“It is a smaller thing to suffer punishment than to have deserved it”
Master never lets me online anymore. Srsly! I try and cram in like 20 minutes when I get home from work in the morning, but after that, nothing. Like He thinks I should be focused on Him and on my chores. The nerve!
So I’ve really really missed the routine I used to have of posting at this time of night when He was away. The house is quiet, I’m relaxed, I’m just sleepy enough to babble incessantly. It’s my favorite time to journal. And He is not here to tell me no. 
I have punishment on the brain (go figure). The need for it, the use of it, people’s attitude toward it. I’ve read a few things, some that were insulting, some that were understandable, some that were downright brilliant.
When I first discovered the world of bdsm, I thought punishment was a part of it for everybody. That consequences logically followed rules and expectations. The struggle for control, the bending of wills, working to learn obedience – discipline and punishment. In my naivety, I thought a lot of things were universal; that we’d all get along, that we were all on the same path and that we’d all end up in the same place. Oh what a rude awakening I had coming to me.
I’m curious now what people think of punishment, what you all think. What place does it have in your bdsm relationship, and if you aren’t in one, what place do you think it should have, if any? What is your opinion of those who “play punish”? What do you think of couples who disguise their kink behind domestic discipline? Do you think the word ‘punishment’ is incorrectly used, when a more appropriate word like discipline or training is more fitting?
Are you of the mindset that a submissive should just behave and that punishment of any sort is ridiculous? Is there a point where repeated punishments for the same offense seem to point to a deeper problem?
If punishment is a factor in your life, is there/has there been any struggle to find one that works? Have you, as a masochist-submissive, willfully been disobedient purely for the sake of being punished? If the whole punishment “scene” is an actual admitted kink of yours, can you also have genuine punishments that don’t trip the trigger? Is it possible to maintain the punishment dynamic if you don’t both have some element of punishment kink? I mean, if there isn’t some area of eroticism about it for one of you, do you see it working in any capacity?
And lastly, does anyone who does incorporate punishment in their lifestyle acknowledge the extreme difference between a punishment spanking and a non-punishment spanking and how one cannot replace the other? That simply “asking to be spanked” does not scratch the right itch or feed the right hunger or soothe the right burn.. that there is something, something heavy and sinfully exciting and deeply satisfying that is only ever touched by being harshly, forcefully, and thoroughly punished… that no matter how good you want to be, no matter how much you dislike His disappointment, no matter how ashamed you may be… it’s there and it’s strong and maybe, just maybe… it’s conquering that need that is the real path to submission? Or is it? Is it just another harmless but misunderstood fetish, just another point for people to judge or claim superiority on because they’ve never felt it in that way.
What do you think?
Tags: punishment, rambles
Uncategorized | kaya | 
Thursday May 15th, 2008 9:57pm
I’ll be the first to comment on this one for ya. For me, as a Dom, the meaning behind the play spanking and the punishment spanking is entirely different. Being a sadist, your pain normally will lead me to desiring you, sadism equals sex, plane and simple. I enjoy it, it makes me hot, and I it makes sex way mucho better for me..for you?? That I don’t know too much. However, the punishment spanking is not for sex. Not even in the picture. The rules have been broken, and the slave must pay a price. I have found that slaves need rules, structure, and must be held accountable for the rules. Punishment is about reinforcing the rules and boundaries that a slave lives by. My two cents, anyway….Prof
But as a sadist, do you find yourself getting turned on during a punishment spanking? If so, what do you do about it? If you have sex, wouldn’t you then be “rewarding” (of sorts) the slave by fucking her? And if you don’t have sex, aren’t you effectively punishing yourself by denying yourself something?
In the beginning when I first discovered BDSM, I was one that would do things I broke rules that my Dominant would tell me to do, in order to get pain. I’m a masochist and I felt that the only way I would get pain was to act out. But in acting out I disappointed my Dominant, so it gave me mixed emotions.
With Master, I was guilty of the same thing in the beginning. We early on said the belt was for punishment, because I hate the belt and that has worked for us. I have also learned that if I need pain and need to hurt that I can tell Him and He will find time with that.
That’s my 2 cents.
When you ask for pain, does it fulfill you in the same way as punishment pain or is it different? Did the pain you used to get as a punishment fulfill you at all?
When I was owned, I hardly ever got punished. Even when I pushed purposely. Not to get punished, but just…testing, I guess.
I think is very important in a d/s relationship.
