNAPPY DECISION THAT WE ARE OR ARE NOT DOING IT RIGHT. THAT I AM OR AM NOT A GOOD MASTER AND SHE IS OR ISN’T A GOOD SLAVE. IF THIS BLOG/JOURNAL WAS A BOOK, IT WOULD BE LIKE THE READERS ONLY GET TO READ MAYBE ONE OR TWO PAGES OF EACH CHAPTER. EACH CHAPTER CONSISTING OF SCORES OF PAGES. AND THAT’S NOT ENOUGH TO MAKE JUDGEMENTS LIKE THIS ONE. ANYWAYS, I AM MADLY DEEPLY TRULY IN LOVE WITH HER.
THE CAPS ARE BEING USED TO SEPARATE THE PREVIOUS COMMENTS WITH MY COMMENTS.
THANKS FOR LISTENING,
S
Are you the same Anon who said they weren’t gonna read here anymore? Even if you’re not, what a coward you are. It’s so easy to come online and insult people when you don’t have to face up to anything. Would you say these things to her in person? Do you go around being this hateful and judgmental in your real life? I’m sure you’ll have some snappy comeback, whatever. Your life must be perfect since you feel entitled to judge everyone else’s.
Very, very well composed. :)
i always thought i wanted a career…and had one. We managed to incorporate BDSM despite that.
But now…(after being home for a few months)…i *don’t* want a career. i want to stay at home and take care of the house and the family…i want to be oppressed…lol…
Feminists don’t know what they’re missing!
Or they do, and chose otherwise anyway? Again, not a grass-is-greener situation. On the other hand, it might have something to do with the fact that we stink at homemaking. It does feel nice to do what you’re good at. ;)
Brilliant. I admire your ability to express yourself and your bravery for putting your opinions out there.
“My preference runs my life, and my life only.”
Bingo. This is why I enjoyed the peek into your perspective when shared earlier. I may not have your perspective but it’s still interesting. I wasn’t offended earlier because you took so much time to describe that it was your perspective and preferences. Because of that I really do have a great amount of respect for you and it’s why I enjoy your journal so much.
Interesting points brought up by the articles you quote. I agree. On the same level as men means taking on half the work, not expecting men to pick up the tab for dinner, not having the door opened, ect. As a note to that – because I believe in the equality between genders I’m completely befuddled as to why young women aren’t required to sign up for the draft like young men are. Try telling that to a bunch of radical feminists! I don’t see it as fair to claim equality and get the special treatment.
I do worry about the pressures that have come from the contemporary women’s movement. That women have to be everything – career women, mothers, have all domestic matters under control, and make a relationship work. It’s an impressive load and I’m not sure how many people can really excel in all areas at once, the strain is certainly making itself evident. Oddly enough I can relate as someone who is childfree (no desire to reproduce). My personal choices are used against me to make me seem less a women, lazy, or out of my mind because I don’t want to juggle with the added responsibility. Like somehow I’m letting women down by admitting that I couldn’t do the juggling act, by being honest and saying I can’t “have it all” and be sane at the end of the day. It’s a different perspective on the pressures women are under I think – not even going to go into the ‘submissive to the man in my life’ issue.
The issues most people have with ‘traditional roles’ for women is that it’s been painted as classic oppression. Now-a-days it’s not oppression but a valid lifestyle choice. It’s simple, it’s scary to a lot of people that submission (as opposed to aggression which is valued in our society) is a comfortable and fulfilling option to some of us.
Oh wow, sorry for the ramble. I feel bad for going on so long. Either way, thank you for being brave enough to write these posts and let your readers in.
Kaya
First of all, I’m in a hurry and dont want to use spellcheck so sorry
I imagine you get a nice little sideways grin going when you post something that is on your mind that you know will provoke equal responses on both sides of the issue
In a way I think you do because you have a strong personality and this is an outlet for you and you like it when people respond to you with their thoughts – maybe if you could respond with a more nuetral answer to the negative as well as the positive vs snarky pissed off answers those who are not posting their names on here would be less provoked to come back. But then again, those who are here to learn may learn from the assholes as well as the followers.
I think the personal attacks from unknown sources are important to keep on here but I think it is equally important for you to not respond to them with anger – it breeds a desire in them to come back and feed you with more of the negativity. Why waste your time on such crap?
This is a place where you write about your thoughts on specific topics or anything you want – keep it that way, post and read comments but they don’t need to be responded to positive or negative. Pick and choose carefully, because if you respond, your acknolwedging them.
Your life is full and happy and I’d much rather see you having make up sex then being hurt by others reactions to your thoughts that you post while your going on your morning walk.
Kisses
Sunni
I would just like to say that there is more than one type of feminism, and not all of them agree with one another.
There are even those who believe that S&M is the only type of consensual sex out there.
It made me sad when women don’t understand that there is more than one type and group them all together.