(This is further thought on the possibility of M/s with children and careers that I talked about in the last half of this post.)
I’ve been trying to come up with another, better, way to explain what I meant in that other post. Because it seemed like people were thinking I meant that M/s isn’t possible *at all*, or that there is some book of guidelines somewhere. Which is silly, of course, because there are no guidelines except your own. The intimate details of what you and your partner define your relationship by are your own.
But I tend to separate the descriptive terms of ‘Master and slave’ from the process of internalizing enslavement. And that’s where I think the confusion is.
I wholeheartedly agree that being someone’s slave is accomplished merely by being, and doing, whatever it is that your Master wishes. I am not a slave fit for anyone other than my own Master, just as none of you would fit with him. He’s made me be what HE wants, and by the very basic definition of ownership, we’re Master and slave. In someone else’s opinion, I’m not a slave at all. I may not even fit their expectation of a submissive, let alone a slave. But none of that matters a whit to us because we fit each other.
I don’t think it’s defined by how much pain you can take, or by whether or not you’re online or living together, sharing a marriage bed or kept in a kennel, or any of the other fine, minute details of how you do it.
I also think that any of us who truly are dedicated to pleasing our Masters, and who have Masters dedicated to owning us, take what we do very seriously, give it our all (mostly) every day, take pride in our roles and find extreme joy and pleasure (usually) in it.
But I don’t think *any* of that is the same thing as internalizing slavery. I think that internalizing things is not easy, it is a long process and certain things can not only hamper that process but make it entirely impossible, no matter how strong your dedication is.
About the only analogy that I can compare it to is the institutionalization that occurs to prisoners. A lot of people want to deny the existence and validity of the internalization of slavery, but it’s pretty hard to deny the validity of institutionalization, I’d think.
So let’s operate under the assumption that institutionalization is real, it is a long-term psychological “trauma”. Prisoners come to a place, mentally, where they are unable to function in society (or believe they cannot). They’ve internalized the values and modes of prison life and behavior as “normal”. What lies outside this new “norm” is fearful, terrifying, unwanted. So much so that they go to lengths to not have to leave. Committing new crimes to get back to what is their comfort zone, among other things (we’ve all seen The Shawshank Redemption? Remember Brooks?)
So if we can agree that institutionalization is a real affliction, we should also be able to agree that there are certain instances where institutionalization probably *could not* happen.
It probably is not going to happen if you are doing a 30-day stint in the county jail for unpaid parking tickets.
It probably is not going to happen if you are under house-arrest.
It probably is not going to happen if you are doing 1-3 for tax evasion.
It’s also unlikely to happen if, while in prison, even long-term, the prisoner is allowed access to things and activities that combat the psychological break-down that creates institutionalization. Getting an education, working, contact with family and friends, interactions, conversations that stimulate the mind, being prepared for civilian life. If you never completely remove the intricacies of civilian life, I’m not sure how one could completely lose touch with it.
We agree? Yay! I knew you would. ;-)
I don’t think that M/s is on par with being in prison. But I do think the internalization process is similar. I think that internalizing a new norm, new behaviors, new concepts, all of those things are more *difficult*, if not impossible, to do when one is constantly and consistently still exposed to the “old” norms of society. And if you are working and raising kids, you can’t pull yourself out of society completely. You still have to maintain a level of society-defined normalcy.
And maybe some of you don’t. Maybe you don’t maintain that normalcy for the sake of your kids or to appease your boss. There are always going to be exceptions.
So every little thing that plucks away the hand of control limits the process of internalization. A job, a child, school, friends.. whatever. If your Master is not also your employer, then he is deferring control of you to your boss. When playtime is curtailed because Baby Jane puked in her crib, he’s deferred power to your child. You have to be untied because class starts in an hour? Loss of control.
None of that is a *bad* thing, or a negative judgment, or anything like that. They are merely things that combat the process of internal enslavement. If you view internal enslavement as brainwashing, you should be able to understand how difficult it would be to brainwash someone if you are, on a daily basis, sending them off somewhere where all of your hard work is systematically being erased.
But what if Master has ordered you to work? Or ordered you to go to school or ordered you to bear his child? I think that’s a slippery slope. Because no matter what the reason for doing it is, they are still things that limit control and power. And the more limitations you have, the more impossible it becomes.
Do I think it can happen *anyway*, with, as Sinn said, a really diligent Master and slave? Maybe. Maybe if all of the pieces fell perfectly in place… but I think what is more likely to happen is that the pair of them will think they are doing it, up until a time comes when each of those interferences start to disappear and they get the perspective of comparison and realize they weren’t.
Just look at the differences that occur when the kids go to grandma’s for the weekend. I know for us it’s a profound difference, not only in our playtime and sessions but merely in our mannerisms and behavior. So of course I expect there to be a world of difference when the kids actually move out. Once I have that other perspective, I betcha a dime to a dollar that I’m discussing how much we *didn’t* have it before. We just thought we did.
I already have the perspective on the differences between working and not working and how working creates another huge limitation on things, no matter that it is HIS decision and his order that I go back to work. That doesn’t change the interference of it any just because he’s making me do it.
I also know how incredibly different it was when he was traveling and gone all week and when he’s home every day. It’s monumentally HUGE the difference that makes. Yet, back when he was gone all the time I would have *sworn* we had it then, too.
I think you just don’t know until you actually experience the difference.
Besides, there is no Eden, there is no castle to hole up in and do what it is that we do to the extent that we want to do it. We’re not independently wealthy or living in some lawless country where we can do whatever we want. We’re all already limited in many ways merely by society itself. And every limitation you add to that makes it that much harder.
So when is it so limited as to be non-existent? Ever? Never? Does nobody recognize the limits simply because they *feel* dedicated to it?
Fact is, I’m an opinionated bitch really. Which has served me well today. I haven’t thought about the tack bra for an hour! ;-)
~cunt
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