Not to compare a slave with a child. But it is kinda the same concept. You learn by doing right and getting praise, and by doing wrong and getting punished.
Besides all that, it serves as a reminder that you are owned. You follow his rules, or else.
~~jane
Do you think that when you pushed purposely and got no punishment, that it was very damaging to your relationship? I mean, did you feel that when you crossed the boundaries and was ignored, or at least not reprimanded, did you feel uncontrolled? Did you need that reminder of being owned and found that it wasn’t there when you tested?
wow kaya……..those were a lot of questions….. almost worth a blog of my own (cheeky grin – you know those dry spells i have!!)
But to generalize about punishments and speaking only from my own experience…..
A punishment is not a fun scene for us – it is not some code that means i am due a session…. it means i have screwed up and am gonna get whalloped……. or some other appropriate punishment.
Punishments used to happen a lot at the beginning of our relationship.. and i think at times Sir must have been pulling His hair out……. BUT the punishments have decreased tremendously.. i have no desire – not even a hidden one – to be punished……
Usually now i am punished for walking into a room without permission ……. then the punishment stick comes out and i “assume the position” and am given as many strokes as Sir deems necessary – sometimes i must count them.. sometimes i don’t have to…. i am not supposed to move.. and i am supposed to take them gracefully (yeah right!!) They always hurt…….. and not in a good way….. i can never get my mind around the fact i am being punished….
Sometimes i get right royally pissed off about it.. feeling like i got tricked….. or that the whole thing is just not fair.. and Sir is plain mean!! Those times are usually the hardest on both of us…… i will cry and stamp my foot and almost throw a temper tantrum.. when it is over i will have to give Him the hug (that always ends a punishment) and i will do it with little enthusiasm.. i don’t want Him to feel that *i* think it is over.. even though it is.. and won’t be mentioned again…… i steam a little bit inside.. rail against the unfairness of it all (always in my head) and then calm down and realize i asked for this.. i broke the rules .. i knew the consequences.. and finally decide i am really mad at me not Sir.
The hardest punishments i have had to endure is when one of the other play mates is over and i get caught up in being the bossy sub and forget my true place….. to be punished in front of the “others” is really humiliating for me.. especially since Sir expects me to be an example to them………
Personally i believe if punishments work for a couple then no one has the right to say otherwise……
morningstar (owned by Warren)
How does your Sir feel about the times when you get mad about the punishment? Is He calm and just waits for you to come around, does He get angry or frustrated back at you? Do you think that you are, in some tiny way (which is all we subs have sometimes!), trying to “punish” Him back for punishing you when you withold that hug (and does the hug also equal forgiveness that you find difficult to give right away?).
I can definitely see why being punished in front of others is hard. That you are supposed to be both in a sense, Domme and sub, at the same time. I imagine the lines blur pretty easily in the heat of the moment? Once you’ve been punished and put back in your place, do you find it difficult to find the mindset of the Alpha sub again?
I used to have a serious problem with “play punishment”. That was back in the beginning when I thought everyone should be doing it the same way and those that did it differently than me were way wrong. Along that same pattern of thinking was that play punishment gave those of us that used punishment the way punishment is meant to be used a bad name (Yes, I really was this arrogant… I’m trying not to be now.).
I still think it’s backwards. Just as I think the “negative attention is better than no attention” mindset is backwards (though I’m guilty of it at times myself)(by way of mouthing off).
I get the whole “Oooo you’ve been a baaaad girl! I’m gonna spank you!” thing. And I guess in a role-playing scene it has its place. But calling it punishment, even qualifying it with “play punishment”, still seems a little… backwards to me. By definition, punishment is not something enjoyable. However, I’m also not sure what they should call it if being “punished” gets them off. I’m good at pointing out problems without a solution to offer.
What about those who need that label to make their kink feel okay? Like, someone who isn’t entirely comfortable with just beating someone for the sake of beating them needs to say to themselves or to the other person “you were bad and so I need to punish you.” But I don’t want to confuse that with the whole playful “Oooo you’ve been a baaaad girl! I’m gonna spank you!” type thing either. I’m thinking of something much more serious, but still…. dishonest, I guess(?) in the approach.
I understand play punishment-
What I’m thinking of is…. say the Dom trumps up reasons to punish, maybe He needs to do that to get into the headspace of being able to beat her and it doesn’t have to be fun or cute or anything and that’s okay because she was bad and it’s His job to correct her, to punish her….
or on the flip side, she’s not able to submit to a beating without a laundry list of genuine mistakes, but they might not even be things the Dom cares about as far as rules being broken or whatever.. but she needs that excuse to rationalize her need for correction or pain or dominance or whatever.
And do you think that typical DD relationships are something like that? A “normal” desire for pain and dominance masked by so-called loving correction?
I really don’t have answers to most of those questions. Like I said, I’m good at pointing out problems without solutions.
I know there are people like that. I’ve known a few. It’s just when it comes down to the BDSM Bible of Melen and rayne (iow – the way we do things, not the way things should be done) there is (and has to be or I get into a funk for days after a session cause I’m too embarrassed to say “I felt like you were punishing me… were you?”) a huge distinction between play and punishment.
I guess to those who feel they need to have reasons to beat their slave/submissive/bottom/whatever, I would say spend a little more time researching and getting yourself comfortable with your own desires before venturing too far down this path. The dishonesty of pulling together a laundry list of transgressions to beat a bottom for could cause irreparable damage to the relationship. It could cause feelings of inadequacy and low self esteem along with all sorts of complexes. Especially if the sadist enjoys playing like this often. I know I would eventually be whining something about always being in trouble and never being good enough before too long.
And I’m sure some DD relationships are exactly that. But there are quite a few that just honestly believe a woman should be submissive to her husband.
I’m not sure if this makes sense or is saying what I want it to. I probably shouldn’t have posted until later in the day. It’s almost six am and I’m slightly hung over. And it’s off to work I go!!
We don’t have punishments per se… there are consequences to breaking rules, and I suppose you could categorize those as punishments but they’ve been pretty firmly installed in my mind as “consequences.” I wouldn’t say I punish G either (unless I’m really in fine immature pissy form – which unfortunately happens from time to time) but there are consequences to him breaking agreements in our relationships, understandings, etc. Generally – there are reactions or consequences to all of our actions on both sides – both positive and negative. “punishment” consequences fall into that category for me.
In terms of play punishments… I don’t know how my perspective may differ because I am not much of a masochist and G is not a sadist. We both like intensity, but not necessarily pain. So if there’s a little repartee and sass going on with some returned swats and all – it’s all in fun and we’re both aware of that. If I need a cathartic release through physical pain, I tell G that – and either he helps me, or I find someone else for it (with his permission.)
As to people acting out to get punished – I think it’s manipulative and immature to be honest. Good relationships have a space for all needs to be expressed and acknowledged without prejudice (and hopefully space to collaboratively find a way for those needs to be met.) If the need can’t be honestly acknowledged or honestly met, it would not be a relationship I would want to be anywhere near because it’s not a very honest one.
As to people acting out to get punished – I think it’s manipulative and immature to be honest. Good relationships have a space for all needs to be expressed and acknowledged without prejudice (and hopefully space to collaboratively find a way for those needs to be met.) If the need can’t be honestly acknowledged or honestly met, it would not be a relationship I would want to be anywhere near because it’s not a very honest one.
In the comment right above yours I was trying to ask something that speaks to your quote (but this is really hard to explain in the manner I’m thinking of it!) What I said in the other comment was this:
“What I’m thinking of is…. say the Dom trumps up reasons to punish, maybe He needs to do that to get into the headspace of being able to beat her and it doesn’t have to be fun or cute or anything and that’s okay because she was bad and it’s His job to correct her, to punish her….
or on the flip side, she’s not able to submit to a beating without a laundry list of genuine mistakes, but they might not even be things the Dom cares about as far as rules being broken or whatever.. but she needs that excuse to rationalize her need for correction or pain or dominance or whatever.”
I can see that some of us are much more introspective, much more accepting of our kinks and our needs… is it really dishonesty if someone isn’t quite as comfortable with these sorts of desires, as you and I may be, and uses, or needs, something to hide behind?
I mean I know it IS, on it’s face, it’s dishonest… but is it BAD necessarily? Something that would be, as you said, “not a relationship I would want to be anywhere near”?
I dunno. Im just thinking.
Kaya,
I think what you’re describing here, the need to have a “wrong” to be “punished” is the same type of dishonesty that makes there only be one answer to the question, “Does this make me look fat?” It’s the equivalent of the social lie, done not to decieve, but to put everhone at ease. Similarly, some D/s couples need that “play misbehavior” for whatever reason, from an inability to ask for the kink directly to having simply been taught that such is the “right” way to play. Like all social lies, everyone involved knows what’s really going on and no one is hurt, so there shouldn’t be a serious beef.
Dave
What place does it have in your bdsm relationship, and if you aren’t in one, what place do you think it should have, if any?
What is your opinion of those who “play punish”? What do you think of couples who disguise their kink behind domestic discipline? Do you think the word ‘punishment’ is incorrectly used, when a more appropriate word like discipline or training is more fitting?
Punishment isn’t in our life in any shape or form. We communicate with words – I don’t see the point. It doesn’t do a damn thing for us. It doesn’t change what happened and any behavior your partner doesn’t like in you should be addressed in communication not fear or pain. I often think about the child spanking argument when this discussion comes in up BDSM relationships.
Are you of the mindset that a submissive should just behave and that punishment of any sort is ridiculous? Not possible to “behave” like a robot – if you do then where is the “person”? Remember, you used the word submissive so a sub is still a person – not a cunt in the cupboard or slave in a box.
Is there a point where repeated punishments for the same offense seem to point to a deeper problem? Absolutely to break the cycle –
Your last 2 questions – in scenes that are fun and those that are punishment the brain is already in overdrive for what it is going to be or the initial meaning of it was going to be and the two are not alike so the results are not either. If your Master/Dom thinks that by talking about a punishment is going to get you to stick your ass up in eager anticipation he/she has a lot to learn about his/her submissive. However, I’m certain there are relationships out there where it starts as punishment and somehow slides right into the pleasure zones. The opposite also happens – starts out as fun, sub doesn’t get into the right head space or flips her Master/Dom off or just doesn’t go about it right and it turns into punishment.
Evil thin line that I don’t care to cross – we don’t use punishment in our lives – we use communication
now when it comes to punishment as in taking away computer time, or dessert, or some other favorite “toy” – then yes, if the punishment fits the crime. Such as your failure to call him because you were fiddling with the website. I’m certain if that was us I’d of not had computer rights for at least a week if not longer and I’d have a laundry list of things to do in it’s place – do you learn from those punishments? I would -
Ah, but see I think fear has it’s place in a bdsm relationship. Depending, of course, on what it is you are wanting out of the relationship. But then I also think fear has it’s place in a lot of things.
I’m curious as to why you think of punishment of a physical sort in this way – “I don’t see the point. [...] It doesn’t change what happened and any behavior your partner doesn’t like in you should be addressed in communication not fear or pain” yet, you do see the purpose and value behind punishment in the manner of restricting privileges? Why is it any different?
Is the difference that you see purely the fear and pain? Do you think that you feel that way because you are a masochist and know that pain feeds a different desire than being without a computer?
I’m certain if that was us I’d of not had computer rights for at least a week if not longer and I’d have a laundry list of things to do in it’s place – do you learn from those punishments? I would -
That is one of His popular punishments, as well writing lines, doing chores, and other restrictions. I learn from them just as well as I learn from a spanking from that stick. Generally a punishment is both a spanking AND a loss of some privilege. Not restricting me from the computer on this particular occasion was because He was travelling at the time and restricting me would have also been a punishment to Himself, as He’d have lost the time we spend together online when He’s away.
Or so I think. Honestly, it does little good to try and figure out His methods or reasons for a particular punishment. He does what He feels like at the time is the basic truth. *shrug*
It doesn’t change what happened and any behavior your partner doesn’t like in you should be addressed in communication not fear or pain” yet, you do see the purpose and value behind punishment in the manner of restricting privileges? Why is it any different?
good question – I think it is different for “me/him/us” – they just don’t produce the same results and future behavior.
Is the difference that you see purely the fear and pain? Do you think that you feel that way because you are a masochist and know that pain feeds a different desire than being without a computer? – I think so – I think your right on how this works for me.
That is one of His popular punishments, as well writing lines, doing chores, and other restrictions. I learn from them just as well as I learn from a spanking from that stick. Generally a punishment is both a spanking AND a loss of some privilege. Not restricting me from the computer on this particular occasion was because He was travelling at the time and restricting me would have also been a punishment to Himself, as He’d have lost the time we spend together online when He’s away.
I think he punishes you with the restricted privlidges etc and he gets turned on with the spanking/ass fucking, i.e whatever sexual punishment you receive. Putting a “sexual” in front of the word “punishment” turns me on though – I wonder why I”m turned on by that if I think/feel that sexual punishment doesnt work for us? why does it still turn me/him/us on?
#1 I am not a masochist, but Master is most definitely a sadist, so while I enjoy his attention as he beats and fucks me, and most certainly bask afterwards in the glow of that physical manifestation of his control, I would never entertain the idea of “bratting” to get that attention, that beating, speaking, whatever the case may be.
I firmly believe to each his own. If *punishment* is someone’s kink and they roleplay it and they enjoy it, right on! Yet, I have read so many journals where submissives/slaves speak of manipulating (that’s what it really is, after all) their dominant to get attention, and I admit that that drives me up the wall. That’s not punishment, that is absolute manipulation on the part of the bottom to get their desires met under the guise of D/s and/or M/s, rules, protocols, etc. Call it what it is. (IMO!)
I have been punished a total of 4 times in 3 years…once for being late, once for cumming during sex w/out permission, once for smoking after I had quit, and once for a domestic service error. I was crushed emotionally at disappointing my Master and you can bet your ass I will NEVER repeat those mistakes. The paddling was nothing compared to the feeling of having let him down but those paddlings/spoonings were quick, brutal, and pretty fucking persuasive. I simply felt awful. No other way to articulate it.
I think punishment/discipline definitely has its place in our M/s relationship, but not as “playtime” and certainly not as a normal part of our SM dynamic. He doesn’t get off on it, as my disobedience is what prompted his actions. And disobedience is not our “kink”.
Great post kaya!
~just-say-no-to-wooden-paddles-and-spoons,
magpie (hater of wood implements)
I wonder if you’d think differently if you were a masochist.
It’s interesting how much of a dividing wall masochism can be when it comes to conversations like this, because I, personally, can easily understand the whole manipulative attempts to get punished. That’s not to condone them, I just GET it. Although, I really don’t like the term ‘manipulate’ because it has such negative connotations, and it’s really not like that. (though Im sure it is for some, it never was for me. Not like that, not in the “shrewd, evil” way that ‘manipulate’ implies.)
btw, I made your shephard’s pie recipe for dinner the night before Master left and He LOVED it. nom nom nom!
You know, when I began that post, that was most definitely why I began it with the non-masochist disclaimer as I thought there would probably be a different perspective for someone that truly IS a masochist.
I think I am a mental masochist. I get off on the power differential which is evidenced by so many facets of the relationship. And I do get off on cruelty from him, just not pain per se. I am hottest the day after a rape, (oh god, the use of that word will probably set off a firestorm somewhere, sorry kaya) where I’ve been put to sleep (made to go night-night, lol) in a choke-hold, or I’ve got a busted lip from being gagged, or I lose feeling in the tips of my fingers for days from his fondness for very restrictive bondage. But normally, being passed out via blood constriction or any of those other things is not really a traditional punishment like spankings, paddlings, etc. So I really wouldn’t “act out” for those things as they’re all components of our relationship normally. Does that make sense? But I do get your point.
Additionally, I also see your point on the word “manipulate”. While nothing I’ve read from you would indicate you’re one that does it often, I have read of those that do, that know they do it, that even go so far as to brag about it, and all the while continue to perceive their dynamic as a true D/s or even M/s dynamic. I just can’t wrap my brain around it.
I am glad the meal went over well!!!
Your crock pot meatloaf is on the menu for Wednesday night, lol. AND, off-topic as this is, I am looking for interesting beef recipes (not hamburger either). Anyone care to share?
I would like to see thoughts from you on masochism. My fantasies are much the same as yours as far as the sexual psychopaths, rape, denigration, and certainly pain is very much a part of that but the trigger for me is the absolute control, rather than the physical pain. I think it would make for a fascinating conversation! (I love to be single-tailed though. It hurts. But I crave it. Before and after. Never during. I don’t understand.)
Sorry this is so long!
~magpie
Would you believe I’ve been sitting here for almost an hour stuck on the word “rape”? This is just too fucking coincidental! I want to use it, yet, just as you said.. I’m thinking of the shit storm it might cause. Weird!
I’d like to talk masochism too! Someday soon, we’ll have to do that. It’s a fascinating topic (I think anyway!)
I’ll keep my eyes and ears open for beef recipes.
I don’t have a whole lot to add, because I’m still new at this, I just wanted to say “Hi” and to let you know I visited.
I have “bratted” recently, but my Master and i are still new at this, so i will learn, in time, i’m sure to not do that. 
Great blog, i’m going to link to it on my blog, if that is okay.
Hi
Nice to see you here!
I’m not so sure yet that “bratting” isn’t a legitimate form of submission. I’m still working on it.
“I’m curious now what people think of punishment, what you all think. What place does it have in your bdsm relationship, and if you aren’t in one, what place do you think it should have, if any? What is your opinion of those who “play punish”?”
I may be your only regular reader who is not now or has ever been in a BDSM relationship, but since I don’t judge the choices anyone makes, I’d like to contribute to the discussion. Whether it’s called punishment, discipline, penalties, shunning or sentencing for crimes, there are active and passive ‘corrections’ all around us. No matter what name is used or setting its in or form it takes, it all seems geared to some form of behavior modification to assure that rules or strictures are enforced.
Whether it’s society itself, a relationship between two people, or an interdependent community of any type, the formality of the arrangement depends upon rules established by and for that grouping. To keep the rules effective, order – including a method of correction – must be enforced. Otherwise, anarchy reigns.
Perhaps the real question should center on whether correction works and if it doesn’t, whether or not playing at correcting for some rule infraction isn’t a contributing factor to why it doesn’t. Most would agree that any punishment or correction should be immediate, consistently applied and designed with sufficient harshness to fit the ‘crime,’ but it is in consistency that things usually fall apart (at least, that’s the case with society in general) and it is when the concept of fun, games or entertainment becomes more important than the integrity of the situation that punishment loses it’s effectiveness.
If you’re serious about the life you lead and the way you live that life, you don’t just play at it. You actually discipline yourself to work at making it work and take your punishment when earned without expecting a spoonful of sugar to make it go down easier.
I agree! Finally, a comment that I have nothing to add to.
I find it curious when people make the claim that they have no consequences, no punishments to worry about, when in fact, consequences and punishments surround us in almost every aspect of life.
“Most would agree that any punishment or correction should be immediate, consistently applied and designed with sufficient harshness to fit the ‘crime,’ but it is in consistency that things usually fall apart (at least, that’s the case with society in general) and it is when the concept of fun, games or entertainment becomes more important than the integrity of the situation that punishment loses it’s effectiveness.”
Which is precisely what happened to us with this last punishment, and perhaps why I’m thinking about it so hard. It wasn’t effective, not as it should have been and it was lost in the play of the day.. and yet I don’t feel that I wasn’t held accountable for my mistakes either. I think the actual punishment was done in the days leading up to it. The spanking was a mere formality.
Thank you for a wonderful comment.
Kaya,
First, let me reassure Kaz that he is not alone in being a vanilla reader. As you already know kaya, I have never been involved in BDSM, though I do write about it. Now, as for your post…
Yes! An invitation to ramble! Seriously, I think the comments so far make it pretty clear that there is a lot of differences out there. I found that out years ago while reading the D/s boards on the old prodigy network. One of the ongoing undercurrents in my “real BDSM” stories is that there are as many ways to play/live D/s as there are people who do it. My central character, Valerie, is very submissive and “doesn’t like pain.” Yet, she accepts it regularly because for her, submissive is about giving up her choices, letting her dominant/Master have his way with her. One of her friends, however, is a classic pain slut, loving the pain for it’s own sake (remind you of anyone?), to the point that she is willing to allow someone to use a true bull whip on her (provided s/he is skilled enough to not maim her with it).
There are other characters that demonstrate other types of dominants and submissives, vfrom the 24/7 live in slave with no safe words and no property or anything else, to the boondage only sub, who simply likes being tied up and for whom anything punishment-like, let alone ainful doesn’t even enter into to the picture. (Yes, there’s even a character who “misbehaves” on purpose to earn punishments)
My point is that different styles of play/life will not only have different ideas about punishment vs. play, but will demand differences. Just as you, Kaya, and Blue and Toy do not have safe words because having them would ruin your M/s relationships, so to do others, such as Obediant Peresphone, have safe words, because their relationships need them and can’t function properly without them. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying that this post is pointless, it isn’t. It’s a great post in that it gives all of us readers a chance to really see just how diverse the BDSM universe is.
It’s far too easy to see only that with which we are familiar becaus that’s what we see every day. It’s a lot like the illusion that the news creates about the state of the world. If you only looked at the news, one would think that the world has gone to hell in a handbasket, since there is nothing but bad news reported. But the truth is that the world is, for the most part, a pretty nice place, especially here in the US, it’s just that good news isn’t interesting for whatever reason. Likewise, when all someone sees is the SSC life of BDSM, you think of the few that don’t practice SSC (safe sane consensual) as the aberation, when in fact, those people are no more or less wierd than anyone else. In gact, IMHO those who profess to not practice SSC are as safe, sane and as consensual as those who do pratice SSC, just on different terms and initial assumptions.
As for the questions you asked, “what role should punishment have in a BDSM reationship?” this is probably the wrong question to ask (I can’t answer what place it has in mine, having no such relationship). I think that punishment is always there, acknowleged or not. Some have the very formal differentaition between play and punishment (I have a couple in my stories who split it three ways, play, punishment and discipline). Others, many of them part timers, have an understanding that the punishments are play, such as ordering one to not cum and then driving them to the orgasm so that they can be punished. There are some, I suspect, that the punishment is simply the knowledge that there has been a failure. The emotional weight on the sub/slave of knowing that s/he has disapointed the dominant is worse than any physical punishment that could be inflicted. Of course, there are those relationships where the idea of failing is absent because the failure is the equivalent of giving a safe word. These couples have the understanding that, in their BDSM play, the dom never asks/commands the sub to do or accept anything that they would not want to do. In these cases, the punishment is the ending of play and goes on the partner that “went too far.”
Anyway, that’s my take. I guess I think about this subject a lot more than most vanillas because it’s what I write about. I’m still trying to wrap my head around the fact that, according to my readers, I am so in tune with the lifestyle, yet I’ve never practiced. It’s a little mind numbing to think there are people out there taking my fictional stories as some sort of guide. Have fun with the discussion.
Dave
When I feel the need to punish it’s to correct a behaviour that I feel needs to be addressed. Punishment is outside the scope of “activities” of a sadistic nature. I usually stay away from punishments that could be mistaken for intense schenes. Hand cramps from writing out lines clearly cannot be mistaken for erotic play.
But to address the situation of can punishment become eroticised for either the punisher or the punishee. Zille has had me thinking on the topic for awhile now. She put the spotlight of clarity on a situation I hadn’t given much thought.
http://zilledefeu.wordpress.com/2008/04/18/accepting-understanding-my-need-for-punishment/
Zille presents an interesting point of view regarding punishment fullfilling a need.
Masofitting is a distinct possibility for leading to behaviour that results in punishment, particilarily if the punishment fulfills the needs of the masofitter.
All-in-all its a very tangled web we weave in our simple S&m relationships.
I don’t understand the whole thing about deciding that some people are “hiding” their kink behind the idea of punishment. (Not you specifically, T, just in general I mean.) To me that seems judgmental and without logic. What if the whole *idea* of punishment is part of the kink in the first place? Then the couple using punishment or domestic discipline in their relationship are just doing what works for them. To suggest they’re too cowardly to just admit that one enjoys beating the other – or that one enjoys being beaten – isn’t fair. For some, punishment IS a kink.
And still, that doesn’t mean that punishment is actually a reward. From my experience, *during* a punishment, I would happily be anywhere else in the world if I could. I hate it. And yet, thinking about it afterward is sexy. Thinking about it from *within the relationship* is sexy. But being punished, in the moment, is not.
Because I don’t like pain. (It hurts.)
My kink is more to do with being punished.
And it has to be *real* in order for it to fulfill the need, so having my husband pretend I was a naughty baby for saying a bad word does nothing for me. But if I break one of his real rules (for example, always having my cell phone with me and turned on so he can reach me) then being punished for it is important. It’s both truly horrible and also very sexy. But in that order. Horrible during. Yummy after.
Course that’s just me and the rest of you are freaks.
You know, I hadn’t really ever thought about it that way. I think sadism is his kink, and punishment is mine. I really don’t dig on pain just for it’s own sake. I don’t enjoy pain scenes. That’s his think. But being brought into line… being reduced to that small thing that’s left when a big punishment is over… yeah, that gets me off. ‘Course, like you said it sucks during it.
think=thing
I’m a bit of a masochist so my punishments, the most effective ones at least, are not physical. They have to do with doing algebra problems or writing reports or writing (gag) sentences. Punishment of a physical sort is a part of my life, too. If it’s late at night or if Master just wants to have it over with, he will beat me with something I do not like… Like the evil green stick that haunts my dreams and leaves bloody open raised marks on my legs that sting for days and days and become purple bruises. Do Not Want.
We’re a domestic discipline couple, but we’re not disguising our kink. Domestic Discipline IS our kink.
There’s a huge difference between erotic spanking and punishment spanking. For erotic spanking, I can enjoy part of it, but with the punishment, I enjoy nothing, end up bruised and need to journal extensively to figure out my feelings about why I was punished and what my head space should be so I don’t end up punished again.
Master does have a punishment kink, but when I’ve really done something I need to be punished for, he uses punishments that aren’t erotic for either of us like the algebra or the sentences. It pisses him off that he has to “deal with me” on that level and makes me never ever EVER want to do whatever I did again to put him in such a foul fucking mood.
As for playing punishment, we haven’t done that but have nothing really to say toward folks who do. If it’s their kink, it’s their kink. If people want to run around with lace doilies on their heads beating each other with wet spaghetti, it’s their kink.
I dunno… lots of questions. Lots of thoughts.
I’ll never figure the punishment thing out. I want it. I need it. …I think. But when I get it, it pisses me right the fuck off, unless it’s a really bad one, & then I work through the pissed off, to the sorry for myself, to the just sorry, to the “oh please o please I never want you to be unhappy with me again.” But that’s a big damn punishment. And, to be honest, he just doesn’t do those — a handful of times in all our M/s relationship.
So I used to get unhappy that rules were put in place, but “punishment” wasn’t consistent. It used to make me act out. But all that did was make him withdraw, & things went to shit.
I wish punishment were part of our D/s. It makes me feel very very owned. It makes me feel very very safe, focused, and submissive. Except… I don’t know… Do I really wish it? In the reality? I think maybe I would wish it, but it’s not within my reality, so why think about it. I figured out that keeping up with rules and punishment was too draining for him. If it were his “thing,” it wouldn’t be, so I guess it’s not.
As for other people’s “play punishment” and all that other jazz — I could care less. Whatever flicks your bic.
I did need that reminder. We were very new to all this. I was not remremanding for doing wrong wether it was intentional or not. It was ignored and not noticed.
Now thinking about it I think it did have an effect on the relationship. I wasn’t getting any attention, and took it more as he was not doing his job as my teacher/owner.
I have not been owned for about a month now, and my heart is broken over it, but it seems the first thing to go is punishment, then praises, then the rest just falls apart too.
~~jane
Ok so here it goes form the worlds worest speeler plus i am deslixic so in my defens a speel check dose not always work eaither so bear with me
Ok i have not been owned for 4 months now but i was for 7 months and he seem to go over the top with punisment buit then i am strong willed and stuborn about thing in general even when i am sumitting to hi which was a constant it takes alot to get me to get it not in my head but for me to feel it i have a tendecy to be able to push my emontions aside and take what ever so it had to be both mental and pysical for me i wount get into the details of the punisments but they worked fo r me but they also had to be over the top for me as well to get beyond that emontinal barre.
As far as punishment for paly sake i just think it is dumb but then agian i am a slave not a bottom or someone who dose this to spice up her life or sex life it is who i am what i need
Thank you Kaya for your post – and I enjoyed reading everyone’s answers to your questions… I’ve been pretty curious about “punishment” and especially being a masochistic submissive newbie in the whole BDSM scenario – D/s Lifestyle – whatever label/title chosen. Training, Discipline, Punishment are part of the dynamics of the relationship I am in; I need/crave structure, limits, rules, and to know there are consequences; He’s sadistic, I’m masochistic; He’s gonna get his kink on any time He inflicts pain, whether for pleasure or punishment, as for me, I can only guess that punishment is going to have some kind of sexual effect on me – either just the anticipation/adrenoline before or the effects after, if not the entire thing will be like it is when I have those incredibly taboo dreams and fantasies. I’m guessing – I will find out next weekend when He punishes me for my added up infractions. As for manipulating, bratty behavior, if I weren’t satisfied in the relationship, I can imagine that I’d possibly turn into a “brat” – but I also already know He’s not one to fall for that type of behavior, so it’s pretty moot.
We are a D/s couple; my Sir is a Sadist, i am a masochist.
that being said, yes, i do recieve punishment/discipline as needed for any misbehavior/misdeed; and it is not used for any “playtime” activity.
i can count on it being consistant, coming swiftly and is always appropriate; though not always given in a physical form.
and quite honestly, i absolutely hate being punished and the pain it brings. there is no doubt that a punishment spanking is very different than a sensuous erotic spanking given for O/our enjoyed pleasure.